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Hey guys,

Telling someone their list is 'horrible' without making an intelligent argument about why you think it is horrible is not constructive criticism and can only cause arguments to start.

Even just saying a list is 'one-dimensional' doesn't really explain what you're talking about.


And on the other side GBF, I think anytime anyone labels their list a "power" build you invoke the concept of the 'best list possible' and therefore you invariably are going to get 'take no holds' comments from people who have a different idea of what that very best list is.

I think if you just call your thread: 'SM 1,850 tournament list' and then in the post itself say your goal with the list is: 'to win as many games as possible in a tournament with no other considerations' you're likely to get less flat-out negative responses.

Hi yak

Certainly my definition of a power build is not the same as everyone else's. I appreciate your input here a lot and modified the title accordingly!

G

I didnt actually mean 1 dimensional as a slight.

I rather meant that with the obvious attack coming from a couple of CC terminator squads within LR's and no real other SERIOUS threats in the army, to me there just doesnt seem to be much that this army can actually "do".

That's what I meant by one dimensional. I find that to be an obvious weakness in this sort of list. The army does a single thing, if you can stop that single thing (or crack that single nut) the army is dead in the water.

Well, the one thing you HAVE TO stop at 40k tournaments is Orks. Orks come in an many flavors, as a great man once said 'its hard to make a bad Ork list', but so far we've seen Loota Shoota's and Bike Nobs of Death. I guess Bike Nobs are not really one dimensional in that they can shoot as well as close combat, but they are still two death dealing point sink units.

What do Orks have trouble with in the space marine army? Well, Landraiders. IF I am correct, the assault range for the LRC and Terminators is equal to the Bike Nob. LRC's will shoot either AC or LC at Bike Nobs who don't close in, maybe not much effect, maybe enough to make the squad vulnerable ...

Lootas are not much good against Landraiders.

OF course, there are Ork Battlewagon builds and other flavors, but this list looks good against some common ork builds.

Now the bad news...., Obliterators can deep strike. Guard with melta-guns can deep strike. MM Landspeeders can deep strike. Made my point, no? LotD have relentless multimeltas, SOB often pack melta weapons, so, enough said.

You'd better get on the top board against a slew of non-marine non-drop guard armies quick, or you won't ever get to play Orks. I think you could beat up on Eldar but are vulnerable to the lucky hit on a LR. I think shooty tyranid armies will cry.

I don't know where you find the points, but I wonder if you wouldn't be well off to take the marine bike character, and buy scout bikes as troops in small squads. All the better to annoy, contest objectives by turboboosting onto or across the board on the last turn. In other words, I don't know if I like the full size tactical squads, I don't know how much use you'll get out of the missile launchers.

I think you've missed out on something by not having marine librarian(s) in the army. I wonder if you wouldn't be better running the army as Black Templars for their psycho resisting abilities. I wonder if you shouldn't have Grey Knight allies with an IL and LR to distress Demon armies instead of 2 pure SM squads.

Mike your points regarding deep striking melta warrant a lot of concern. One option is to start with all units in reserve and deep strike the terminators. I will post a more complete response later tonight.

G

I see Oblits as the main threat to the LRCs. It is quite feasible that in one turn two separate units of Oblits could come in from reserve via Deep Strike and destroy both thanks. To be honest I don't see a lot of IG armies and I can count on one hand the number of times I have played against them in big tournaments. Chaos on the other hand is extremely popular and Oblits even more so.

I don't want to change the list that much and there are not a lot of points to play with after you add up the two expensive HQ, assault terminators and the two LRC. If I were to drop anything at this point it would have to be Marneus as I need Darnath to quickly kill the warbosses in assault. That would free up a lot of points... I would add another full troop choice and take some attack bikes with multi meltas.

If I were to face a Chaos army with a good number of Oblits I would start with my army in reserve and even possibly deep strike the terminator units. In objective based games my goal would be to move onto the objectives as quickly as possible and either hold or contest them.

Thanks for not calling me an idiot!

You may indeed be able to use tactics to minimize the risk from Melta weapons. Games where no one starts on the board are quite tactically interesting, although I hate playing them at the local friendly game store as the amount of dramatic dice throwing mayhem may be quite reduced.

Do you have smoke launchers?


The SM librarian infinity gate with a squad of melta armed Sternguard however will be a constant danger. I think that some kind of double librarian /Sternguard may be a plausible SM army type.That's why I'd review the rules on ILords vs. deep strike. You might need it in a tournament situation. (I don't know the rules on it that well myself....).

Many tactics are possible with landraiders, like walking them butt-end to butt-end across the field acting as a wall for your other squads.......

I haven't mathhammered out any of the other Marine choices against the NOB menace, which is actually pretty similar to the Seer Council menace. I don't know if a tooled up command squad or BT squad with Emperor's Champion could take on 7 Nob bikers and a warboss. Some hard analysis is needed to make the decision. If you can find something less expensive than the second full terminator squad then you might want to take it.

I also wonder if you should take the LR with the Flamers instead of the Hurricaine Bolters.

You are UK as I recall, and tournaments there seem to run a bit different that over here from my bat rep gleanings. Yes, there is a 'metagame'!

Please keep us posted on the Bat Rep section.

Best wishes,

Mike

My math hammer tells me that assault terminators with storm shields is the best way to take down nob bikers. Getting off the charge Is crucial for the much needed +1 attack. I think that with two LRC I have a great oppurtunity charge at least one nob biker squad...
That is 15 attacks with hammers and 7 - 8 should hit for let's say 6 wounds. The nobs will lose four. Now you are counting on Darnath to drop the warboss and possibly take 1 - 2 wounds in return. I will assume each nob with a PK has three attacks and there are 3 nobs armed with PKs for nine attacks. Six hit for two wounds. Termies have won the assault by several wounds, are under ten and there is a decent chance they will break. If they don't then it's onto another round of close combat the next turn. The nobs are now down to five and still have all their PKs. After this round of assault there is not much left on either side. If the nobs with PKs focus their attacks on Captain Lysander he make come through with one wound left. Lysander and the remaing termies focus all attacks on the nobs now and their is better chance they can break then now.

The next big obstacle is the other squad of nob bikers. This is where Marneus comes into play with his big gaunlets. There is also the orbital bombardment which can be quite good to say the least.

G

Marneus Calgar
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

Darnath Lysander
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino

Hey, G., give us some battle reports vs top tier lists.

I will after Christmas.

Cheers,
G

Hey, G., I'd give the Tacticals heavy flamers and missile launchers, since multimeltas are too short ranged.

I didn't know that tacticals can take heavy flamers now... anyways their range is much shorter than an MM.

G

I like it, although I've never played in a tourny before I reckon it would work but it dont get the Marneus Calgar and the Darnath Lysander what are the about?

GBF I have to say it takes a lot of nuggets to play a list like that. You know that there are many builds that can smoke that BUT, given the right mission, deployment and good generalship, I can see it working. I prefer normal terminators with Lysander for his "Bolter Drill" and keeping the Assault retinue with Calgar. Good luck with that. I would love to test the nob list against that.

Just curious but why the LRC's instead of just a normal Land Raider or a Land Raider Reedemer?

I think a LRR with a multimelta or two might be better for taking out horde armies. Or a Land Raider's Lascannons might be better for shooting at a vindicator

...

Did you actually just put someone on ignore for saying that an army with one specific play style is one dimensional? He wasn't even being insulting or anything he was calling a kettle black.

Words fail me buddy.

To add relevant critique, I agree with a lot of what's been said. I know you want to include Marneus but I think his points would be better spent on a third land raider for priority target saturation. You could toss a combat squad inside it to make it scoring and camp on your home objective taking pot shots at enemy armour.

Another option, seeing as your stated goal is "to win as many tourny games as possible" would be to substitute him for Shrike and a few more TH/SS terminators. Then your squads will be moving, deploying and charging like Dark Eldar but hitting like twelve tons of bricks.

PS your army is one dimensional. Ignore me :p

There are very few points left over if any for stuff like multi-meltas on the LRCs. I chose LRCs since they have the biggest capacity (don't necessarily need for the list as is now) and because they can lay down the most dakka. Certainly won't be needing the frag launchers! Heh.

G

Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

I think a standard terminator unit with Lysander makes sense -- you can use his bolter drill then. Then again if you really really wanna be ready for nob bikers then I guess the 3+ is needed.

I was considering a similar list but using a Lib instead of Lysander. The 190 point terminator/ storm shield variety with Null Zone and Vortex. That way you have some nice counters to various armies (null zone for terminator spam and daemons, hood for various psychic powers) while still having S10 available and the 3+ inv. Also (and this is more of a YMTC thing) there's an arugment to be made for not having God of War be usable for the units due to Lysanders chapter tactics. Another reason I'd lean toward the Lib. YMMV.

Also someone mentioned lash? Can't lash vehicles or units in them so lash is a bit neutered until mid-late game.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

How did the lysander/Clagaar combo fare?

Green Blow Fly wrote:Had a chance to play a nob biker list finally yesterday afternoon... The high point was an LRC tank shocking one unit of mounted boys off the table!

G

what were the contents of the list you played against? Did you win? what mission?

If you dropped marneus you can add a librarian and some attack bikes/land speeders. I know you'd lose the ST10 of lysander if you dropped him (you do gain 6 + 2d6 against vehicles), but I made an alt list that I think is a better for all comers.

HQ
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad 200
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250
Terminator Assault Squad 200

Troops
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35

FA
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70

HS
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250

1850 Total

I'm not sure if the psychic powers are optimal or not. Nullzone might be a better choice over one of those abilities.

" I think shooty tyranid armies will cry"

Nope, our tear ducts quite functioning soon after the 5th BRB came out :S

I think you kinda killed the intent of his army...

Shrike78 wrote:I think you kinda killed the intent of his army...

How? I haven't played in any tournaments, but unless the chance of pulling a Nob Biker army is above 50% it would be best diversify a little bit. I'm not sure if GBF mentioned that the sole intent was to beat Nob Bikers, but if he didn't I think my list is interesting. You aren't going to win any tournaments with a counter to only 1 army.

Because, he really likes the lysander/clagar combo... it's the focus of his army

If I sound condescending, I'm not trying to be, that's just my understanding of what GBF wants in an army

Shrike78 wrote:Because, he really likes the lysander/clagar combo... it's the focus of his army

If I sound condescending, I'm not trying to be, that's just my understanding of what GBF wants in an army

No, you don't. I just thought I may have missed the "point" of his army. I know he mentioned somewhere about replacing Marneus, but I think replacing Lysander is another possibility because he doesn't bring that much to the table for 60 points more than a Librarian.

The mission was Seize Ground with table quarter deployment. There were three objectives... One deep inside each player's DZ and one close to the center of the table. My opponent had the two units of nob bikers along with a large mob of lootaz. I opted to start close as possible with the two LRCs carrying the HQ and assault termies close to the middle of the table. My opponent held one nob squad back to support the lootas while the other one flanked around headed towards my two rhinos sitting back by my deep place objective. I opted to disembark one squad of termies lead by Darnath from their LRC to fall in behind my other LRC headed over towards the lootaz. The one squad of nob bikers finally reached the two rhinos and popped both in one assault phase. I should maybe have split them off from each other so the nobz could only assault one but I wanted to sit on that objective and take my chances. The tactical Marines bailed out from their wrecked transports, lit up the jobs with the meltas and charged the nobs. It was ugly to say the least and I managed to kill four nobs, they in turn wiped one of the tactical squads and the broke and fell off the board edge... So it was looking like those nobs would hold that objective but my empty LRC made it back by the sixth turn, tanking shocking the remnant squad of nob bikers, breaking (what luck!)... They fell back towards their DZ but the fallback distance came up short on the dice and they could not regroup because of their close proximity to my tank. Over in the other far table corner the other LRC barrelled into the lootas and was immobilized when entering difficult terrain. The termies assault the nob bikers and Marneus went out solo to tussle with the lootas. The lootas lost the combat after being shot up by the LRC hurricane bolters then the remainder were ganked by Calgar, broke and fled. The first unit of termies held up the second nob biker squad long enough for Lysander and his termies to engage them. Marneus also entered the melée action and together they outright killed off the nobs and warboss.

So it ended with neither of us having any scoring units left so the game ended in a draw but I was way ahead on victory points at the end.

G

hmm interesting, it seems to not be terrible against the Nobs, which was one purpose of the build (after reading the thread it seems safe to say that, however you wnat to take this army to GTs right? So you need to be good against the vast majority of the T1 and T2 armies in order to have a chance to place). How would you deal with games that have 5 objectives? what about armies like dual lash that bring lots of melta and lascannons to the table and then manipulate your units (essentially breaking the LRs then pushing your termiesback and pounding them with plasma fire)? Do you think you have any chance of handling massed Dark Lance fire? Bright Lances are also great against your LRs, so Eldar seems tough (I'm sure you know the math but its worth stating that 1/3 of hits from lance weapons will penetrate your Lanr Raiders, and 1/3 of penetrating hits will kill a land raider). Someone already mentioned the potential nightmare of deepstriking melta weapons, but it seems to definitely be worth reiterating. You seem fairly well able to go toe to toe with the Nobs, probably to the point where you can even sacrifice a small amount of your power there in order to improve other matchups.

Basically, Nobs will be all over the top tables, but they won't be alone at all. Do you think you can handle any of the other powerful armies out there (specifically, Lash, Mech Eldar, Dark Lance spam and Demons of various natures like 24 Bloodcrushers, Nurgle, etc)? I just feel like anything that brings a moderate amount of tank hunting weaponry and even a small amount of mobility to the table can simply deal with the LRs in the first turn or 2 and then move away from the termies and shoot at them all game (and I know TH/SS termies are rock solid but they still lose 1/3 of their invulnerable saves). In a game with a large amount of objectives, they can almost just cruise around the termies and go right for your tactical squads to prevent you from holding objectives. at this point, they can claim a win if they manage to protect even 1 of their troop units throughout the game. In this sense, the list feels unprepared to deal with objective missions. You have tremendous killy power, but your opponent needs to basically play right into your strategy or you'll have almost nothing for them. I think this is what deadshane was trying to say when he called the army one-dimensional, however he basically failed to explain his point.

I would really like to see how this list does against Lash and Mech Eldar/Dark Eldar because frankly, it seems like a very uphill battle for you.

I'm not trying to sound rude or mean in any way, I just feel like you're focusing too much on one match and as a result, you're crippling your matchups against other things. I really think you need to consider the other armies as well since you will not be playing Nob Bikes the majority of the time. I come from a ccg playing backround and I've gone to a few world championships under the fatal error of being so concerned about one matchup that I turn too many others into games that are hard to win, thats why I feel the need to mention this. I'm just trying to give you things to consider to help you improve the list.

HQ
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140
Librarian, Might of the Ancients, Gate, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield 140

Elite
Terminator Assault Squad 200
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250
Terminator Assault Squad 200

Troops
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35
Tactical Squad, Melta, Multi-Melta, PF 200
Rhino 35

FA
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer 70

HS
LR Redeemer, Multi-Melta 250

1850 Total

I like this list more than that of G's. Seems more competitive to me.
However, I'd replace the Landspeeders by Attack Bikes; personal preference.