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I personally wouldn't run a list like this, as I feel the troops are too exposed. It could work, but then again, a mobile opponent would just beeline for the Rhinos and feed units to the Termies. Against Tau, Nids, or even Guard with mass numbers, I think this list would stumble a bit. Against Nob bikers, sure, this would probably tear 'em to pieces.

It's great for killing a few elite units, but lacks the firepower or numbers to deal with masses of cheap units.

Regwon wrote:its ironclad not iron class

3 wont come down on the first turn, more likely 4 will.

Marneus can also only re-roll failed rolls to wounds, not failed armour penetration rolls.

Not that it matters much, assault terminators will munch through dread heavy lists without any troube.

This list is much better than your last one.

You will probably lose against horde armies, what dont care about your thunderhammers or your stormshields (2 LRCs will kill a few but not enough), but since Nob-bikers is the flavour of the month you will probably do quite well.

BRB pg 73 6th paragraph:

Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against a walker counts as a single wound for the purposes of working out who won the combat.

I have another question... is this list for a GT? Isn't the GT points standard 1750? Where are you going to drop 100pts form the list, it seems rather tight as is.

A lot of the indy GTs are 1850 points. Plus unlike nob bikers this would make a good core for an Ard Boyz army.

G

[quote=Green Blow Fly
BRB pg 73 6th paragraph:

Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against a walker counts as a single wound [b]for the purposes of working out who won the combat.

Take this to YMDC, this is the army list forum.



G

Definitely, you may re-roll rolls to wound, there is no roll to wound against targets with an armor value.

IE, when I roll to hit your calgar, then I roll to wound him since he has a toughness value.

You roll to hit my ironclad, then you roll for armor penetration. Not to wound, to penetrate armor. Two totally different things.

Edit: it sounds like you guys already did take it to YMDC and were told that it wouldn't work like that.

And as to the army list, I agree with a previous poster, although good against our current flavor of the month lists, it will come up short in most games against hordes and balanced armies with a decent amount of AT. I'd prefer swapping one character for a psyker with a hood, but I understand really enjoying two characters and wanting to use them, regardless of the benefits of using something else. Its all personal preference.

I'd just be careful building a one trick pony like the nob biker players have. In not too long when new codexes hit, those armies won't be nearly as viable. However, as you said, most of those can be incorporated into an Ard Boyz force, so it isnt as much of a loss as the nob bikers will take in all likelihood.

targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

Is that sarcasm?

Why do you day that?

G

targetawg wrote:
Is that sarcasm?

yes

Have you played any games with this list yet?

I don't see how it can work in a Tourny with just 2 troop choices, especially against horde armies. I've gotta agree with the people who call this a one trick pony thats only going to do well against a few armies in certain situations. With 2/3rd of the missions being about objectives, your going to be fighting an uphill battle, especially if anyone pops those rhino's. And anyone whose a good enough general to make it far in the Tourny will know that those should be their first targets. That same smart general would also just feed you a string of weak units to keep your Termies busy and drop them through the occasional failed save, or just keep you at range and drop you with mass fire.

You've definitely got an advantage in Kill Point missions, having so few points to give out, but thats not gonna be every game you play.

So I'd really like to hear how well this list works out. Please let us know.

The army has done very well for play testing. The LRCs are more durable than given credit by people here. Also opponents do not focus on the troops for some strange reason.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The army has done very well for play testing. The LRCs are more durable than given credit by people here. Also opponents do not focus on the troops for some strange reason.

G

What armies are you playing against? I look at my current CSM list and find myself wondering how you could possibly deal with the 13 Meltas (9 of which are in 115pt deepstriking throwaway units, so I'll happily trade 1 for 1 with your Land Raiders there) and 6 Oblits coming after your LRCs early in the game (turns 1 nd 2 basically will be all the time needed even if only 1 unit of deepstirkers comes in on t2). If those LRCs die early (turns 1-2) you've pretty much lost the game because your termies are horribly slow and won't be able to really catch the opposing army, or will simply take so much fire they'll be withered down. YES, AV14 is very resilient, but the current trends in army building (for building good armies anyway) are to include lots of melta or other high str/low ap weapons, and with the popularity of things like Nob Bikes, you will only see that trend increase (to instantkill as many Nobs as possible before combat happens). And if the opposing player can't really deal with the LRCs quickly, he can just go after your troops (which a smart player would seriously consider doing) and 20 marines won't last long with an army shooting at them. I have no doubt that your list will cream the vast majority of lists that aren't designed to win as many games as possible, however I really don't see how it can beat Lash with consistancy, or Horde Orks, or Battlewagon Orks, or Demons of whatever variety (especially 18+ Bloodcrushers with Fateweaver and 3 Soulgrinders with tongue, good luck with that one... the Bloodcrushers will slaughter your termies in cc). You drew with the Nob Bikes in the game you reported on a fairly lucky tankshock, otherwise it would have been a much different game. You can probably beat or tire Nob Bikes with decent consistancy though, which is the design of the list. I'm still of the opinion that in your pursuit of beating Nob Bikes, you're forgotten that other armies exist and are actually good/top tier (like Lash Chaos, Demons and other varieties of Orks).

Exalt.

If both of the ICs were taken out, and a termie chaplain and a terminator were brought in, you could fit two vindicators in this list.

By not doing that, you are much more dependent on your land raiders surviving. In a 5 game competitive tourney, you are going to have your legs swept out from under you more than once. That will adversely affect your battle points.

It is a good list against nob bikers, but a list with vindicator support also fares well against nob bikers...

To the person who commented on how few the troops are...

I used to advocate 30 marines/scouts when i was first messing around with the codex. I needed the 175 points to make lists with enough offensive output, so I dabbled with 20. As long as you have rhinos, 20 has been more than adequate for seize ground. It seems like dakka has come to the same conclusion. Just keep in mind that space marine lists are violently aggressive 'in your face' armies. Opponents just can not ignore the heavies and elites you bring. (assuming you took the right ones)

I don't hate the list GBF, I just think it needs more moving parts.

I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

I'd be pretty damn happy if they decided to tear open Vindicators with their turn 2 assaults instead of my Land Raiders.

calgar and lysander are certainly better against nob bikers...

the vindicators would go in to fight other armies. Retaliating against obliterator suicide deep strike without having to open yourself up to lash is nice. Having a chance against a 'regular' ork army is nice. Putting two pies on bloodcrushers before you charge them might actually make those combats less painful. Vindicators can 'peace out' sternguard so fast that they are going to have to be a priority target. That means your land raiders may live, which means the sternguard are dead. And strength 10 ordnance is no slouch at killing land raiders. When you are in the mirror match, the person who gets out of the land raider first loses. The more anti-tank you can fit that isn't lysander, the better.

I just mentioned nobs because, well, they aren't useless against them. Draw the nobs into charging the land raiders, then land a pie on them, then assault them.

If you are determined to make a list that is single-minded nob biker hate... you are on the right track. But the revised title of your post states "designed to win as many tourney games as possible". I think having more than two active aggressive units is important. Unless, of course, those units can move 24" a turn.

Caffran9 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think that vindicators are that great versus nob bikers. They will get one to turn to shoot then are assaulted. A smart ork player will keep his bikers 2" apart.

G

I'd be pretty damn happy if they decided to tear open Vindicators with their turn 2 assaults instead of my Land Raiders.

Good for you Caffran9!

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:targetawg I hugely value your input. Thank you so very much for setting me straight on the wound thing with the rules.

G

You are quite possibly one of the biggest plagues of this site. You're no good at what you do, you troll constantly, and you're a prick to comments that were meant to be helpful to your list that you asked for comments on.

You are also quite possibly the WORST representation of a club I've ever seen, and my opinion of Wrecking Crew has plummeted even further than the indications were already going.

Seriously. How do you even get a game.

Edit: Also, as an aside, I'd have to say you're the only person I've met who is MORE obnoxious than Stelek. And keep in mind the ONLY reason we dealt with him is that he gave intelligent reviews and useful comments, as he knew what he was doing. You don't have that going for you.

targetawg I have a sign I hold outside the FLGS that says:

Will play for games. Please!



G

So if you basically refuse to listen to anything anyone says about the list (unless they're saying its an amazing army of course) why did you even bother posting it? You even asked for advice/comments on it! Then, when they are given, you completely reject them and feel the need to be sarcastic and degrading to everyone. Oh yea, you're cool all right.

Caffran9 wrote:So if you basically refuse to listen to anything anyone says about the list (unless they're saying its an amazing army of course) why did you even bother posting it? You even asked for advice/comments on it! Then, when they are given, you completely reject them and feel the need to be sarcastic and degrading to everyone. Oh yea, you're cool all right.

I wouldn't sweat it, he's a pathetic internet tough guy who makes bad lists and acts like a big shot. His mouth will get him banned in far shorter time than it took stelek.

Take the list to any major tournament since you don't want to change it. I'll look for you at the bottom of the standings.

For that matter, Conflict GT, January 17th-18th, still a few spots open, should come play.

Seriously this is the 2nd version. As people have noted there are not a lot of points left to play around with now. I would love to have a multi-melta on both LRC.

There are a lot of cool things this army can do tactically that you may have not even considered.

G

I think Pedro + Termies + Tac Powerfists is brutal.

A lot of power fists is always a good thing for sure.

G

Well if we haven't considered it then we may be missing a large part of the army and its effectiveness, so its probably in your best interest to tell us what those things are if you really want constructive feedback on the list and how it works.

I feel like I must be missing something at this point. I really don't mean to be rude, I'm just looking for more an in depth idea of how this list wins.

Actually I went back and read all the posts from today. I am considering what Shep said in regards to dropping one of the special characters... maybe consider dropping Marneus for a generic HQ in terminator armor to free up some more points. I am hard headed for sure but I will admit when I realize I am wrong. This is an army that requires a lot of play testing. This is the second version and it is a big improvement over the first list. I hate to drop Marneus but it's obvious he would be the first unit to drop. It may well be that this is just not an army that can win three to five games in a tournament environment against veteran players.

I am also considering putting all ten assault terminators into one unit and combat squad them the majority of the time. That would be one less KP in annilihation missions, plus ten assault terminators as one unit might be better against hordes. I will just have to keep play testing to find out.

I do appreciate all the constructive feedback and I do realize this list as it is now in it's second version has some weaknesses that can be exploited.

G

I think this is a good list for objective based missions because of the following reasons:

Full 10 man tactical squads are a great unit for holding objectives. Once they get on top of an objective they take a dedicated effort for an opponent to remove them. They can sit there and use the rhino to block LOS, plus they are good as a shooty unit.

The terminators, LRCs and HQs are good for contesting objectives.

Landraiders in general are a great choice in 5e albeit the threat from melta and lance weapons. Based upon my experience melta weapons are the bigger threat, but they are short to mid ranged with the exception of landspeeders and attack bikes. The best way to neutralize melta weapons is to deny them shooting at your armor at 1/2 range or less. Infantry should be deployed to support your armor... that is a basic tactic of modern warfare. Lance weapons have the advantage over melta since they have better range in general.

Here is the basic math for one lance weapon shooting at AV12+ with a ballastic skill of BS4:

67% chance to hit
50% chance to glance
33% chance to penetrate & 33% chance to destroy

67*33*33 = 7%

Correct me if my math is wrong. I typically field two Baal predators in my BA mechanized list and they have done great against DE lance spam. Two LRC would be even better since they are AV12+ all around.

G