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But their is an absolute ruling. hes an independent character, independent characters are killpoints. Ergo he is a killpoint. If he isnt a killpoint then the entire games rules become questionable.

"Yeah the rules say that all x's are y's. But Chronius is an independent character but not a killpoint, therefore how can the rules be trusted?"

You may not like the result, heck I'm not sure I like it, but its the result none the less.



this is also the reason why a Thunderfire Cannon is two killpoints, as the model crewing the cannon is an independent character.


independent character = a killpoint

it really is that simple.

As i said before he always exists (you must see him sticking out the top of the tank he's commanding)

but he gains his profile and rules once the tank dies (If he survives)

So I you destroy the tank and he doesn't jump clear 1KP

If you shoot the tank destroy it and he jumps clear, he counts as part of that unit so you can charge him.

And if you then kill him you gain 1KP.

@Gwar: That doesn't even make sense.

@combo: I understand combo I do, but gwar is being confusing by saying that chronus is a vehcihle upgrade, ergo a part of the vehcihle. You would play by 2) I understand, I'm not dissing you.

But you have to agree that RAW has failed in this cae, no?

I'm sorry but I will only concede that 2) is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, if you bring me the rule saying that chronus is/is not a whole new/seperate unit.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: That doesn't even make sense.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.


HOW MUCH CLEARER DOES IT NEED TO BE? IF the tank dies, he has the profile, never at any point before that. He gains the profile because he forms a new unit.

No, what doesn't make sense is that you are argueing that he SUDDENLY/MAGICALLY changes from being an upgrade (part of the vehichle) to a seperate unit entirely.

...? I just don't get it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:No, what doesn't make sense is that you are argueing that he SUDDENLY/MAGICALLY changes from being an upgrade (part of the vehichle) to a seperate unit entirely.

...? I just don't get it?

Try reading the Rules for Chronus, specifically the part where it explains what happens when his Tank Blows up.

gotta log off! bye!

I cannot bring you one such rule as no one such rule exists, but no such rule exists for a multitude of other rules that we take for granted.

however I can give you a comprehensive list of rules regarding this incident that when read together should make it clear that he is an independent Character.

First off. Page89 of the Space Marine Codex
Tank commander rule:

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as a commander of a space marine tank[...] When the damage has been resolved place him within 2inch of the vehicles position. If chronus vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game[...]Independent Character"

From this rule we descern two things, whilst in the tank Chronus is an upgrade, but when he comes clear from the tank he becomes an independent character
Now independent character rules are pretty clear, page 47 of the BRB codex states

"Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right"

A unit in their own right, therefore Chronus, who is an independent character has to be a unit in his own right.
When reading page 91 of the BRB it states

"Each player recieves 1 "killpoint" for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed"

Therefore Chronus is an independent character(it clearly states he is) an independent character is clearly a unit in its own right (it once again clearly states it is) and every unit regardless of what it is gives a killpoint according to annihilation rules.
I think thats pretty clear.

I'm baaaaaack! (but only for a while)
okay, it's a decent argument. But what if Chronus is blown up in the exlosion? (on 1-2). Is that killing 2 birds with one stone? (2 kill points?)

And it really doesn't answer whether or not Chronus can be charged. It doesn't say he can, and it doesn't say he can't. NO MENTION!

Also, would this kind of situation also apply if a sorceror turned someone into a Warpspawn? Would the soceror get the kill point (vs independant charachter) and would the Warpspawn relinquish a kill point also when killed? (as it did not exist beforehand).

@Drudge: It doesn't say he is a new unit. So he isn't, right?

He doesn't have to be a new unit. He is a unit. But he is not the same unit as the tank, no.

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Offline As i said before he always exists (you must see him sticking out the top of the tank he's commanding)

but he gains his profile and rules once the tank dies (If he survives)

So I you destroy the tank and he doesn't jump clear 1KP

If you shoot the tank destroy it and he jumps clear, he counts as part of that unit so you can charge him.

And if you then kill him you gain 1KP.

Right except for the part where he counts as being part of that unit. There is nothing in the rules to support him being part of a unit with the tank.

Id say it would not be two kill points, as he only gains the independent character rule when he leaves the tank, before then he is just an upgrade to the tank.

Actually it should clarify whether he can be charged or not, if he becomes a unit in his own right after the tank is destroyed, rather than being a unit in his own right inside the tank, then he wasn't embarked on the tank. Ergo he is a seperate unit that was not part of the transport and therefore cannot be charged by the unit that popped his tank.

I dont know the wording of the Warpspawn, so I cannot answer that question sorry.

combo wrote:

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as a commander of a space marine tank[...] When the damage has been resolved place him within 2inch of the vehicles position. If chronus vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game[...]Independent Character"

QFT. There you go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RAW does not make ANY mention on whether or not he can be charged after his 'darring do Indianna/Chuck Norris dodge explosion' action.

Please point out a solid rule where it says Chronos can/not be charged.

I don't think there is one. The only option is to look at RAI. As he was PREVIOUSLY part of the unit, I would assume that he CAN be charged, IMO. I don't see why not. GW has stuffed this up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gotta go! bye!

There is still nothing saying he's ever part of the unit.

Theres nothing saying he was part of the unit, for all intents and purposes he is a completely unrelated unit that spawns after the tank dies, and the rules for charging units are very clear.

So, to sum it up:

He's worth a killpoint because he's a seperate unit, and since he's an IC even if he was part of the unit he'd still be worth one.

He cannot be charged by a unit that blows up his tank because it doesn't say he can, unlike transports and passengers.

Disagree with your first point Drudge, it doesnt say he has the independent character rule until he leaves the tank, he actually appears to gaint he independent character rule when the tank explodes, therefore if he dies at the same time as the tank, you only lose 1 kill point.

Agree with your second point.


I think the best way to think of Chronus is that he is an upgrade for a tank that allows it to have bs5 and ignore shaken and stunned results and also allows the spawning of an unrelated chronus(1) model if the tank gets destroyed.

Yeah thats what i meant.

No one has yet addressed why he is not an upgrade character.

He is an upgrade.

He is a character.

He is bought for a specific unit.

Therefore he is an upgrade character THAT IS PART OF a unit which he cannot leave. (since that is the nature of an upgrade character). Nothing refers to him as a vehicle upgrade. His entry merely says "upgrade".

This makes him no different from any other character that cannot leave a unit, and makes a lot more sense than his state of "nonexistence." Much like the techmarine/cannon combo it is a mixed infantry/vehicle unit.

There's the answer to Drudge's question. His entry DOES say he is part of the unit but the fact must be inferred in conjunction with the rest of the game mechanics. Not everything has to be explicitly stated in every rule entry. We must infer a few things.

Whether he is an upgrade character or not seems unimportant, considering he is an Independent Character.

The rules for independent characters in regard to killpoints and how they work in combination with other units is pretty clear.

combo wrote:Whether he is an upgrade character or not seems unimportant, considering he is an Independent Character.

The rules for independent characters in regard to killpoints and how they work in combination with other units is pretty clear.

Oh, I agree with you on the KP issue combo. I disagree with the interpretation that he is not part of the Tank unit when it is destroyed. Since he is an upgrade character (that becomes an IC) he was part of the unit that got shot, and hence can be charged if he survives his bail out rule. He is not a new unit, but his stats change. He's still the same old Chronus that was previously part of the combined vehicle stats.

Does it actually say he's an upgrade character? Or is he just an upgrade that is also a character, or an upgrade that spawns a character? Because none of those are the same thing.

Also, if he is an Upgrade Character can you direct me to the rule section backing up your points?

Well, drudge he's an individual with a personal name. That makes him a character. GW to my knowledge never actually defines the term character other than "powerful individuals," and since I don't have a BRB handy I can't give you a direct quote. The character section of the rules deals with two types, Independent, and upgrade. The primary differences being one can leave the unit and one cannot.

Saying Chronus is not a character is a real stretch. If he isn't a character what is? Are only IC's characters?

His entry calls him an upgrade. Being an upgrade that is also a character makes him an upgrade character. That makes him part of the unit. If you want something that says "Chronus is an upgrade character" in those words there is no such line. There soesn't need to be. We need to make that small leap of logic ourselves.

Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Whether or not hes worth a KP if he doesnt make it out of the tank all depends on what point his special rules kick in. Until then hes not an IC so until then hes not worth a KP. His rules do say that if his vehicle has been destroyed he then becomes an IC etc etc for the rest of the game, so since its not until after his vehicle is destroyed that we roll to see if he survives or not then it would seem that he would become an IC before we roll. So the instant his vehicle is destroyed he becomes an IC, even if he only lives until the next die roll kills him. Hes always worth a second KP then from the RAW.

Now, whether of not hes part of the tank unit is a bit more sticky since RAW doesnt explicitly tell us that. He is bought as an upgrade and has to be commander of a tank plus he is not an IC.

According to page 47 where the rules tell us about character types, we do find that characters are either ICs or else upgrade characters which are fielded as part of units.

Chronus is bought as an upgrade, and replaces the commander of a tank. This does give us grounds to consider him as possibly an upgrade character, which would make him part of the tank unit, which would then indeed mean that he could be charged in cc as part of the tank unit.
He IS listed as an upgrade, he becomes the commander of a tank and he does improve the unit with his enhanced characteristics ... so he meets the basic criteria for an upgrade character. This would appear to be the closest fit for him in the RAW.



Sliggoth

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Now that right there is some twisted logic, Drudge.

He's a character.

He's an upgrade.

That is the very definition of upgrade character! What else COULD he be?

That line of argument is just silly.

"He's a character who is an upgrade, not an upgrade character." That doesn't even make sense by GW's slack definitions of sense.

He could be an upgrade that creates a character when his tank is destroyed for one. You are using inductive reasoning here. Just because all Upgrade Characters are characters that are upgrades doesn't mean all characters that are upgrades are Upgrade Chracters.

I would argue that he is very obviously NOT an upgrade character. Upgrade characters are things like sergeants and aspiring champions. They upgrade a model in a unit to a chracter with special options. Chronus doesn't do this. He just gives a vehicle a special rule. He doesn't upgrade a unit into another one. He's not turning a tank into a character with more options. He's not in a unit with the tank. For him to be would be ridiculous, as infantry cannot be in a unit with a vehicle, and vehicles don't even form units they form squadrens. So overall viewing Chronus as an upgrade character doesn't fit and opens up a whole can of new rules dilemmas that have no answers.

An upgrade character need not replace anything. Eldar warlocks are an example. You don't upgrade(replace) a guardian to a warlock, you add a warlock to the squad. In this case you add Chronus (a character) to a vehicle which he enhances. That makes him an upgrade character.

You have yet to prove he isn't in a unit with the tank as well. You assume that because it fits your argument.

As far as squadron vs unit, a squadron IS a unit. Read the definition of units early in the BRB (around p 5 or 6 IIRC) it clearly states that units may go by different names, but they are units nonetheless. As I've said before, just because normal characters cannot form units with vehicles does not mean Chronus can't since his rules tell us he MUST.

All of this to me makes him an obvious upgrade character.

I never said upgrade characters only upgrade units. I merely gave an example.

I'm not assuming it because it fits my argument, i'm assuing it because the rules never say he is. If the situation were as complex as you claim there would need to be more specific rules. In other words, since there are not more specific rules the situaiton is NOT as you claim.

What exactly do you expect though? The BRB tells us what upgrade characters are. Chronus fits that definition (as Sliggoth pointed out ^). That's hardly that complex. If you are wanting them to put "this guy is an upgrade character" in his entry, then I'm afraid you expect too much from GW.

Once in a while we need to put a few things together to make sense of them. This is such a case. To more specifically address what you said in your post, we don't need any "more specific" rules. They are all there, just not in one place.

edited to correct spelling of Sliggoth's name.

Hmm, upgrade a model in a unit to a character with special options....

Rather like giving their vehicle an improved BS, or being able to ignore a shaken or stunned result?

If we look to pg 5 we see that "vehicle crew members - the drivers, commanders and gunners - are assumed to be an integral part of their machine" Chronus does then become part of the unit, the vehicle that he joins. He does have special rules that give him a chance to survive the destruction of his vehicle, but we know that he is part of the vehicle up until its destroyed since he is the vehicles commander.

This alone tells us that according to RAW chronus is indeed part of the unit.

As far as the upgrade character rule on pg 47 goes, it tells us that such characters perhaps have a wider selction of weapons and wargear choices. Perhaps. That word tells us that the upgrade character doesnt have to have any wider selection of chocies at all, he can just be an upgrade character because he has enhanced characteristics over the part of the unit he is replacing.

Read pg 47. Chronus meets the basic definition of an upgrade character. He is replacing the commander of the tank and we then use his enhanced characteristics for the tank. He is not infantry while hes part of the tank, he is part of the vehicle unit since he is the commander.


RAW doesnt say the words " chronus can be assaulted by a unit that blows up his tank", but since he is definitely a part of that unit what prevents them? They are assaulting part of the unit that they fired upon, its not really different from shooting at and killing part of a unit and then assaulting whats left.


Sliggoth