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Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

No, I said he was an Upgrade, but he is not the tank. If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

Gwar! wrote:If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

There's nothing in the rules that states Chronus is or is not a new unit, either in the SM codex or the rulebook. You're taking the position that since his unit type and statline change, he must be a new unit, but there is not a rule that states so.

chronus is a TANK upgrade not a unit upgrade if the tank blows up he becomes a single man unit.

dietrich wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

There's nothing in the rules that states Chronus is or is not a new unit, either in the SM codex or the rulebook. You're taking the position that since his unit type and statline change, he must be a new unit, but there is not a rule that states so.

There is no rule saying I can't pour napalm on your minis either.

Gwar! wrote:There is no rule saying I can't pour napalm on your minis either.

In this case, you are correct. That's why sportsmanship should be encouraged. Same with cases where RAW doesn't have an answer to a question, as in this case.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, random Rules quotes help because.....

.... because you said he wasn't an upgrade and because you said he didn't exist till the tank was destroyed.

He's part of the tank that keeps on kicking long after the tanks blown to bits.

No, I said he was an Upgrade, but he is not the tank. If the tank Explodes, the tank is gone, and Chronus is a new unit.

Really?

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say the tank is Chronos or that he is any part of the tank, even if he is bought as an upgrade, only that the tank that is upgraded gets to use BS5 etc etc

But any way he's an upgrade to the tank and is (and must be) clearly visible poking out the top of the tank. Tank blows up and becomes a pile of rubble and a bald shouty man in red amour. He gains a profile and rules when the tank blows but is still part of the same unit.

Just got to chime in and say this arguement is pointless, some of it is GW's fault because they could have made him just die off with the tank, like Pask. I agree with the people that said just shoot at him with a different squad.

After that run spore mines, lots of them.

It's insanity to argue that they guy isn't in the vehicle, it specifically states "he leaps clear at the last second", meaning he was in the vehicle that was about to explode. He doesn't apear from the warp magically.

The question in place is if he is inside the vehicle does that make him a "passenger"? Or is it argued that he is the driver therefor has special rights in targeting for assault purposes.

That question can't be answered without offical ruling since just because current day tanks take a "crew" to pilot doesn't assume that 40k take more then one person.

Fluff also states I should win any Battle with an Inquisitor in it Automatically via Exterminatus.

Fluff != Rules.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, 'cuz I think nobody has mentioned this aspect yet, but what is the rules reason that Chronus would not be considered an upgrade character for the unit (assuming "upgrade character" exists in 5th).

@Gwar: Now you're just being pedantic. It is not like Chronus magically appeared with fairy powder randomly next to a vehichle wreck. It was HIS vehichle.

If he counted as a driver/gunner/crew then he should be destroyed with the vehichle according to the rulebook. The only other alternative is that he counted as a passenger.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: Now you're just being pedantic. It is not like Chronus magically appeared with fairy powder randomly next to a vehichle wreck. It was HIS vehichle.

If he counted as a driver/gunner/crew then he should be destroyed with the vehichle according to the rulebook. The only other alternative is that he counted as a passenger.

Or he is a new unit, ya know because he is

You buy him as an upgrade for a vehicle. He is not a unit then. He is a piece of wargear that gives certain bonuses. He is not part of the vehicles unit any more than an extra stormbolter is. Nowhere does it say he is a passenger or member of the unit, so he isn't. Even if it did, its not part of vehicles and infantry to be a unit together. He's wargear that happens to have the model and fluff of a space marine. He is not a unit until the vehicle is destroyed, and then he is his own 1 man unit. As the rules do not say anything else, it isn't anything else.

Sorry, but Gwar is wrong (so is Drudge for that matter).

Chronus is not a vehicle upgrade. He is not listed as an upgrade in any of the vehicle entries. He is a character who may be purchased and has his own statline, his own unit entry etc. This makes him an upgrafe character, not a vehicle upgrade.

Yes, a character cannot normally join a vehicle unit, but Chronus' rules tell us he MUST, so they override the BRB.

Just because the only stat you use of his profile is BS, that does not mean the rest of it does not exist.

This makes Chronus a character who is bought as an upgrade. Upgrade characters are part of the unit they are purchased for.

For all these reasons, Chronus is part of the vehicle unit he is assigned to, and thus, if he survives, can be assaulted.

If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Kyrolon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Because his rules do not say that he is part of the unit. "It doesn't say he isn't" does not make a valid rules argument.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If you disagree, please offer some evidence that after being purchased he ceases to exist, because I don't see that rule anywhere. (Please note not being on the table =/= not existing).

Not on the Table, not in reserve, has no profile, not a passenger.

Yeah, he doesn't exist until the tank blows up.

Has a profile, is part of the unit. He exists. Please tell me how an upgrade character is NOT part of the unit.

Because his rules do not say that he is part of the unit. "It doesn't say he isn't" does not make a valid rules argument.

The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

Kyrolon wrote:The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

No, he is bought as an Upgrade (like Extra Armour), not an Upgrade Character.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

He is not called a character, quite rightly, because he does not have a Profile until the tank dies:

Page 89 (again):
If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.

"If" means he does not have the profile until the tank dies, and as such he does not exist as a Unit until the tank dies.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:The BRB makes him part if the unit since he is an upgrade character. You know a character bought and assigned to a unit he can't leave. He fits that definition so that's exactly what he is.

No, he is bought as an Upgrade (like Extra Armour), not an Upgrade Character.

Page 89:
Chronus is always bought as an upgrade

He is not called a character, quite rightly, because he does not have a Profile until the tank dies:

Page 89 (again):
If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules for the remainder of the game: And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Independent Character. He may not take command of a different tank.

"If" means he does not have the profile until the tank dies, and as such he does not exist as a Unit until the tank dies.

This also does not say he is bought as a VEHICLE upgrade. He is a special character, so then he must be an upgrade CHARACTER.

And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

Kyrolon wrote:And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

If it was not used previously, how does using it NOT constitute making a new unit?

The rules in the BRB do not allow Vehicles and Infantry to form units outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules state he becomes a Unit with the tank, only that he is bought as an Upgrade. Not an Upgrade CHARACTER, but just an Upgrade. When the Tank Asspoldes, he is Placed within 2" as a new Unit, with the IC rule etc.

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:And no, that "if" does not mean the profile doesn't exist, it means you don't use it previously.

If it was not used previously, how does using it NOT constitute making a new unit?

Just becaue there's no cause to use it (due to Chronus being part of the vehicle) does not mean his profile doesn't exist. Otherwise how does the vehicle use his BS?

The rules in the BRB do not allow Vehicles and Infantry to form units outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules state he becomes a Unit with the tank, only that he is bought as an Upgrade. Not an Upgrade CHARACTER, but just an Upgrade. When the Tank Asspoldes, he is Placed within 2" as a new Unit, with the IC rule etc.

Chronus' rules say he is bought as an upgrade (with no mention of what kind). He is not listed in any specific vehicle entry under vehicle upgrades therefore he is not a vehicle upgrade. He is a character though. At this point we must define character since to my knowledge though they talk about them a lot GW never does. Chronus is a single individual with a name. To my mind that makes him a character. If he is not a vehicle upgrade (which are all listed in vehicle entries) and he is a character, then he must be an upgrade character. We do have rules for these, and they are part of the unit they were bought for.

Since Chronus is part of the unit he was bought for, and indeed must be modeled as such, then he can be assaulted. This notion of being in some state of ethereal non existence makes no sense, Gwar, nor is it supported by the rules. If Chronus did not exist prior to being placed on the table he'd have no effect on the tank either. To use your own standards, where in Chromus' rules does it say "Chronus becomes a new unit"?

As far as the problem of not combining infantry with vehicles...this is irrelevant. As I pointed out above we are told Chronus must be added to a vehicle, that overrides the BRB rule on no infantry joining vehicles.

I"ve said the same thing like 3 times now, as have others, so unless you add something new that shows where it says Chronus doesn't exist, I really don't have anything else to add.

Kyrolon wrote:I really don't have anything else to add.

So why keep posting? If I am "wrong" like you say, why should it matter to you?

I'm not wrong, but I am curious as to why it bothers you so much.

Gwar=Wrong
Kyrolon=Right

I'm sorry Gwar, but you have to realise, there is no real direction pointed out by the rule book. It does not really offer any solid guidance as to how chronus operates in an assualt.

I think you would only say that Chronus cannot be assualted if you were an utter jackass, and was desperate to twist the rules in your favour.

The problen is that there IS NO RAW for this case. I would think that it is only reasonable to ASSUME that Chronus can be assualted. YMMV

It doesn't bother me so much as I didn't want you to think I'd walked off in a huff. We are obviously looking at the same couple of sticking points and seeing them differently. I was basically saying that I've said everything I can to persuade you. You believe you are right, I believe I am. Nothing is going to chnge that apparently. I've continued posting to this point in response to your queries/ responses. While typing my last one I realized I had said it all before. There's no need to say it again. Go in Peace young trollkin.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The problen is that there IS NO RAW for this case. I would think that it is only reasonable to ASSUME that Chronus can be assualted. YMMV

I think it is reasonable to assume that A Tank turning into an Infantry Model that is worth a 2nd kill point and has the IC rule means it is a new unit.

It is also what the rules say, but don't let that get in the way huh?

It doesn't SAY that he is a new unit.
Just as it dosen't say he is not.
There IS NO mention as to whether or not Chronus is COMPLETELY detached from his vehichle. If he has the slightest connection to the vehichle (which I BELIEVE he does, but ignore that) then he should be viable to be assualted.

The problem is that RAW does not mention this.

P.S. Does it say Chronus counts as another kill point? (honest question)

Emperors Faithful wrote:P.S. Does it say Chronus counts as another kill point? (honest question)

The fact he is an IC says so.