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Gwar! wrote:Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.

On what grounds do you base that?

If he is a unit being transported by the tank, then he couldn't get in anything other than a Land Raider, and any Land Raider he were in would not be able to transport another unit because of the transport rules and the fact Chronus doesn't have a rule which lets his vehicles transport any extra units than normal.

If he is a part of the same unit as the tank he is riding in it brings up even more problems because now you have a unit that is composed of 1 vehicle and 1 infantry model who doesn't follow normal infantry rules at all despite not being allowed to ignore those rules by any of his special rules.

I think the only way to implement this without breaking any rules is that when he's in the tank it's just a tank with some special rules, when it is destroyed if he escapes a whole new unit is created.

Webbe wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.

On what grounds do you base that?

Oh, something to do with the fact that he Changes Name, Profile and type and the fact that Chronos and a Land Raider are not the Same unit no matter what planet you are on.

Except you kind of BUY him for the land raider as an upgrade. It does not make sense. If all crew/gunners are considered destroyed with their vehichle then what is Chronos?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Except you kind of BUY him for the land raider as an upgrade. It does not make sense. If all crew/gunners are considered destroyed with their vehichle then what is Chronos?

Chronos has a SuperspecialRule that lets you ignore that, and create a new Unit when the Vehicle assplodes

But it DOESN'T SAY THAT...


...does it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it DOESN'T SAY THAT...


...does it?

If the tank suffers a Wrecked or Explodes! result, roll a D6. n a 1 or 2, Chronus is slain. If the result is 3 or more, Chronus leaps clear at the last second - when the damage has been resolved, place him within 2" of the vehicle's position.

Nope, not the same unit, not a passenger.

It does not SAY he is a seperate unit.
Just as it does not SAY he was a passenger.

Which (if either) is it?

Emperors Faithful wrote:I does not SAY he is a seperate unit.
Just as it does not SAY he was a passenger.

Which (if either) is it?

It does not day he is a passenger. Therefore, he is not. Therefore, you cannot declare the assault because it is not the same unit you shot at.

It does not say he is a seperate unit...does it? (deja vu)

Was Chronus not ORIGINALLY part of the unit (tank) you shot at? And you can only seperate from the unit in the moving phase. Right? So he still counts as one with the unit you shot at.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It does not say he is a seperate unit...does it? (deja vu)

Was Chronus not ORIGINALLY part of the unit (tank) you shot at? And you can only separate from the unit in the moving phase. Right? So he still counts as one with the unit you shot at.

Nowhere does it say he is part of the Tank/Unit whatever. He is a Totally Separate unit that is created when the tank is destroyed.

But it DOES NOT say that he is created. It says he is placed. Within 2", sounds a bit like a passenger to me.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But it DOES NOT say that he is created. It says he is placed. Within 2", sounds a bit like a passenger to me.

But he is not. If he was a Passenger, it would say "Placed Like a Passenger". he instead has his own special rules on what to do. Therefore he is not a passenger

In this case RAW has stuffed up. It is not clear at all what is to be done. It does not say treat him like a passenger, nor does it say treat him like a new unit. There is no REAL guideline as to how he should be treated in this situation.

Emperors Faithful wrote:In this case RAW has stuffed up. It is not clear at all what is to be done. It does not say treat him like a passenger, nor does it say treat him like a new unit. There is no REAL guideline as to how he should be treated in this situation.

Agree. The rules don't identify him as a Passenger. Nor do the rules state if he is the same unit (despite changing from a unit with an AV to an infantry model with a T value) or if he is now a new unit. RAW has failed us!

I think the reasonable answer is that Chronus can be assaulted by a unit that blew up his pimpin' ride. YMMV.

Finnaly! A kindred soul! (when it comes to Chronus's pimped up wreck that is)

For assault-

In the Tank Commander text pg 89 Space Marines codex it states that he "starts the game as a Commander of a Space Marine tank" meaning that he is inside the tank from the start of the game as the person commanding the tank... not driving it. A passenger is defined as anyone inside a vehicle that is not driving said vehicle.

Against assault-

The rule for assault vs passengers is merely an example, but states that if you blow it up you may now assault the "disembarked passengers" which would not include the Commander as he did not disembark as per the disembark guidelines.

Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

People play by the rules, not Common Sense.

Gwar! wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

People play by the rules, not Common Sense.

And in some cases the rules are not clear.

It is not clear whether or not Chronus counts as:
- A passenger of the vehicle he commands
- Part of the same unit as the vehicle he commands
- A separate unit from the vehicle he commands

Either seem to be acceptable per RAW.

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

If he's a passenger he can't ride in any vehicle without transport space, nor may his vehicle with transport space transport a second unit, it's transport capacity is already taken up by Chronus.

whitedragon wrote:It is not clear whether or not Chronus counts as:
- A passenger of the vehicle he commands
- Part of the same unit as the vehicle he commands
- A separate unit from the vehicle he commands

Either seem to be acceptable per RAW.

No, it is clear he is a separate unit, ya know, because of the whole "he has a Different name, Profile, Characteristics and Unit Type than a Tank"

Drunkspleen wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Common sense rule would (hopefully) dictate that as per the definition of the word passenger he was infact a passenger.

If he's a passenger he can't ride in any vehicle without transport space, nor may his vehicle with transport space transport a second unit, it's transport capacity is already taken up by Chronus.

I wasn't intended to mean that he is in the APC troop hold which would be the passanger transport capasity. He is the commander of the tank, not the driver of the tank. It is likly that he is more in the way of the gunner of the vehicle.

As stated before though there is no clear ruling on this one because the gunner and driver of vehicles can't typically get out. He follows similar rules to Tau ejection system which is similarly vague.

He is a separate unit.

He has a separate statline and has a separate type.

He is not a passenger because he operates the vehicle, rather than just riding in it. http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=passenger

The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

So no, you cant kill a vehicle and then assault chronus.

Regwon wrote:He is a separate unit.

He has a separate statline and has a separate type.

He is not a passenger because he operates the vehicle, rather than just riding in it. http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=passenger

The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

So no, you cant kill a vehicle and then assault chronus.

Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Regwon wrote:The precident in rules for this is tau vehicles with gun drones, which count as a separate unit in all respects once they have been detached, but are originally bought as part of the vehicle.

As some people like to say, that's the Tau codex and irrelevant.

Chronus is definitely not a Passenger. The rules make no mention on any restriction or ability to assault him after the vehicle is destroyed.

I would play it that a unit that smoked his pimpin' ride can asasult him. YMMV.

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Another moment of gwar being miss informed. He is purchased as a vehicle upgrade.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:Gun drones are specifically mention as being passengers Chronus is not. He is a vehicle upgrade so is part of the vehicle. Unless that is a rule (,like gun drones have ,) say that he is a passenger.

Nowhere do the rules say that he is a Part of the Vehicle anyway. All it says is the vehicle uses his BS, not that he is Piloting the Vehicle.

Another moment of gwar being miss informed. He is purchased as a vehicle upgrade.

Chronus' tank ignores any Crew Shaken or Crew Stunnedresults and can use his Ballistic Skill of 5.

Nowhere does it say the tank is Chronos or that he is any part of the tank, even if he is bought as an upgrade, only that the tank that is upgraded gets to use BS5 etc etc

"Tank Commander: Chronus is always bought as an upgrade and starts the game as commander of a SM tank ...."




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