Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think he can be charged.

G

If you destroy a whole squad except the IC can you then charge the IC, despite it being a 'different unit'?

I would think you can.

Emperors Faithful wrote:If you destroy a whole squad except the IC can you then charge the IC, despite it being a 'different unit'?

I would think you can.

If you could or couldn't would have no bearing on this situation unless you are trying to argue that Chronus is an IC attached to his tank. Which there is no basis for.

I was trying to make a comparison. If Chronus is at any point PART of the tank, then it would be similar to that situation.

Anyway, the whole thing is hilarious becuase there is no basis for anything. It is only reasonable to assume that chronus can be charged. But there is no RAW (apart from how passengers are treated) to support this, just as there is no RAW to support the alternative.

We know from Pg 5 the rules on units that chronus is indeed part of his tank since he is the tank commander.

The status of chronus does indeed change after his tank is destroyed since at that point he becomes an IC. Previous to that point he seems to be an upgrade character. He is still chronus, altho GW does make you buy a second model with legs for this part ... maybe marketing wrote this rule (yes, make them buy two figs for each of their units $$).

So since we know from RAW that chronus was indeed part of the unit that was shot at, what is the arguement that the firing unit cannot then charge him?


Sliggoth

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Ah except it doesn't. It makes him exactly what it says he is. An upgrade. Perhaps he is a character too, but even if he is he is then just a character that is purchased as an upgrade. This is not the same as the Upgrade Characters referred to on page 47.

Now that right there is some twisted logic, Drudge.

He's a character.

He's an upgrade.

That is the very definition of upgrade character! What else COULD he be?

That line of argument is just silly.

"He's a character who is an upgrade, not an upgrade character." That doesn't even make sense by GW's slack definitions of sense.

Im not sure whether he is an upgrade character so ill hold my tongue from this part of the debate, but i'd warn against this kind of logic. For instance alot of demons are not effected by demonhunter powers even though, they are demons, and the weapons say they hurt demons, simply because demons in the DH codex is defined as something different. You have to be careful with definitions in GW games.

Sliggoth wrote:We know from Pg 5 the rules on units that chronus is indeed part of his tank since he is the tank commander.

Buzzz! Wrong. He is an Upgrade, not part of the unit. Is Extra Armour or a H-K Missile part of a unit?

So since we know from RAW that chronus was indeed part of the unit that was shot at, what is the arguement that the firing unit cannot then charge him?

That's some Funny non Written RaW you have there.

The fact is, he goes from being an Upgrade, to an IC. If that does not constitute forming a new unit, I doubt mankind's collective intelligence

Technically according to the rules he doesn't exist as a character until the tank he is in is destroyed. Before that he is basically an upgrade.

This going no where discus before the game or ask you TO.

From pg 47 he meets the rules for being an upgrade character (that does make him a character), from pg 5 we see that :

"Vehicle crew members - the drivers, commanders and gunners - are assumed to be an integral part of their machine"


He goes from being an upgrade character to being IC.


Since RAW tells us he is a commander of the tank (SM pg 89), and that a commander of the tank is a part of the unit (RAW pg 5) that would mean that hes part of the unit.

Why is chronus considered a vehicle upgrade instead of a character upgrade? Hes not listed under the vehicle armoury section after all. His listing looks remarkably similar to sergeant telion or any of the various IG character upgrades.

In what way is he not an upgrade character?



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:In what way is he not an upgrade character?

In the way that his rules do not say he is an Upgrade character, they say he is an Upgrade.

Protip: Fluff is not Rules.

And, where does it say that he is a vehicle upgrade? It doesnt.

Protip: Fluff is not the Rules.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:And, where does it say that he is a vehicle upgrade? It doesnt.

Protip: Fluff is not the Rules.


Sliggoth

"Chronus is always bought as an upgrade"

Oh Snap!

but going from that so are warlocks in a guardian squad

statu wrote:but going from that so are warlocks in a guardian squad

Warlocks are defined as Infantry, Chronus is not until the tank dies and makes him.

Yes but Warlocks do not have the independent character special rule and so cannot be units in their own right unless a group of them get together.

i emant that they are upgrades

statu wrote:i emant that they are upgrades

No, they are upgrade characters. Chronus is an Upgrade the same as Extra Armour.

actually warlocks highlight the difference between upgrade characters and chronus.


Warlocks and upgrade characters have wounds, a presence on the battlefield and can fire weaponry fight etc and have wounds allocated onto them.

Chronus cannot, not until he leaves the tank and gains his rules.

Except that we have absolutely nothing telling us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade except for some wishful thinking. Or else give me an indication of where the rules tell us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade like extra armor?


While the rules for character upgrade does fit Chronus. He is fielded as part of a unit from the start of the game (hence his being under the vehicle category to start). He doesnt have an entry of his own and is effectively just another trooper in the unit (in this case we are told in the RAW that he is the tank commander). And he has enhanced characteristics ( improved BS and ignoring stun/ shaken). He meets ALL of the rules for a character upgrade.

He doesnt have to have separate wounds because he is fielded as part of a vehicle unit, he is a part of the unit and is replacing the commander so he is not adding any wounds to the unit.


Really the more we look at this, the clearer it becomes that chronus fits the bill as a character upgrade.

He does have a special rule that allows him to possibly escape the destruction of his unit, which thereby changes his unit type to infantry.


Sliggoth

i think that the reason he only gets his statline and the rest of his special rules is that, normally you cannot target anyone inside a tank, therefore there is no need for him to have a statline

Sliggoth wrote:Except that we have absolutely nothing telling us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade except for some wishful thinking. Or else give me an indication of where the rules tell us Chronus is a vehicle upgrade like extra armor?

he doesn't have to be a Vehicle upgrade, because he is just an Upgrade. Not a Upgrade Character.

But this is just becoming a case of "Gwar Tells you what the rule is, people ignore Gwar because they don't like him, 30 goto 10".

the definition of an upgrade character from page 47 of the Rule Book is "Fielded as part of units from the start of the game(Chronus fits this) representing a squad leader or unit champion, such as a space marine veteran sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own(oh dear, Chronus does) and are effectively just another trooper in their unit(Chronus is once again not inline with this) with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices"


Therefore Chronus only fits one of the three criteria for being an upgrade character.

Gwar! wrote:Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

Gwar! Just wondering, but do you walk around with the BRB all day?

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

Gwar! Just wondering, but do you walk around with the BRB all day?

Yes.

Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

combo wrote:Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

I'm unemployed ;(

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:In what way is he not an upgrade character?

In the way that his rules do not say he is an Upgrade character, they say he is an Upgrade.

Protip: Fluff is not Rules.

Yup he's an upgrade for your army (not for the tank), that starts as a tank commander and later may become an actual IC. Because he only becomes an IC or a character at all after the tank is destroyed, he could never have been shot at or counted as being a transport in the tank at all. The rule is only for models that were being transported in the vehicle at the time. Besides if you follow he is counted as having been in the vehicle and can then be assaulted, that would mean you can only take him for tanks with a transport capacity and takes up space inside it.



-Orkishly


Automatically Appended Next Post:

combo wrote:Don't know about Gwar, but I actually do have the BRB next to me the majority of the day. Im working from home at the moment and the BRB is always sitting on my desk

That's what I call rule dedication
Sorry about your lack of a job Gwar! Hope you find a job soon.

GW should hire Gwar to fix their rules. I bet he'd do it cheap.

Give him a few bottles of rum and he'd do it for free.