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No but he clearly fits the definitions for another killpoint and doesn't have a rule stating he is not counted as another killpoint. Ergo he is using strict RaW another killpoint.

@Gwar: No it doesn't. Just becuase you're an IC does not mean you are automatically an extra kill point. If he is an uprade for the unit (vehichle or whatever) then he would not be an extra kill point.


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@combo: Ah! It does not say whether or Not he is another killpoint. It gives no guidance EITHER way.

At the end of the game, each player receives 1 'kill point' for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed.

Tank + Cronus = 2 KP

page 91 "At the end of the game, each player recieves 1 kill point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed"

page3 "A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero"

But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

The fact that he gains the IC rule, and changes Unit type, and Gains a profile he didn't have before CLEARLY mean he is the same unit </sarcasm>

Please remember that Chronus is obviously a SPECIAL case. You can't just say "he's an independant charachter" and be done wiv it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But you are ASSUMING that Chronus is a different unit entirely. I don't think that has been quite established yet (despite many peoples protests)

Page47: "independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right"


and as earlier shown, each unit gives a kill point

Dammit, when are you going to get it that he has the SAME profile. The vehichle USES HIS BS!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Dammit, when are you going to get it that he has the SAME profile. The vehichle USES HIS BS!

Yes, the vehicle uses his BS, not his profile. he doesn't have one till the tank assplodes

page 89 of the Space marine codex

"When the damage has been resolved place him within 2" of the vehicles position. If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile"


Therefore he gets the profile once his vehicle is destroyed, but beforehand he does not have a profile, just the ability to allow a unit to use his BS5.

As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But this does not clarify him as a NEW unit. You are (at this point) aparently only ASSUMING he is.

Also how do you think the vehichle GETS the BS5? By having Chronus, no?

At my gaming store we play it as if he replaces a crew member inside the tank and is hence being ´transported´ inside the tank and so when his take blows he is assualtable. By the way... he is in the tank he is an upgrade nowhere in the rules does it say he is a new unit. no where. He is just an upgrade with a chance to keep going. Besides in the codex he is bought as an upgrade for an existing unit he isnt a unit in his own right. Its kind of like buying a hunterkiller missile or something except instead of a missile you get a plus one to your bs

Kyrolon wrote:As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But he is not part of a Retinue, for a number of reasons:
1) You cant have Mixed Vehicle and non Vehicle outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules suggests this is the case
2) Retinues are non existent past the Ork Codex at least. The rules for Retinues are for Legacy Codexes
3) If you admit he is a Extra KP, he has to be a different unit.


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scifi112233 wrote:at my gaming store we play it as if he replaces a crew member inside the tank and is hence being ´transported´ inside the tank and so when his take blows he is assualtable.

Your club could serve Free Hookers and Pie, doesn't change the fact that your view holds no basis in rules.

Emperors Faithful, if he has the profile whilst still in the tank, he also has his Rules surely?

If that is the case if the land raider blows up and Chronus doesn't survive then you lost two kill points anyway, an independent character even if permently attached to another unit still gives a killpoint.

Your arguement and Gwar!s arguement both end in him counting as a killpoint, if brought to their logical conclusion. They just get there by different means.

............ thats only in the back for ´privileged´ members of the store Its just how we interpret the rules. And this is just another example of the man (i.e. GW) trying to turn us agaisnt eachother and keep us from uniting to put the man down.

scifi112233 wrote:............ thats only in the back for ´privileged´ members of the store Its just how we interpret the rules. And this is just another example of the man (i.e. GW) trying to turn us agaisnt eachother and keep us from uniting to put the man down.

Would you like to buy a tinfoil hat?

no i already have one.. i have spares if you want one

Look, IMO, there are two ways to interperet the rule. Both I think, are entirely acceptable.

1) Chronus can be charged. But only counts as 1 kill point. (as the vehichle is not truly dead until HE dies)

2) Chronus cannot be charged. But counts as a completley different unit and another kill point. (2 overall)

YMMV.

#2 is correct

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:As much as I disagree with Gwar on whether Chronus is part of the unit, I must agree that he offers an additional killpoint. As I've argued that he counts as an upgrade to the unit, I'll approach it from that perspective. Check the rules on retinues. An IC attached to a unit that he cannot leave counts that unit as a retinue (even if it isn't titled as such). Since Chronus (by either my interpretation or Gwar's) fits this definition, he offers an additional kll point just as something like a broodlord does.

But he is not part of a Retinue, for a number of reasons:
1) You cant have Mixed Vehicle and non Vehicle outside of Artillery. Nothing in Chronus rules suggests this is the case
2) Retinues are non existent past the Ork Codex at least. The rules for Retinues are for Legacy Codexes
3) If you admit he is a Extra KP, he has to be a different unit

1.) I['ve covered that one previously.
2.) The definition of retinues says nothing about "only legacy codexes" it only mentions characters that are bound to a unit that become IC's when the unit dies.
3.) First, I admit nothing. and second that does not mean he has to be a seperate unit at the time the tank was shot anymore than a broodlord is a seperate unit to his retinue. Or are you arguing that if all the stealers die to shooting you can't assault the broodlord?

On the subject of Cronus' profile. Please tell me how, if he has no profile, he can have a BS?

Number one would be completely unacceptable and I would pack up my models if someone tried it against me.

It would be like someone argueing that you don't get the Killpoint for a Troop Choice whilst a dedicated transport still survives.

he doesnt have a profile in the vechile he simply upgrades the bs

@combo: But isn't chronus an upgrade for the vehcihle? Passengers are seperate. Transport are seperate.

I am arguing that in this case chronus is assumed to be part of the vehichle. A bolter that lives after a wrecked result.

2) is not necessarialy correct. It is just a way of playing. It is just as acceptable as 1). it depends on what floats you're boat.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@combo: But isn't chronus an upgrade for the vehcihle?

Yes, he is an Upgrade, just like a Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter or Extra Armour is an Upgrade.

40k uses a permissive rule system. If it doesn't say you can, you can't. If it doesn't say it is, it isn't.

It doens't say Chronus is part of a tank's retinue. It doesn't say he is a crewmember (these no longer even exist rules wise). It doesn't say he's joined to the tank. It says the tank uses his BS, and that when the tank dies if you roll high enough he gets placed near it. That is all.

Actually two is Correct, one is a perfectly valid playstyle for some, but it isnt rules as written. He is an upgrade for part of the tank yes, but when the tank dies he becomes an independent character, and independent characters are always individual units, and individual units always grant a KP.

Thats a pretty clear ruling I think.

If you start arguing that an independent character that is an upgrade is not an individual Killpoint, then you have no rules to back you up apart from how you think the game should be played, which is fine, but it shouldnt be passed of as a legimate RaW arguement.

@Drudge: It doesn't say he is a new unit. So he isn't, right?

@Gwar: So how does he give you an extra kill point. If he is an upgrade for the vehcihle then he MUST be viable for assualt.

@combo: I don't see where you're coming from. Both are ENTIRELY viable arguments and ways ofv playing. I am saying that there IS NO absolutley correct way of playing as there is no solid RAW for this case.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Gwar: So how does he give you an extra kill point. If he is an upgrade for the vehcihle then he MUST be viable for assualt.

Because as I have said, he becomes a new unit AFTER the tank assplodes. Before that, he is nothing but a Vehicle Upgrade.