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combo wrote:Give him a few bottles of rum and he'd do it for free.

I'd need some Limes too.

Actually chronus fits the upgrade character list better than you mgiht think.

He is fielded as as part of the unit from the start of the game.

He does not have a separate entry of his own. (He must be assigned to one tank, he can not be taken as a heavy choice on his own by himself. If he had his own entry then he would take up a heavy slot). He is an upgrade character in the same way that sergeant telion or various IG characters are.

He is just another trooper in his unit. He is the tank commander, from pg 5 under vehicles we see that the commander is one of the crew members of the tank and is thereby assumed to be an integral part of the unit.


And the rules pointing to him being a vehicle upgrade are: *crickets*


He doesnt have to have been considered a passenger since he was part of the crew (commander remember?) and is thereby still part of the original tank unit.


Sliggoth

Except as we have pointed out to you, you cannot have units of vehicles and infantry outside Artillery, which a a tank is not. Unless I have missed a Giant sentence saying "CHRONUS' TANK IS ARTILLERY", I don't think it is.

There you go again arguing Fluff as rules. Didn't you see what we said the first time?

He does have a seperate entry of his own, its clearly there at the bottom of page 143.

He is not just another trooper in his unit, as he does not have a unit. He cannot be part of that unit as the only way infantry can be part of a vehicle unit is if the vehicle is an artillrry. Even if he tanks and infantry could be part of a unit together hehe still couldn't be defined as an upgrade character as he would still not be an enhanced version of his unit, as his unit is a tank and he is infantry, he's clearly not an enhanced tank...

+1

If he had a separate entry then he would take up a heavy slot, are you saying that Chronus only allows a SM to take two heavy slot choices plus himself? The separate entry part is what determines if the character is an upgrade (has to be bought as an upgrade to another unit) or is an IC. Chronus's entry is written exactly the same as Telion's and the various IG upgrade characters. If his entry counts as a separate entry, then so do all those others. Which would then mean that all those others are ICs, take up a force slot and count as a KP. Which none of them do, so no he doesnt have a separate entry in the codex. Counting his listing as a separate entry would make any of the other character listings also eat up force slots. None of there characters can be taken alone, they are all upgrades to another unit.


Chronus is a part of the tank unit, of course he isnt infantry to start with. Pg 5 the RAW tells us that the commander of the tank is an integral part of the unit so he is indeed considered a part of the vehicle unit. He only becomes an IC and infantry once he survives the rest of unit being destroyed. GW in a moment of clarity realized that since hes walking around he would need to be called an infantry unit from that point forward.

There is no need to worry about a combined unit of infantry and vehicles since as the commander of the tank Chronus is considered part of the vehicle unit.

Which exact part of the RAW do we have trouble with here?

From his entry in his codex and pg 5 in the brb we know that Chronus is commander of a tank, thereby he is a part of the vehicle unit and for game purposes is counted as part of the vehicle unit. I am not saying that he is an infantry unit when hes in his tank.

From the upgrade character rules on pg 47 we see that Chronus is an upgrade character.

The only unusual thing about chronus is that he can possibly survive the destruction of the rest uf his vehicle unit. He doesnt automatically survive, he can be killed by the fire.

Since he was a part of the unit, he can of course then be charged by whatever unit(s) shot at him earlier in the turn.


Im still not seeing any reason at all to count chronus as a vehicle upgrade. Nothing refers to him as a vehicle upgrade, he is bought as an upgrade to a tank unit just like all the other upgrade characters are bought as upgrades to their units. The only thing unusual about him is that he can survive the destruction of his tank, while pask from the IG cannot.


Sliggoth

But he doesnt survive his tank getting destroyed, the tank commander aspect of him dies and in its place an entirely new Independent character is spawned.


Even if he is an upgrade character when hes in the tank, that part of him dies when the tank dies, he's an independent character afterward.

Again, Arguing fluff as rules...

Someone leave a record stuck?

Fluff, hmm, so the definition of fluff is anything in the rules that doesnt agree with your view?

What I have mentioned is all part of the rules, not part of any fluff heading in any of the books.

The only stuck record would appear to be the one of saying that chronus is a vehicle upgrade while pointing to nothing in the raw that supports that claim.


@combo His rules specifically say that Chronus dies on a roll of 1-2. On a roll of 3+ he does not die and changes into an infantry unit with an infantry stat line. We are told its still chronus, he just is using his infantry statline from that point on whereas he was previously part of a vehicle unit.


Sliggoth

also units of Warlocks in the Eldar codex can be bought without taking up a force organisation chart. Likewise so are Command Squads in the Space Marine codex. Being in a grey box does not automatically make them an upgrade character or a force organisation choice.

combo wrote:also units of Warlocks in the Eldar codex can be bought without taking up a force organisation chart. Likewise so are Command Squads in the Space Marine codex. Being in a grey box does not automatically make them an upgrade character or a force organisation choice.

No, bad combo. </Newspaper2Nose> Disagreeing with him makes you an evil troll!

Combo is coming up with good points and showing reasons in the various rules to back up his interpetation. THAT is certainly not trollish behaviour.


@combo I agree completly that being in a grey box doesnt make them an upgrade character or a force organization choice. But a grey box unit is not a separate unit that can be taken by itself. All of those boxes are units that can only be taken as an upgrade if you are also taking some other unit as well. Warlocks can be bought if you buy a farseer, command squads can be bought if you buy a SM captain, any of the upgrade characters can be bought if you buy whatever type of unit that they are an upgrade for.
None of them are a separate stand alone listing.
If they had a separate listing then they would take up a force slot and be an independent unit or IC.
Thats what pg47 is telling us, that an upgrade character isnt an IC that takes up a unit slot.


Sliggoth

Actually the specific wording of the rule is

"if a result is a 3 or more chronius leaps clear at the last second - when the damage has been resolved place him within 2" of the vehicles position. if Chronius vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following Special Rules for the reimainder of the game: and the shall know no fear, combat tactics, independent character. He may not take command of a different tank"

He doesn't at any point disembark from the tank, he is just placed within two inches of it. But that just regards whether he counts as a passanger wereas he is clearly not.

Your arguement hinges on the idea that a tank is an amalgamation of Commander crew and tank making a multipersonal unit and that when the tank is destroyed the unit itself is not destroyed as the upgrade character survives, keeping the same units alive technically. However thats not true as Chronius becomes an independent character, which is a unit in its own right, as it becomes one in either the shooting or assault phase and IC can only join units in the movement phase. So even if he is an upgrade character the point is unimportant as he loses being an upgrade character part of a unit and becomes an independent character, a unit in its own right.

Yes, his rule makes it clear that it is indeed still chronus all the way through the process. It was Chronus inside the tank, it was chronus leaping clear and it is chronus who turns into an IC.



@ combo And now that line of reasoning is a good one. Chronus now has the IC rule and is no longer an upgrade character, so he follows the IC rules. That is the basis for an arguement that chronus is now a new unit, replacing the old unit of which he was a part.


Very good, it argues that all the rest of us were wrong because we got bogged down in the details but that since Chronus changes from an upgrade character to an IC he forms an entirely new unit. So he is no longer a part of the old vehicle unit, as a new unit he cannot be charged.


That makes a good deal of sense from how the rules are written. Its moved me from thinking that for certain hes still the same unit to now very uncertain indeed for charging purposes.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:That makes a good deal of sense from how the rules are written. Its moved me from thinking that for certain hes still the same unit to now very uncertain indeed for charging purposes.

And the fact that I have been saying this since page one is not a factor because....

A Gwar Well, because you were stating that Chronus was simply a vehicle upgrade. So then the arguement spun off into the sidelines about proving that he was indeed an upgrade character.

Combo developed the arguement on Chrono being an upgrade character and made a line of reasoning that showed that the switch of Chronus from an upgrade character to an IC might very well make him an entirely new unit, thereby making him immune to a charge.

This line of reasoning doesnt seem to have anything in the raw that would contradict it, so its a valid point that stands well.


Just stating over and over that chronus is a vehicle upgrade isnt up to your usual standards of basing well thought out arguements on arcane points of the raw.


Sliggoth

If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

And i aree with Gwar. The stuff where it says that crewmembers are part of their vehicles is fluff put in to clarify why there are no longer rules for them like there were in old codexes.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

And i aree with Gwar. The stuff where it says that crewmembers are part of their vehicles is fluff put in to clarify why there are no longer rules for them like there were in old codexes.

I'd disagree. It is in the section defining what makes up a unit (through examples). That's hardly fluff. If it is you have a pretty broad definition of fluff.

Kyrolon wrote:If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

Their are different rules concerning retinue characters, the point is the strange nature of Chronus and the fact he gains the Independent Character rule when the tank is destroyed, therefore my arguement only holds true for Chronus, and any other "upgrade Character" that gains Independent character USR when its unit is destroyed. I dont think another such example exists.

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

His model when on the tank is representative. Its not its own based model. Its part of the tank put there to represent Chronus being on it. I don't see how that could be part of a squad any more than the stormbolter or extra armor could.

combo wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:If we accept Combo's point that Chronus (who was part of the unit that was shot) becomes a new unit when he gains the IC rules, then what about other cases of this happening? There are other characters that change status from UC to IC. The Broodlord is the best example I can think of.

If I shoot at a Brooldlord's retinue (where he counts as an UC because it is a retinue) and wipe out the genestealers does that make the BL a whole new unit that I can't assault?

That's essentially the statement combo is making in regard to Chronus. He was part of the unit that was shot when it was shot. Changing his profile, even if he's now a unit of 1 infantry, doesn't negate the fact that he was shot at. Otherwise this would apply to any of the remaining "retinue" characters (Broodlords, Inquisitors, Archons, an maybe a couple I missed) as well.

Their are different rules concerning retinue characters, the point is the strange nature of Chronus and the fact he gains the Independent Character rule when the tank is destroyed, therefore my arguement only holds true for Chronus, and any other "upgrade Character" that gains Independent character USR when its unit is destroyed. I dont think another such example exists.

See, I don't see Chronus as that different. The retinue rules may conver specific situations, but their effect is to make the IC count as a unit UC while part of the retinue. So, if they go from unit UC to IC upon the death of said retinue, that (to me at least) is the same as Chronus going from UC to IC when his tank dies, or a techmarine going from unit member to IC if his thunderfire gets blown up. I don't see any of the three cases making a whole new unit that was not part of the original unit that was shot at. In ebery case there was potential for the subject to die along with the unit from the fire that killed the rest of the unit whether is was the IC's retinue, the techmarine's thunderfire, or Chronus' tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:I may be way off on this one, but can't only models be part of a unit? And Chronus's model when he's in a tank is purely representative. He can't be in the same unit as a tank because he has no model.

I'd say the half a guy you have to buy and add to the tank to represent him would be called a model.

His model when on the tank is representative. Its not its own based model. Its part of the tank put there to represent Chronus being on it. I don't see how that could be part of a squad any more than the stormbolter or extra armor could.

Except as sliggoth has pointed out numerous times (as have I earlier) he's not a vehicle upgrade. The model represents the character named Chronus, not a piece of wargear.

But chronus is different, Independent characters with retinues still have the independent character special rule, Chronus doesn't, he only gains it when the tank dies, no other model in the game to my knowledge apart from Chronus gains the independent character rule half way through.

Telion if his scouts die isnt an independent character, he's just an upgrade character who happens to be all thats left in its squad.

it tends to be either an independent character can have a retinue, in which case he's an IC with a attached retinue, and if the retinue dies he's still an IC, he just doesnt have a retinue anymore. Or they are upgrade characters attached to a squad or unit, if the unit dies they are still upgrade characters, they just no longer have their unit.

Chronus is a one off, he is an upgrade character who gains the independent character special rule when his unit dies.
The closest thing to chronus is the Techmarine with thunderfire cannon, but even then the Techmarine has the independent character special rule even when he is part of the thunderfire cannon team, Chronus does not.

Ok, combo, I now see the distinction you are making, and it does make Chronus slightly different. In my judgement though, that difference isn't enough to make a practical difference in how it's played. The way I see it the fact that Chronus gains a new rule does not make him a new unit. I am also swayed by the fact that Chronus can die by the same fire that killed his tank. That (to me anyway) is a strong indication that he could be assaulted.

In other words, we agree on what the rules say, and on which rules apply, but we disagree on what they mean.

This thread is generating a fair amount of Mod Alerts for rudeness and such.

7 pages and counting, and it doesn't look like its going to get 'settled' anytime soon.

Keep it on topic and polite.

Well I mean no disrespect Kyrolon I think you should read the rules for independent characters in the BRB again, as it states they are units in their own right, as soon as he gains IC he becomes a unit in his own right.

combo wrote:Well I mean no disrespect Kyrolon I think you should read the rules for independent characters in the BRB again, as it states they are units in their own right, as soon as he gains IC he becomes a unit in his own right.

I understand that, and don't disagree. But, I don't think becoming a unit in his own right makes him ineligible for assault. He is now a unit by himself rather than part of the tank, but he was still part of the tank unit when it was shot.

This goes back to our discussion of other IC's that start as UC's. Even though they start with the IC rule and Chronus doesn't, both they and Chronus (as you have pointed out) become units in their own right upon the death of the unit they were previously part of. In all the examples we discussed (retinue, Thunderfire, Chronus) the unit that is formed by a newly "orphaned" IC was previously part of another unit, and not a unit on its own at all.

In my opinion then, based on that reasoning, if you can't assault Chronus for the reason that he is a new unit, then any IC that gets spun off from a destroyed unit they couldn't leave before works the same way. In all the cases the IC is not its own unit until the associated unit (retinue, cannon, or tank) dies, so you'd have to apply your interpretation equally to all three.

I'd still say though that "being a unit in his own right" does not make him a new unit. It just changes the way he bahaves on the battlefield. Chronus, as a unit was always there, he just couldn't leave his tank before.

Im not quite sure you understand my reasoning yet. My examples were not that when they become orphaned from their unit they become units in all cases.

Independent characters that are independent characters when they are already joined to the unit are still part of the unit after the unit dies because of the rule that independent characters can only join or leave the unit during the movement phase. This is the only reason why you can charge independent characters when the unit they were in dies.

However if a unit gains independent character rule when the unit dies, it becomes a unit in its own right, and obviously cannot be part of a unit as it can only join in the movement phase.

Also I disagree that Chronius is effected by the fire from a destroyed vehicle. The passangers and anyone with in d6 inches is effected by an explosion but Chronius is not, as he spawns after it.

Ok, I think your argument is a little clearer now, but I still disagree that being an independent character negates the fact that Chronus was a part of the unit that got shot .

Even though he can only join in the movement phase, this is irrelevant as he was already part of the unit due to his own rules that said he had to be.

Gaining the IC rule does not change what was already done. To try to put it simply, he doesn't need to join the dead unit. He was already a part of it when it died whether he had the IC rule or not.

I"m not sure what you mean about the fire from the destroyed vehicle, I didn't intend to say that it affected Chronus. It seems clear he can't be placed til after that.

Fro what it's worth, I understand the points you are making, combo, and they are well reasoned, I just happen to disagree with them. If you wish to continue our discussion (which I am finding interesting and polite) feel free. I'll be away from my computer for the next several hours at least. If you post more please don't think I am ignoring you.

He acts as an upgrade until the tank is destroyed. When it is destroyed he is placed near the wreck. Technically Upgrade Chronus and IC Chronus are two different things as it can be assumed as Upgrade Chronus dies with the tank and on a 3+ IC Chronus is placed on the table. Anyone seen The Prestige? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/

That's kind of how I see the rules regarding Chronus working as a way to simplify it. It is Chronus, but isn't at the same time.