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After reading the intelligent arguements accurately refrencing the rules, I understand combo's reasoning. His last post explained it well. Until there is an errata I would treat him like no other model in the game. Similar to Kharn the Betrayer who has rule unique only to him. Great work on explaining your positions and reasoning, combo and Kyrolon.

edited for spelling. Is there a spell checker in here?

So the fact that I was right from the start means nothing?

Or is it When Gwar! says it he is an donkey-cave but when someone else says the EXACT SAME THING he is suddenly Jesus 2.0?

Looks that way Gwar!

Gwar, you are right it's just that it takes time of discussion to explain reasoning to people. People won't just take another persons opinion as the word of God.

You have a fantastic track record(heck i dont think there has been a single time were you've been wrong that i've seen) for being right, but you do tend to get a bit aggravated rather than keep your cool and argue your point!

Please do not take my comment as a jab personally. I prefer to able to explain why something is so everyone can understand. combo and Kyrolon did a fine job with that. Being right is a good thing. Being able to articulate why you are right is even better. In my opinion of course.

With the IC question that combo raises it now comes down to a real gap in the RAW as to whether or not Chronus is a valid charge target or not. Is the change to IC status and forming a new unit enough to mean that the Chronus no longer counts as having been part of the previous tank unit?

Chronus has definitely changed (we do know its still Chronus because his rule on surviving the destruction of his vehicles tells us that) status; the question is whether or not he still has enough ties to his vehicle to still be considered the same unit.

The rules just dont tell us enough about what is going on with him. If he forms an entirely new unit then that would be a pretty clean break and indicate that he can no longer be counted as any part of the previous tank unit.

But if the various changes to his status are just that ...changes... then he is still part of the same unit just with new stats.

He is certainly affected by new rules in his new form, but nothing explicitly tells us he is an entirely new unit for certain. There are indications that he may be a new unit, but it could all just be changes to an existing unit. Either way he is in a class by himself.


But the changes are fairly major, far more so than any other character changes in the game. Other characters can have changes in their statlines and special rules during the course of a game without becoming a new unit but Chronus seems to be unique in being able to change his unit type.

Is it enough? I dont think we can tell for certain, as enough reasonable question has been raised to move this into the area of we need a FAQ answer to know which way to go.


Sliggoth

Folks, you are being trolled by GWAR. This is how he laughs at you. Find something in the rulebook where its not 100% covered by the rules, and he'll argue the same sad arguement until you are blue in the face.

Space Marine codex "Chronos is an upgrade to a vehicle unit. When the vehicle is no more, there is a 3+ chance chronos lives and is placed within 2" of the wreck."

If he's part of the vehicle unit as suggested by the space marine codex, then he's a viable target to assault.
If you argue he's not part of the vehicle unit as the space marine codex suggests, then he nearly enough follows the same rules as passengers of a blown up vehicle, that you may still assault him if you have range. According to the BRB (big red book) crew are considered to be dead or non-combantants, thus no rules are further needed on how to handle them. Chronos is a crew member who lives, the most logical thing to do is treat him the same way as passengers.

Chronos is unique, but not an independant character. Either way he appears to be assaultable by the same unit that blew up the vehicle.
Edit- I have made an erroneous statement, my appologies, he is IC, oops!
Happy Hunting.

Sazzlefrats wrote:the most logical thing to do is treat him the same way as passengers

Except for that fact that he isn't, and therefore cannot be assaulted because he was an Upgrade, and then turned into a separate unit.

combo wrote:Gwar, you are right it's just that it takes time of discussion to explain reasoning to people. People won't just take another persons opinion as the word of God.

You have a fantastic track record(heck i dont think there has been a single time were you've been wrong that i've seen) for being right, but you do tend to get a bit aggravated rather than keep your cool and argue your point!

GWAR just stated in this thread that Chronos is an IC... That is absolutely wrong.

Edited: He does become an IC

Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

This was too funny Gwar!, thank you.

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.



Edit- I have made an erroneous statement, my appologies

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.

Protip: READ HIS SPECIAL RULES.

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Chronus is an IC once his tank dies... because he is a new unit and is worth a second KP, because he is A SEPARATE UNIT.

NO you are wrong. He is not an independant character... show me. prove it. you can't. done and done.

Protip: READ HIS SPECIAL RULES.

Ahhh... I'm wrong!!!!!! AYIYIYIYYYEEEEE!!!!! Wow that does hurt... not so done as I thought.


Reguardless: Follow - part II of what I was saying, close enough to the same rules as passengers.

Close, but no Cigar is the phrase you want.

He is not a passenger, so he cannot be assaulted by the unit who blew up the tank.

He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

I have already addressed this in my first post. Thank you.

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:He was transported by the tank, crew or not, close enough, he's assaultable

So are you saying that if he has command of a Rhino or Razorback or Land Raider, no other unit may embark? Because he doesn't get IC until after the tank dies, so if he is a passenger, no other unit may embark.

No

So how is he a Passenger?

I have already addressed this in my first post. Thank you.

No, he is either a Passenger or not. If he is, no other unit may embark.

He isn't though, so the point is moot.

Moot points are up for debate.

kirsanth wrote:Moot points are up for debate.

Oh hai guise you called?

And again,

kirsanth wrote:This was too funny Gwar!, thank you.

LOL

Why do we care about other units embarking? GWAR stop throwing in abuigity!

When a vehicle with Chronos blows up, if Chronos lives, he's assaultable just like any other passenger. His special rules allow him to be exempt from the other infantry rules while aboard his vehicle. However when he's expelled from the wrecked vehicle, he's treated like any other disembarked passenger.

And you will say, "but he's not a passenger" and you are right... sort of. Not really. you'll find some logical fallacy to argue with. but thats ok, thats how you debate.

No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

You know how sometimes in this game, something counts as something for one purpose but in all other respects is something else?

Sazzlefrats wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I am saying if he is treated as a Passenger, then he must count as the Transports passengers. If he does, no other unit can embark.

You know how sometimes in this game, something counts as something for one purpose but in all other respects is something else?

Yeah, but where does it say Chronus counts as a passenger? Nowhere.

Where's Frazz and his picture of beating a dead horse when you need him?

Sazzlecats, you're bringing up arguements that have already been disproven in this eight page thread, this is why when we seem to be coming to a close in a discussion it always gets brought back up, because people feel the need to voice their opinions without checking the validility of them.


Your entitled to your opinion, but if your going to ignroe the huge discussion that has disproven it and spout it of as fact then you cannot be surprised when people don't take you seriously.