Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a squad shoots and blows up a transport, they may then assault the unit inside. If a squad shoots and blows up chronus's tank, may they then assault him if he comes out?

No, because Chronos is not a Passenger and has his own special rules of what to do if the tank he is in is assploded.

Thats what i thought. Do you know the page number for where it says you can assault people that've been blown out of their transport? Can't find it, but i remember it was somewhere weird.

Page 67, Paragraph above the Dedicated Transports Box

I'm curious on the reasoning behind this one. I'll assume for now that you are correct about him not being a passenger. However, assuming he survived, wasn't he a part of the unit you shot (being an upgrade character and all)? What would stop you from assaulting him, you shot his unit?

If you are claiming he becomes a new unit after his survival, then wouldn't the same apply to any IC that was part of a squad?

Example: A chaplain attaches to an assault squad. The assault squad is gunned down to the man, leaving the chappie all alone. He's now his own unit.

Is your argument that since the chaplain in now a different unit than was shot at he cannot be assaulted? Because if that's what you are saying about Chronus, then you'd have to apply it here as well.

Can you explain what is different about Chronus that makes him unassaultable?

Kyrolon wrote:I'm curious on the reasoning behind this one. I'll assume for now that you are correct about him not being a passenger. However, assuming he survived, wasn't he a part of the unit you shot (being an upgrade character and all)? What would stop you from assaulting him, you shot his unit?

If you are claiming he becomes a new unit after his survival, then wouldn't the same apply to any IC that was part of a squad?

Example: A chaplain attaches to an assault squad. The assault squad is gunned down to the man, leaving the chappie all alone. He's now his own unit.

Is your argument that since the chaplain in now a different unit than was shot at he cannot be assaulted? Because if that's what you are saying about Chronus, then you'd have to apply it here as well.

Can you explain what is different about Chronus that makes him unassaultable?

Because the rules specifically state the only time you may declare an assault against a unit other than the one you shot at is in the case of a Transport and Passengers.

Your example of a Chaplain and Marines is incorrect, for the following reason. The Chaplain and the Marines form a Single unit when he is attached, as per the rules on IC's joining units. IC's may only ever leave a unit in the Movement phase. Therefore, if all the Marines die to anything but Dangerous terrain tests (now how embarrassing would that be, especially in the Opponents shooting Phase[Disregarding Lash Of Course] Oy Vey!), the Chaplain remains part of the same unit (albeit one that has suffered casualties) until the next movement phase.

So yeah, I am claiming he becomes a New unit when he survives, mainly because, ya know, he does. Unless you want to somehow Claim that a Land Raider (who just Assploded) is the Same unit as a Infantry Independent Character.

I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Kyrolon wrote:I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Actually, yeah, he does not exist as a Unit until the Land Raider is Destroyed. Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank. When the tank is destroyed, it creates a new unit consisting of Chronus, with his profile, Wargear and rules. As such, he then can offer up a kill point, which is another point to him being a new unit.

Can you explain to me how a Unit of 1 model that has a Different Name, profile and Special Rules to the other Unit of 1 model you shot at be the same unit?

Gwar! wrote:

Kyrolon wrote:I guess my question is in what way was Chronus not a part of the vehicle unit? He was bought as an upgrade for it, and he couldn't leave it. Just because the vehicle died doesn't mean the whole unit must cease to exist.

I don't see how Chronus was NOT a part of the Land Raider he was there after all even though he couldn't leave it. Thre chaplain example may not be identical, but it is certainly much the same as a retinue (the few that remain) in that he WAS an upgrade character that was part of a unit, and now he's an IC on his own. I don't see any difference there.

The only way i can see an application of your point Gwar is if you are saying Chronus simply doesn't exist AT ALL until the vehicle dies. If that's what you are saying, I'd disagree. Just because he can't leave his ride does not mean he doesn't exist.

Actually, yeah, he does not exist as a Unit until the Land Raider is Destroyed. Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank. When the tank is destroyed, it creates a new unit consisting of Chronus, with his profile, Wargear and rules. As such, he then can offer up a kill point, which is another point to him being a new unit.

Can you explain to me how a Unit of 1 model that has a Different Name, profile and Special Rules to the other Unit of 1 model you shot at be the same unit?

Just because he has a different name and profile doesn't mean he can't be part of a unit (see inquisitors and retinues--many different profiles, one unit). Likewise, the fact that his profile isn't used while he is in his vehicle is irrelevant to his existence. Embarked units profiles aren't used, yet they exist, don't they?

Since Chronus has a codex entry and has a statline, he must exist as a model. Now we know models that are in vehicles, while not on the table, do still exist. Just because Chronus can't leave his assigned vehicle does not mean he doesn't exist.

Since Chronus exists, and since he is part if the vehicle unit (an IC with a unit he can't leave just like a retinue) then when you shoot at the vehicle you are also shooting at him. If you weren't than how is it he can either live or die by the same fire?

Since I believe Chronus exists (whether I've convinced you or not ) I see one of two "states of being" for him.

He is either:
A: part of the vehicle unit (as explained above)
B: a passenger in the vehicle.

Since his live/die roll is not the same as the disembarking passenger rule, I'd say A is correct. As far as the OP goes though, in either case he can be assaulted.

Edit: I go sleep now. Check back tomorrow.

Well, lets look at it from a Logical Standpoint:
Pre Shooting: A land Raider
Post Shooting: A Guy on Foot.

No, that is not the same Unit. Live with it. Also, as I have pointed out, yes he has a Profile, but only when the tank is destroyed. Until that point he DOES NOT EXIST FOR ANY GAME PURPOSES WHATSOEVER.

Or are you suggesting that he should take a Morale test for 25% Unit casualties the turn he arrives?

Correction:

Gwar! wrote:Pre Shooting: A land Raider

, including an upgrade that must be displayed by an actual model. (Page 89, SM Codex: "Use the tank commander model of Chronus to represent this."

Gwar! wrote:Post Shooting: A Guy on Foot.


Or are you suggesting that he should take a Morale test for 25% Unit casualties the turn he arrives?

Quite Possibly. I seem to remember a rule about ICs not needing to take checks if the unit they were with was wiped out before the end of shooting. Is that still valid?

Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Webbe wrote:Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Show me anything in the rules that allows an "upgrade" to be part of a unit. Before the tank is destroyed, you have a special rule that gives you some bonuses called Chronus. After it is destroyed, you have a guy on foot.

Lets not even talk about how you can't have a unit consist of a vehicle and infantry.

Honestly this seems extremely straight forward to me.

Just shoot him with another unit. It's a waste of time arguing it here if you catch my drift.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Just shoot him with another unit. It's a waste of time arguing it here if you catch my drift.

G

got agree with this ... unless he joins the unit that was being transported just shoot him and claim your free killpoint. If he does join the unit charge the unit.

If he is considered a completely seperate unit, then is Chronus worth an additional kill point in KP missions?

Sarigar: Yes.

even more simple solution, charge the unit that the land raider was transporting and double charge into chronus.

3 kill points=win.

Demogerg wrote:even more simple solution, charge the unit that the land raider was transporting and double charge into chronus.

3 kill points=win.

That is perfectly legal, declaring the assault against Chronos would not be though.

you can declare multiple targets for assaults gwar! if both are in range and you still keep coherency... so it would be legal but not as the primary target.

I'm sure this is what you meant/said, but I can see people reading your last post differently (hence the rules debate!)

frgsinwntr wrote:you can declare multiple targets for assaults gwar! if both are in range and you still keep coherency... so it would be legal but not as the primary target.

I'm sure this is what you meant/said, but I can see people reading your last post differently (hence the rules debate!)

Actually, you only ever declare the Assault against 1 Unit, the unit that you shot at. Anything else can just be moved into BTB so long as it follows the rules for multiple assaults.

I always equip Chronus with a thunder hammer and power weapon so he can rock out in close combat attacks

Green Blow Fly wrote:I always equip Chronus with a thunder hammer and power weapon so he can rock out in close combat attacks

And people call me a Troll.

-shrug-

Look at your avatar.

G

Gwar! wrote:[ Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank.

except for tank commander

statu wrote:

Gwar! wrote:[ Until the vehicle he is in is popped, he has No Profile (as it is only used after the tank is gone) and no Special Rules (likewise). All he "Does" is act as a Special Upgrade for the Tank.

except for his special rule whereby the vechile he is with being able to use his BS

Yeah, but thats all it is, you get to use BS 5, the tank doesn't become him

He is an Upgrade for the tank though, no?
HE is considered a part of the tank? The crew?

Emperors Faithful wrote:He is an Upgrade for the tank though, no?
HE is considered a part of the tank? The crew?

He is not considered a Passenger. That is all that matters.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Webbe wrote:Chronus is bought as an upgrade to a tank and is therefore part of the tank unit. If the tank is destroyed and Chronus survives the unit isn't destroyed and can thus be assaulted by anyone that shot at it.

Show me anything in the rules that allows an "upgrade" to be part of a unit. Before the tank is destroyed, you have a special rule that gives you some bonuses called Chronus. After it is destroyed, you have a guy on foot.

Lets not even talk about how you can't have a unit consist of a vehicle and infantry.

Honestly this seems extremely straight forward to me.

All upgrades are part of the unit, are you trying to say that a boy upgraded to a nob is now his own unit?

Also:

RB page 47 wrote:Upgrade characters are fielded as part of units from
the start of the game, representing a squad leader or
unit champion, such as a Space Marine Veteran
Sergeant. They do not have an entry of their own
and are effectively just another trooper in their unit,
with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider
selection of weapons and wargear choices.

The unit is not both vehicle and infantry. It's only vehicle as long as the tank is not destroyed. As soon as it is destroyed the unit becomes infantry if Chronus survives exactly as his rules say.

Yes, it BECOMES a Different Unit. It is not the same unit.