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I never played CSM codex 4.0, ive been playing CSM for two years and released the codex was a peice of gak like a month after I started the game.

The codex 4.0 was made to simplify army selection.
But what's a bit confusing is that there are Cult units dedicated to some God and CSM units with icons dedicated to some God.
I'd get rid of the latter and give CSM the undivided mark or IoGC.

It would just be nice if the doex felt more..Fluffy. On a competitive level its great but for those who are more about the fluff and feel of the army its just soo lacking..underwhelming... Yes you can have the cult tropps which dont get me wrong is great. But thats really all your getting is the cult troops. No special rules or any neat toys and tricks. Really I think the last codex was great outside of the cheese iron lists you could make. And really since now oblits are heavys. They wouldnt be any harder to deal with then IG is now.

Some interesting ideas in this thread.

I will be releasing a Death Guard codex after Space Wolves which players will like hopefully with some new units and rules

some things i would like to see

HQ
most of the HQ set ups are nice
Sorcerer
Lord

Should both be fear less and Require a Mark of a God

Spells / add a defensive spell like Hood?

Troops

KB's are good maybe make them a couple more points higher and give them fleet?

1k sons remove Slow And P ? or drop their points by 2 and keep Slow and P?

Plague marines look good maybe a point or two drop?

Empires Children. points look good maybe add a couple Blast masters make a limit like 3?


Elite
Fix possessed. allow the ability to roll before rolling for deployment?
Termi's they need fearless they should not be scared to die!
Drop points a little bit make it close to SM's the Mark is what sends them over the top. A couple more weapons would be nice

chosen look ok. a couple point drops would be nice

Dreadnought make it choose a god.
Khorne (it keeps frenzy gets 2 more attacks and +1 Int (can only be CC weapons)
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons
Slan (gets Sonic blaster and blastmaster) +1 int
Tzee gets auto cannon -ap 3 and assult cannon ap3
It has to have a mark.

Fast attack
Meh.. they need personal icons and fearless
Drop 50% of the spawn price?
Add lesser demons to this possibly?

Heavy OK meat and Potato's

Oblitorators need a Mark?
price drop by 5 points Why with T4 they can be one shot marks can give them either +1 t or extra inv save. not bad
allow to have 4 -5 per squad? keep slow and P. if we can have 5 maybe keep the 75 point cost. these models are $22 bucks a piece they getting one shot is fething dumb

Defiler why does he have int 3? it should be 4 keep WS 3 and Demonic possessed drop points a little bit maybe 10 -20?

Havoc's hmm they seem ok when i use them. fearless is needed price drop by 1-2 points would be better. Maybe even a infiltrate for extra points

Land Raider extra weapons configurations would be nice but not needed. price is decent too. i think if you take it Demonic possessed it should be free.

vindicator isnt bad
either is predator
possessed Lemon rusks or other factions would be kool its the same price as their codex NO Squads! but add 20 40 points for Demonic Possessed

IMO

I'm not really a fan of the latest CSM Codex either, having been out of the game for a couple of years. I ended up having to change a lot of things in my army, just to make it comply with rules I'm not even fond of.

Maybe I'm missing it, but it looked like Daemon Princes can't use any wargear aside from a close-combat weapon anymore (I used to be able to use a Daemon Weapon on one, along with a Mark!).

Possessed are really not worth their points anymore, unless you get really lucky on the pre-game roll (which I believe takes place after deployment, not before). Also, not having a ranged weapon of any kind was a blow to me- I had the previous Possessed which all are modelled with Bolt Pistols/Close Combat Weapons. I still haven't remodeled them to remove the pistols, and I don't know if I'll bother. Chosen seem to be a much better use of points, or even Terminators!

Daemons in generally got hit hard. I understand this is partly due to the Chaos Daemons Codex, but I don't like how Greater Daemons all have the same statistics (why on earth would a Lord of Change be as physically capable as a Bloodthirster?), and from the Codex I used to use, it seems that Bloodletters lost their Hellblades/3+ Saves.

Totally agreed on Icon Bearers too. If an Icon Bearer dies, the rest of the squad wouldn't just stop worshipping their God. Does a Nurgle squad's diseases magically clear up once the Icon Bearer dies or something?

While it's not a horrible Codex, I much preferred the one I used to use (which I think was 3rd edition). The latest Codex felt like a lot of the character had been sucked from the army list, and it feels a lot more generic and many models don't have too many options anymore. It'd be great to see the next Codex resolve some of these issues, but we'll see.

cablecing wrote:Dreadnought make it choose a god.
...
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons.

Why no Lascannon? Other than the fact that that makes the FW Death Guard Dread unplayable, it's also an arbitrary restriction. Arbitrary restrictions = bad rules design.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

cablecing wrote:Dreadnought make it choose a god.
...
Nurgle +1 to the AV normal weapons no Lazcannons.

Why no Lascannon? Other than the fact that that makes the FW Death Guard Dread unplayable, it's also an arbitrary restriction. Arbitrary restrictions = bad rules design.

HAHA just a idea

why not it gets all the other weapons and its front 13. Nice idea. its not 100% going to fly we all know that.

just a idea.
i like it
You dont
no worries

I have no problem with the Nurgle increasing armour thing - that's fine - I just don't see why it comes at the arbitrary loss of the Lascannon.

Why would its armour value affect its ability to get Lascannons any more than any other weapon? It wouldn't - hence arbitrary.

Artibrary rules = Bad rules.

I suppose what I would like new stems from what I dislike about SM(mostly cause I'm sorta jealous). I would like have legion books(or unique rules in 5th edition codex) and be able to dust off old armies for duty again. I'm saying use the old codex stuff either just a fresh revamping like some of the SM chapters.

YAY!! I have been waiting for this thread! WOO!!

Open C:\Rant

Everything - We need essentially the old 3.5 dex. I first played CSM just as 5th came out. I didnt know there was a 4th edition codex and Chaos were awesome. When I found out about the 4th Ed codex I almost cried. Instead of being Chaos Marines who were all chaotic and awesome and customizable with a back story they have become naughty marines with spikes.
They have less options, less weapons, higher costs and worse rules than loyalist SM. Cult troops are great and I love them but again things like Zerkers and NM are now just normal marines with a slightly changed statline. There's no fluff or interest in the codex anymore.
Loyalist SM are looking more and more inviting every day as I keep looking at my friends armies and wondering "Why can't my LRs fit 14 people?" and "Where are my Storm Bolters?" We are now so far behind the loyalists in everything we share and so much worse than we were with everything that is unique to us.
We've lost Daemons (and someone tell me why the HELL we can't ally with them like SM, IQ, WH and DH can?) special legions, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and the rest, no longer is there any sense of fluff. Nowadays you can have a great big zerker army led by 2 Slaaneshi Lash DP. And they'll all have weak marks. Your zerkers can hang back and shoot if you want and your summoned Pink Horrors can run straight into CC albeit not doing very well. Where's the character?
Sure I like chaos and they aren't all bad now, but in no way are they fluffy or as good as their loyalist counterparts.

Close C:\Rant

Madgod wrote:
Loyalist SM are looking more and more inviting every day as I keep looking at my friends armies and wondering "Why can't my LRs fit 14 people?" and "Where are my Storm Bolters?" We are now so far behind the loyalists in everything we share and so much worse than we were with everything that is unique to us.
Close C:\Rant

Yeah, this irritates me somewhat too. Seeing my brother's Dark Angels force more than 10 models into a Land Raider and then not being able to do the same despite having the exact same tank (albeit a little spikier) is stupid.

Upon scanning through the Codex again:
- Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerers count as Fearless but a full-on Sorcerer as HQ choice isn't?
- I miss my Chainaxe rules from 3rd Edition
- Defilers are Initiative 3? Honestly, looking through the CSM Codex, some of the Initiative Values seem out of place.
- I shake my head whenever I read Abaddon's rule page. I play Black Legion, and I refuse to use Abaddon because I think he's too good.
- Too much emphasis on Huron, rather than any rules for renegades.

It's not just I3 on the Defilers that's insulting, it's the WS3.

So they're as skilled and as fast as Guardsmen?

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's not just I3 on the Defilers that's insulting, it's the WS3.

So they're as skilled and as fast as Guardsmen?

Yeah, it doesn't seem right at all. I understand there's a bound Daemon inside them which would no doubt make them erratic in CC, but having I3 and WS3 really kills them for me. Nothing worse than having one of the largest models on the table go into CC and promptly miss every attack. I don't understand why they're so poor for CC now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I have no problem with the Nurgle increasing armour thing - that's fine - I just don't see why it comes at the arbitrary loss of the Lascannon.

Why would its armour value affect its ability to get Lascannons any more than any other weapon? It wouldn't - hence arbitrary.

Artibrary rules = Bad rules.

I think he refers to the fact that infantry with MoN can't take heavy weapons (maybe they'll fall apart if they would fire them) but that's exactly the reason why Dreadnoughts need them. Not that I would take them because I'm to afraid they'll fry my own tanks.

Madgod wrote:
We've lost Daemons (and someone tell me why the HELL we can't ally with them like SM, IQ, WH and DH can?) [...]

Because GW says that allies are Apocalypse only these days and the Inquisition books were just a byproduct of the failed Inquisitor tabletop RPG.

Neith..

Abby is good.. however he has a 1-6 chance of killing himself with his own weapon. And compare him to some of the OTT special characters in the newer dex's and he is overpriced in my eyes for what he does.

He also has a 5/6 chance of A6-10 S8 I6 Power Weapon attacks, on the defense. Dude's a buzzsaw. An expensive, diamond-encrusted buzzsaw, but still.

jp400 wrote:Neith..

Abby is good.. however he has a 1-6 chance of killing himself with his own weapon. And compare him to some of the OTT special characters in the newer dex's and he is overpriced in my eyes for what he does.

Yeah, the Daemon Weapon trait of Drach'nyen/Talon of Horus is one downside (the possibility of Wounding himself, not the +D6 attacks!), but aside from that his abilities/statistics are crazy. I don't use him (partly because I don't like how he looks), but also because I think he's too strong. What are the OTT characters you're referring to? I've been out of the hobby for a while and only just started up again, so I'm kind of out of the loop

lol its all good Neith.

Best one off the top of my head is one of the new IG Ic's.. Remember.. he is supposed to be a guardsman.

"Ironhand" Straken
WS:5 BS:4 S:6 T:4 W:3 I:3 A:3 LD:9 SV: 3+
Points: 95

Gung-Ho:
Fearless to him and his unit

Senior Officer:
2 orders at 12'' a turn. Orders list: BID, FOMT, GBITF, FRFSRF, Incomming and move move move!

Cold Steel and Courage:
"Friendly Units within 12'' of Straken have the Counter Attack and furious charge USR. This includes colonel straken and his command squad."

Man Of Adamantium: Attacks Ignore Armour and roll an additional D6 for AP.

He's still a Guardsman: T4 I3, that's a winning combination. He needs all the special rules he can get!

I never got all this hate for Imperial Guard.

They're the most effective fighting force in the entire universe.

Do you know why they are considered "weak"?

Because they've annihilated every other race that has stood in their way.

-rant mode off-

I think it's like Tau and Dark Eldar: they require more skill to use, and most beginners don't have the interest in developing the experience and the skills that follow from the experience, or the pockets to afford a decent army.

My point about the good Colonel is that him having all those special rules simply balances out his mediocre Toughness and Initiative. I mean, Fearless Guardsmen? That's not great: we all know what happens to Fearless Boyz and Fearless Termagants: Fearless hits them as a double-whammy. And Furious Charge on a Guardsman? S4 and I4 - they're almost Marines, except they don't have the WS or the A to exploit it like the Orks. Counter-Attack (Counter-Charge?) requires a leadership test, on Guardsmen mind you, to use successfully. It's all cool and characterful, but nowhere near what he needs to survive an assault by Berzerkers, or Genestealers, or Skyclaws, or Raptors, or Striking Scorpions, and so on.

It's cool that he's got a Power Fist that attacks at I3, but then that's I3. That's the Initiative people complain about Defilers having, that turns Pariahs from an assault unit into something else, that means you attack before Orks and survive, or get buried under an avalanche of Orks. And he's only S6, so the extra D6 is a nice sop to those Imperial Guards watching their tanks get opened by Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Avatars, Kharn, and so on.

Something that I really like about the 5th edition is that special rules scale depending on the models using them. Counter-attack is only as good as a unit's Leadership, for example. Fearless is only as good as their armour save. Furious Charge is only as good as WS and A. He needs all those special rules to be a live option, and he is a live option, but it's the combination of his stats with those special rules. Characters like Abbadon don't need heaps of special rules like that because he's already a murder-machine (although it would be nice if CSM Daemon Princes had the options of CD Daemon Prines, for the sake of variety).

Most of this seems is just wishlisting and sounds quite overpowered. Not to mention it's got no chance to fly under the current Jervis setup.

Things like Khornate Chainaxes and Plague Knives are not needed. Zerks and PMs are already unique and powerful enough. They are not problem units in the army. This is just adding rules for rules sake, and Chaos don't need that.

I think we should be looking at how books are done nowadays and trying to get Chaos to that sort of level.

Chad Warden wrote:Most of this seems is just wishlisting and sounds quite overpowered. Not to mention it's got no chance to fly under the current Jervis setup.

Things like Khornate Chainaxes and Plague Knives are not needed. Zerks and PMs are already unique and powerful enough. They are not problem units in the army. This is just adding rules for rules sake, and Chaos don't need that.

I think we should be looking at how books are done nowadays and trying to get Chaos to that sort of level.

CSM strongest stuff is always troops. Marines have stronger Elites, FA, HS and HQ.

We have troops, so we need good troops.
Thousand son are gak and need to be able to glance, Berzerkers need something to make them worth there points, Plague marines are fine, Noise marines dont make sense fluff-wise.

Zerkers: WS5, FC, +1A not enough?
Maybe...........Blood Rage? heh.

Maybe change the rule to be like a 'Waaghh', a single turn where they get fleet?

My 7 Cents.

Lord-Loss wrote:The people who are saying the current dex is fine obviously never have played CSM 4.0 and have not felt our pain.

Nurglitch wrote:Or they played the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine Codex and thought it sucked. You know, either/or.

Or maybe BOTH.

I played CSM under the 3E Rulebook and 3.0 Codex, and have felt at least as much "pain" as you have.

I wasn't impressed by the 3.5 pigeon holes.

I think the current Codex is fine.
____

For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
____

For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.
I'd simply like to see a Legions book,with wich players can build armies representing chaos legions as they should be represented.

FITZZ wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.

Well, how *else* would GW make a Legions army work?

If SM players need to buy Vulkan or whomever else to make their armies work, then you can bet your bottom dollar that CSM Legions will be forced to do the same.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:For the next CSM book, I'd like to see the big 4 characters removed to a Legions book.

Putting the "big 4 characters" in to a Legions book would be fine,so long as they don't become some sort of mandatory bring along for an army,I don't want to see a variation of the SM codex,in which I'd have to,for example,take Typhus to "unlock" Death Guard options.

Well, how *else* would GW make a Legions army work?

If SM players need to buy Vulkan or whomever else to make their armies work, then you can bet your bottom dollar that CSM Legions will be forced to do the same.

That's my point exactly,I think it's a bad idea all together,having to include special characters simply to "unlock" an army is silly IMO,it shouldn't be mandatory for SM armies,nor should it be mandatory for the (hypothetical) Legions codex.

And yet, GW's on an absolute tear with SCs right now.

With GW making redonkulously expensive metal minis that they need to sell, and a player base completely desperate for Legions, why wouldn't GW let the bean counters bend players over?

And how else would GW monetize Legions separate from non-Legions? What, GW's going to take Cult Marines out of CSM? (I guess they could...)

The pain of the wallet-reaming should be soothed by the pleasure of once again having one's very own Legion rules again.

And locking an army to a Special Character is about as distinctive of a rule as GW can imagine.