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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Arlington, Texas

Point one I'd like to make: what is this "responsibility" getting put back in my hands? Not to make an army broken? Not to make one that's unfluffy? What exactly is it? Now every gamer has a right to bitch about someone not being "responsible" and use Toolbox McGee as backup.

Point two: Being a total hypocrite, Dual Lash + Plagues is fluffy now. Gav said so.

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Using Inks and Washes






H.B.M.C. wrote:I will.


I have just read your post on his blog ... boy is it long. I thought it was well written except for a few elements that were a bit too much of a dig at him. Funny how GW designers forget history. When you read the all posts on the blog you would swear blind that there are two codices being reviewed not one. It is amazing how two sets of people can get such distinct strong feelings from one book.

2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Responsibility to show respect for your opponent perhaps?

Gav was very open in his reply I felt, and even states that opinion is one thing, but dressing up your opinion as fact is wrong and unfair to the author.

He explained the consideration behind the Codex, and then goes on to explain that he cannot guarantee things are still being thought in the same way, as he no longer works for the Studio.

But hey, if you don't agree with him, then he is clearly wrong, a complete berk and should be shot at your neasest convenience.

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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Responsibility to show respect for your opponent perhaps?

Gav was very open in his reply I felt, and even states that opinion is one thing, but dressing up your opinion as fact is wrong and unfair to the author.

He explained the consideration behind the Codex, and then goes on to explain that he cannot guarantee things are still being thought in the same way, as he no longer works for the Studio.

But hey, if you don't agree with him, then he is clearly wrong, a complete berk and should be shot at your neasest convenience.


Are you still trying to get hired on at GW?

And yes, it is only my opinion, by Gav's whole tone (I know, I know) in his 'defense' was not really the best, and certainly not one to put an end to anything, really...
   
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Alpharius wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Responsibility to show respect for your opponent perhaps?

Gav was very open in his reply I felt, and even states that opinion is one thing, but dressing up your opinion as fact is wrong and unfair to the author.

He explained the consideration behind the Codex, and then goes on to explain that he cannot guarantee things are still being thought in the same way, as he no longer works for the Studio.

But hey, if you don't agree with him, then he is clearly wrong, a complete berk and should be shot at your neasest convenience.


Are you still trying to get hired on at GW?

And yes, it is only my opinion, by Gav's whole tone (I know, I know) in his 'defense' was not really the best, and certainly not one to put an end to anything, really...


It isn't that he is wrong per se, is my issue. Fine, if he intended the codex to turn out the way it did - that is ok but the logic behind his defence actually makes very little logical sense.

2014 will be the year of zero GW purchases. Kneadite instead of GS, no paints or models. 2014 will be the year I finally make the move to military models and away from miniature games. 
   
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gorgon wrote: the GW swinging pendulum may be as much business-driven as vision-driven.

Only to the extent that the vision itself is business...

   
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Alpharius wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Responsibility to show respect for your opponent perhaps?

Gav was very open in his reply I felt, and even states that opinion is one thing, but dressing up your opinion as fact is wrong and unfair to the author.

He explained the consideration behind the Codex, and then goes on to explain that he cannot guarantee things are still being thought in the same way, as he no longer works for the Studio.

But hey, if you don't agree with him, then he is clearly wrong, a complete berk and should be shot at your neasest convenience.


Are you still trying to get hired on at GW?

And yes, it is only my opinion, by Gav's whole tone (I know, I know) in his 'defense' was not really the best, and certainly not one to put an end to anything, really...


Nah. I got hired last Saturday (I actually did. WOOT!).

But I feel sorry for Gav in this. As I said, he was fairly open, and one would assume honest, about the intentions behind the Chaos Marine Book. He even put it into context of a larger plan whereby Gods/Legions get their own specific books. His whole point that Interwebs Diatribe is rarely based on anything than someone's opinion, and he set out to clarify what he considers to be the facts behind it. He's not asking you to agree with him. He's not demanding you change your mind because of the work that went into it. He's just trying to better inform the consumer, and I tip my hat to him.

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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout





Raleigh, NC

starbomber109 wrote:
Ironhide wrote: Don't like it? Don't buy it.


And make GW even more money. I think that was the problem a lot of people had with this book. They had alread bought it, and now the stuff they bought over the past years is useless or not as useful as it used to be. Apparently though, CSM is not the only codex to inspire hatred in the player base, I saw one guy who quit playing Orks (and 40K) totally after the new ork codex came out.


How are you making them more money? You've got two options: Don't play CSM and play another army(if you've been in the hobby as long as me you've got to have several), or take a hiatus till the next CSM codex comes out. Hell, CSM will probably get another codex in a year or two. And if it follows suit with all the other new codexes, you'll be able to play your army like you used to as long as you take certain special characters.

Gavin may have been credited for the codex, but I still blame whoever was GW head of games development at that time. At the time I was considering getting the CSM codex, until I saw they took away the flavor and heard a new rulebook was coming out.
   
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Hey, I respect the guy that admits he's the person that puked all over the porch. I"m still mad because, you know, there's vomit all over my porch.
   
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Sheffield, UK

Polonius wrote:Hey, I respect the guy that admits he's the person that puked all over the porch. I"m still mad because, you know, there's vomit all over my porch.

It was nice of him to blame the porch too.

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Bleh, stupid thread. My brain is trying to figure out how I would 'fix' it. I can't make it stop

Someone make it stop!

AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Spelling? Well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the rules as written.
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Lake Stevens, WA

The one thing I'll say about Gav is this...

Waaaaaaaaaaaay back when the Wraithlord went from being a vehicle to being a huge critter with T8, there was a WD article in which Gav (as writer of said change) swore up and down that this wasn't overpowering in any way, being immune to St4 weapons was no big deal, yadda yadda yadda.

The delicious bit, though, was when he admitted, "Of course, I do use three wraithlords in my Eldar Army... but that's just because they suit my playing style..."

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CatPeeler wrote:The one thing I'll say about Gav is this...

Waaaaaaaaaaaay back when the Wraithlord went from being a vehicle to being a huge critter with T8, there was a WD article in which Gav (as writer of said change) swore up and down that this wasn't overpowering in any way, being immune to St4 weapons was no big deal, yadda yadda yadda.

The delicious bit, though, was when he admitted, "Of course, I do use three wraithlords in my Eldar Army... but that's just because they suit my playing style..."


Seriously?

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Piercing the heavens

Reminds me of Pete Haines making Iron Warriors one of the most powerful lists in CSM 3.5

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/11 22:02:34


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Oh cool so i can just show up to the next Games Day with my chaos army and have some imperial guard squads in there as well.


Guess this means my dream of playing Lost and Damned in hard boyz is cool too.


Alright!!!


Yeah this is his argument:


My rules are not poorly written this is a generalist list if you want to do something else make it up yourself.



Oh Okay I guess that means I dont need to buy the fething codex at all then. Cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont think they are going to post my comment but regardless

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/11 23:08:06


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Northern Ireland

willydstyle wrote:HBMC's comment has been posted, but not responded to, on the weblog.


Nor have any of my four comments, although I literally just got a raft of emails telling me there are new comments, will check in a sec.

JD21290 wrote:Please stay on topic frazzled
This was the new funniest post I've ever seen on Dakka, although it seems unfair that the reign of

avantgarde wrote:I got class in an hour but I'll give this a shot.

Horus and the Emperor were actually the same person that used an extremely advanced Dark Age teleporter to appear as two different people. Now this teleporter was so advanced that it projected two versions of the Emperor, one from the past and one from present time. Horus was the past Emperor. When Emperor killed Horus he actually killed his past self which is why he sits in on the Golden Throne, which is an anti-paradox machine which keeps the fabric of reality together by keeping the Emperor in existence. However as a side effect it caused the Space Marine legions to go insane and caused the Horus Heresy because of the temporal effects reverberating into the past. Whenever something changes in the universe like Sensei or Malal disappearing it's the anti-paradox machine rewriting history to keep the Emperor alive. Cypher bears the keycode to the machine and is trying to reach the Throne so he can unwrite himself completely from history because he is the Emperor from the future, the reason he seeks to do this is because he wants to prevent Abaddon, who is the Emperor from the near future, from destroying the universe. But he must do this before he is erased from history, as he is being right now.
was so short... :( Truly an awe-inspiring post.

As for your counter-'arguments' Digganob...

1) No, not really. In fact, it's a silly comparison, especially given many things with rules have no models (Deathstrike Missile Launcher, anyone?)

2) Because Cultists are crappy civilians. I'd sooner have generic CSM than T3 guys with no armour and a CCW, thanks. Cultists have to be made as good as Traitor Guard to be playable (-ish) and I contest that is less fluffy than simply not using them. Maybe this is, (shock) a different part of the battle raging for kilometres either side. Every time.
If you want to play purely for fluff reasons, do what Gav says and make it up. If you want to paly competitively, then you don't care about the pathetic excuse for a list LatD would be in 5th.

3) I can easily call my Kharn counts-as a Dark Apostle. He has 'The Blasphemous Rod' a counts-as Gorechild. His religious fervor and fury fuels his considerable combat abilities. He has a Plasma Pistol with which he killed 23 Imperial Fists at the Siege of the Emperor's Palace, before a Titan fell on him, and he was carried from the field.

The Chaos Codex is inferior to most of it's contemporaries, by a SLIGHT amount, and inferior to ones since - but so is everything else.

STOP ACTING SURPRISED WHEN NEW CODICES TRUMP OLD ONES!!!!! Please...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/12 00:20:13


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Georgia,just outside Atlanta

After reading and rereading Gav Thorpes responses,It IMO sounds like so much CYA (cover your a**),despite his opinions concerning codex CSM,no matter how eliquently put,still do not adress how he or GW justifies nuking so many Chaos players armies,which regaurdless of all the rebudles of counts as,make your own fluff,blah blah blah,is exactly what happened.
Mr. Thorpe may see the current codex as "less restrictive"...I however simply see it as less.


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No, not really. In fact, it's a silly comparison, especially given many things with rules have no models (Deathstrike Missile Launcher, anyone?)
As if making these models would be unwelcome or unnecessary.
If they make a mini for it, people will use it. Same with the rules - people got their Warsmith & Dark Apostle entries and they used them.

And regardless of how 'silly' my comparison was, my point still stands: fluff and rules are not mutually exclusive. Yes, yes really.

Because Cultists are crappy civilians. I'd sooner have generic CSM than T3 guys with no armour and a CCW, thanks. Cultists have to be made as good as Traitor Guard to be playable (-ish) and I contest that is less fluffy than simply not using them.
What nonsense. My 'crappy civilians' did just fine, thank you.

If you want to play purely for fluff reasons, do what Gav says and make it up.
After all, the Codex doesn't deliver.

I can easily call my Kharn counts-as a Dark Apostle.
You're missing the point. The only reason to resort to counts-as here is because they removed the option to have a Dark Apostle in the first place.
If they were still available, actual Dark Apostles would still be chosen over any counts-as unit - not that you couldn't stick to Kharn if you chose to.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But hey, if you don't agree with him, then he is clearly wrong, a complete berk and should be shot at your neasest convenience.


Leave the hyperbolic strawmen out of this Grotsnik... Jesus...




Not too many responses since mine it seems, although I will say that Ellesar's insistence that comparing one Codex to another is like comparing applies to oranges (not his exact works) is false.

As is his 'counts as' mantra.

Wouldn't need to 'counts as' if the options weren't taken away in the first place...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/12 02:13:02


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I don't think Mad Doc Grotsnik is raising a hyperbolic straw man so much as satirizing your colourful mode of expression.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I tend to base my responses on historical precedent, and in this instance no, I find the idea of Grotsnik attempting satire to be... unlikely.

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Deep in the Woods

smart_alex wrote:

Fluff and rules are two separate things. Fluff is in your head and imagination.

No person has been able to tell me how the new dex affects fluff.



I would have to say that My Tourny WordBearers Army will be disagreing with the secound part of your statment there.
Yes, Fluff and Rules are seprate things, except of course for the fact that if there was no Fluff, there would be no rules.
With the removal of the WordBearer Fluff, you can no longer feild a WordBearer Army. Ohh yes I can create a close proxy of the army that I spent quite a bit of time, effort and money to build, customize and paint, along with my own Fluff, I created to tell the story of my personal war-band. But it is no longer a WordBearer army, since in the world of GW Codexes, WordBearers no longer exist.

Spoiler is just my rant about WordBearer fluff loss if you dont actually care dont read it.
Spoiler:
Who cares if they are the reason Horus fell from grace and are pivitol players in the 40K backstory that they created.


The only reason any of us have chosen GW Brand Hobby Games is due to the Fluff. We like the back story they have given us. We like the ideas and reasons they laid down, so we would spend our hobby dollars on their products. If they had NO Fluff... I think we would all be playing Warmachine, or one of the many Napolionics(real world fluff is pretty cool), hell even GURPS has fluff. So you tell me if you really think Fluff dosent affect Dex's? If there was no Fluff, we would be playing grey army vs green army, todays grey army has claws and rending talons and green army has assault rifles and flamethrowers, tommorow it will be laserguns and tanks vs blade shooters and mental powers.

I have played a Chaos army since RT days. I have had a fair number of diffrent chaos armys. I liked the fluff/backstory for them. I still do. Yes in the last edition, we had some clunkyness and some options that were really downright silly and no-one ever took or used them(unless they were trying to be silly or ironic). We also had the options to create our very own/unique army that suited the indaviduals(wow I spelled that really wrong) taste and playstyle. These days, with this dex, we all basicly play the same army with diffrent quality paint jobs, at least that is how it feels to me.

HMBC is right, this Dex is Spiked Vanilla Marines, and we can have all the Vanilla we want.

Now I dont hate this new dex, I wish it had kept some of the better options from previous dex's. But most of all, I wish it had left me all the Fluff. I like the Fluff. The Fluff is what gets me really excited about creating a new army. One little fluffy things any off I go spending wads of cash on mini's, paints, tools(if I dont have it or need a replacement), bits, GS and all the other carp I need to make it.
I have a great Idea for a new army right now, the reason I am not in a frenzy of building and creation, is beacuse I am not inspired by the fluff right now and that sortof saddens me.






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The Word Bearers being pivotal to the corruption of Horus is a 3rd edition innovation. They were pretty irrelevant in the 1st and 2nd editions, except being mentioned in the 2nd edition Codex. If you really want flexibility and richness of background, the 3.5 edition Codex pales beside the 2nd.

I'd also object to the notion that Chaos Space Marines are "Spiky Marines". They're no more Spiky Marines than Necrons are Boring Marines.

I think that the differences between the armies are quite clean in 5th edition: the Space Marines are reliable and synergistic, while the Chaos Space Marines are high-risk and independent. While both armies depend on balancing three qualities (flexibility, synergy, and redundancy), they do so in different ways.

The lack of And They Shall Know No Fear makes Chaos Space Marines behave differently on the battlefield, and more like groups of individual rational agents rather than groups of fanatical battle-brothers. As such they need to be played aggressively, straight-forwardly, and using flexible independent units. They do better with redundancy across units rather than interior to them, and with synergy between models in units. They're not a "Multiple Small Unit" army.

Background-wise I think it would be something to distinguish the armies by calling the Space Marines what they are, and calling the Chaos Space Marines "Chaos Marines", to better align them with the notions of well-organized interdependency and selfish me-firsters.

When I got back into 40k I built a Marine army with the intention of it being compatible with both the Blood Angel and Chaos Space Marine books, and I was struck by the difference in tactics that had to be employed using that one army in both ways. That army has since split into Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines as 5th edition made the differences even more apparent, and I wanted to exploit what I perceived as the different strengths of each army.

In terms of catering to the fans they could also do with more special rules, simply because players like special rules, and with the new system of renaming universal special rules or groups of universal special rules, this would help the off-the-shelf people get some character into their Internet-cribbed lists.

But they work rather nicely. As I've mentioned I got back into 40k because this Codex (and Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Eldar, etc) showed that GW could strike a nice balance between the over-detailed 4th edition books and the under-detailed 3rd edition books. In fact, it is the differences between the two armies that makes me want to start new armies: Tau and more Chaos Space Marines, and I think it's going to be Chaos Space Marines when I find the time and the budget because I'm not satisfied with the Tau miniatures (don't like the Crisis suit, although my plan is to substitute converted XV-22s, and the Pathfinders need to be plastic), and the Daemon-Bomb army could be all-plastic.
   
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I know that this is probably really naive,

What would happen if the community was to petition for a Legion Codex, and I mean like a proper effort maybe even something as extreme as writing letters (like real ones with paper you know), and not just a list of internet pseudonyms.
Would GW respond? I mean even if they came right out and said no it's never going to happen wouldn't that be better? I would imagine in business if you have a large amount of customers actually telling you why they are upset or what they want it usually illicts some kind of response.

Sorry for going a little off topic, but has anything like this ever been done has GW ever responded?

It's interesting as an ex-WoW player there was always a certain level of communication between the game developers and the customer base. I personally feel that this made the game overall a better than just some developers sitting in a room by themselves.

PS: I also understand a lot of other armies are really hurting right now, and if it was to happen it would be a while
   
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SoCal, USA!

Nicorex wrote:The only reason any of us have chosen GW Brand Hobby Games is due to the Fluff.

I have played a Chaos army since RT

These days, with this dex, we all basicly play the same army with diffrent quality paint jobs, at least that is how it feels to me.

Um, some of us got in because of the minis.

Cool!

If you've played since RT, then wouldn't you have to agree that, up until the 3.5 Codex, Chaos armies were basically all the same except for the paint job?
____

Nurglitch wrote:I think that the differences between the armies are quite clean in 5th edition:

Of course, that is because GW finally got it into their heads that largely interchangeable MEQs have no personality of their own, so the various flavors need some distinct flavoring from one another. Hence, Mech Tac MEQs; Termie/Bike MEQs; JP MEQs; Hero MEQs; and Spiky MEQs
____

grimz wrote:What would happen if the community was to petition for a Legion Codex, and I mean like a proper effort maybe even something as extreme as writing letters (like real ones with paper you know), and not just a list of internet pseudonyms.

I wouldn't imagine it'd hurt, but I wouldn't count on it being any more effective than anything else.

That said, if people were to undertake a letter-writing campaign for Chaos Legions, one might expect a counter-campaign in favor of Codex homogenization, alongside competing campaigns for LatD, Ad Mech, Pan Fo, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/12 05:40:17


   
Made in au
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Somewhere on Terra

okay to make it clear there are only 3 problems with the csm codex 3 alright THREE!NOT A WHOLE BOOK ONLY THREE!!!
1)codex csm and codex chaos demons should be one codex...i mean the statement"that's too much stuff for one codex" is bs...look at the 150+ pages for the spezz mehriehnss
2)demon princes should have demon weapons from their patron gods in the same way as lords do, also theyre WAY too cheap at least 180pts for one imo
3)the chosen need the ability to choose their special skill not just the INFILTRATE one...thats just sad

THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEMS>>>you can still play whatever legion you like...it's not very restricting the only restricting codex out there is the NECRONS one...



...nothing else matters...


 
   
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Australia

grimz wrote:What would happen if the community was to petition for a Legion Codex


Jervis has said on more than one occasion that they are bringing out one or more Codices later in fifth edition to cover the Legions. No need to petition, just wait (and wait, and wait). Then we will have even more needless MEQ books, where a single, combined book was clearly insufficient!

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

the_emperors_renegade wrote:THERE ARE NO MORE PROBLEMS


*facepalm*

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Poor little CSM--dual lash not cheesy enough for ya?

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olympia wrote:Poor little CSM--dual lash not cheesy enough for ya?


*double facepalm*

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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