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*sigh* Double post fail, sorry everyone

1hadhq we can't keep looking at what each race thinks about what they do as no one is going to do what they think isn't a reasonable action. Even the most evil people believe what they are doing is right even if it's just for their own benefit. The only way we can definately say one army is more evil that another is by judging their actions against our morals.

All I am pointing out is that people aren't comparing each group fairly.

Too bad Atria IV was a bastion of chaos... So its not conquering a "free" world of a "free" race, but a attack at the archenemy.

So the imperium can attack a planet that attacks them and replace chaos rule with better ruling (and kill anyone who disagrees) but Tau are doing exactly the same. Since the beginning of their species the imperium has tried to exterminate them. By taking imperial planets they improve the lives for citizens who accept it and improve the quality of life. The imperium is as dangerous to the Tau as chaos is to the imperium, if not more dangerous.

Eldar? the same that moved home to their craftworlds instead of planetbound life?

At the time humans spread across the galaxy the eldar owned most of the planets. They only gave up life on planets to save their species.

Again, if orks or their spores make a world an ork planet, the whole galaxy belongs to them in this POV.
Happy orks....

I don't agree that orks own most of the galaxy, but the point I mentioned is very similar to you saying that humans did.

Tau know nothing about chaos or nids or C'tan as their last bits of background in 5th ed codizes shows.

I don't know where you are getting this from but it's entirely false. They have fought Chaos, Nids and crons before. With the most open view of science they will have a great deal of knoledge on the tyranids. In battle they have some of the best antityranid tactics (rapidly changing battle styles) which if copied by the imperium would serious damage the tyranids.

They know as much about necrons as the imperium do. The imperium have very little idea what the C'tan are they did not exist when the C'tan were active. All they know is taken from information stolen from the eldar. The imperium would never trust this so the little they do know has little affect on them.

I am pretty sure fighting Daemons and CSM and watching the Eldar psychic powers would give you a good idea of what chaos can do. With all the chaos cults floating around and openly chaos planets it isn't hard to investigate what chaos is and what it is. Sure they can't use psychic powers but that isn't all chaos is.

Its interesting when you give the IoM the advantage of outnumbering their fragmented foes, because its the opposite.
The IoM is the one with overstretched lines and small empires like Tau benefit from this.

Whether we see this on the tabletop or not most of the imperiums battles have been in the past and still are against orks or chaos cults. Most of which are badly supplied and with little coordination. Tau spend most of their time fighting imperial forces which are well supplied and work together. Tau have a smaller area to protect but have far less resources.

The point still is, Imperia will claim the right to rule by power. Examples are there and I doubt you need me to research them for you.

What they claim is irrelevant, whether they can take it or not. We are discussing who is right and power does not equal right.

So its nonsense if its Imperial? Wasn't aware how biased our Mod is

Almost all imperial information is biased in someway. All the armies are biased but as we get most stories from imperial POV so we only see how the imperium potrays it. GW have even said that a lot of what happens is properganda but people insist it is 100% true.

1hadhq wrote:Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.

The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.

The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).

BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.

4M2A wrote:1hadhq we can't keep looking at what each race thinks about what they do as no one is going to do what they think isn't a reasonable action. Even the most evil people believe what they are doing is right even if it's just for their own benefit. The only way we can definately say one army is more evil that another is by judging their actions against our morals.

All I am pointing out is that people aren't comparing each group fairly.

How are they compared fairly?
From their own POV?

And our morals aren't the same. You assume they are, but this little planet has enough diversity to allow for morals you would not agree with, but these were actual once or are still in use. There are humans accepting a law from a central authority and there are humans accepting only the laws of their own local authorities. Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.
- slavery was legal once in the US.
- A religious crusade was considered "good" a few centurys ago.
- plunder and pillage was common income of the mercenary armies and part of their contracts.
Seeing these changes over time, how do you judge in a sf setup of 40.000 years?
Does only M41 count? or M30 ?
Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?

4M2A wrote:So the imperium can attack a planet that attacks them and replace chaos rule with better ruling (and kill anyone who disagrees) but Tau are doing exactly the same. Since the beginning of their species the imperium has tried to exterminate them. By taking imperial planets they improve the lives for citizens who accept it and improve the quality of life. The imperium is as dangerous to the Tau as chaos is to the imperium, if not more dangerous.

The taint of chaos has to be dealt with, maybe "ruinous powers" should hint on ruin?
No, the Tau do not improve the lives of anyone except their own.
Comparing the IoM to chaos is silly. Chaos is somehow an "inner" enemy, the IoM isn't ruining the greatar good with corruption.
The IoM did react to the expansion of Tau, chaos did react to its possible downfall.
So lets see. Chaos wants mankind as slaves and "food", the IoM has no interest in living Tau.
IoM=ressource to chaos
Tau=annoying but unimportant
Sounds not like the Tau are in danger at the same level as the IoM is.

4M2A wrote:At the time humans spread across the galaxy the eldar owned most of the planets. They only gave up life on planets to save their species.

And the IoM reconquered the lost worlds of the first colonization of the stars. So pre age of strife worlds could be human worlds,and not eldar worlds. Maybe consider the home of the eldar, now eye of terror, as lost to them and the rule of the eldar of the galaxy
wasn't that complete as you make it.

4M2A wrote:I don't know where you are getting this from but it's entirely false. They have fought Chaos, Nids and crons before. With the most open view of science they will have a great deal of knoledge on the tyranids. In battle they have some of the best antityranid tactics (rapidly changing battle styles) which if copied by the imperium would serious damage the tyranids.

They know as much about necrons as the imperium do. The imperium have very little idea what the C'tan are they did not exist when the C'tan were active. All they know is taken from information stolen from the eldar. The imperium would never trust this so the little they do know has little affect on them.

I am pretty sure fighting Daemons and CSM and watching the Eldar psychic powers would give you a good idea of what chaos can do. With all the chaos cults floating around and openly chaos planets it isn't hard to investigate what chaos is and what it is. Sure they can't use psychic powers but that isn't all chaos is.

Its not false. Its part of the background of new codices, like SM, IG , SW , nids, BA,.. could name a few but IIRc the Tau didn't fight nids or necrons in their own codices so we may need to look at someone elses. Would like to quote , but sadly I dont have them all
in english, so you may get disappointed with my quotes. Believe me or not, Tau get mentioned in codices of other races.
Tau do not so well against some opponents, GW used other armies to save them or spare them to get killed later.

Seriously. The IoM protects little empires with its pure mass and annihilates most greater dangers like nid fleets and waaghs.
To say the IoM knows as much as tau do is overestimating the Tau's knowledge x100.
The IoM was able to dig out and identify necrons, they do not attempt to meet and greet like Tau do ( and get desintegrated with gauss rifles as answer ) and they even have a rumored Ctan at home.

-SW, 996.M41 kvariam alpha
-IG 790.M41 Nimbosa
-IG 5985999.M41 Cytheria
-IG 979.M41 damocles

4M2A wrote:What they claim is irrelevant, whether they can take it or not. We are discussing who is right and power does not equal right.

Guns equal power and big guns make more right than small ones.

4M2A wrote:Almost all imperial information is biased in someway. All the armies are biased but as we get most stories from imperial POV so we only see how the imperium potrays it. GW have even said that a lot of what happens is properganda but people insist it is 100% true.

So we discard everything as it is imperial propaganda? Funny, now without anything to base a debate on, how do we run these threads
yet? One person decides if its un-imperial enough or doesnt contradict his personal take on it?
Sorry, its all or nothing.
And the fact of imperial POV doesn't makes it wrong.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:
The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.

Heard about real world vs SF universe?
NO?

Kroothawk wrote:
The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).

BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.

Where do you get this questionable impression from?
I do appreciate if one supports his favoured faction, but your going to far.

Farsight has left on its own, as hes not blind as the others. Brightsword masscred humans, and may suffered a warning but that all.
You can go on with this mutual protection thing, but still worlds leaving the IoM tend to be inhabitable soon. Freedom of death....

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.

The Imperium is inspired by the regimes of Hitler and Stalin. Hitler and Stalin conquered and oppressed many countries, including their own countries. Let me assure you that many many people were glad, when the Allies "conquered someone else's homes" and freed them from oppression.

I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.

The Great Crusade was a huge war to conquer and rule as many planets as they could get. The Imperium is a very oppressive regime. Official background (including the novel "For the Emperor" and "IA3:Taros Campaign") show many human planets that try to escape that oppression and occupation by joining the Tau Empire that stands for freedom, trade and mutual protection, as the Tau are not interested in subjugating other races (even if they wanted, they couldn't due to low numbers).

1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.

2) After the Horus Heresy (an serious betrayal/attack by Chaos) things went downhill really fast for the Imperium. With the Emperor incapacitated or whatever you'd like to call it things went astray. Some places got it right, like Ultramar, and became perfect examples of a 'good sector'. But elsewhere the Imperium really had to struggle just to keep a hold on the vast gain that they had made, this included Xenophobic progroms and the like which all around made these worlds a rather gakky place to live. Small wonder that worlds on the edge seek to escape it, but the Imperium can't afford it.

BTW if a Tau general makes the mistake to actually massacre cruel and unforgiving enemies like the Orks (Farsight, Brightsword), he is either sacked immediately or totally expelled from the Tau Empire. Unfortunately this fact is too well known to be ignored by Tau haters.

Seriously, this is not at all how it happened and is ridiculous fanwank to suggest as much. After the massacre of the orks Farsight was sent of missions that distanced himself from the central Tau worlds. The Tau Empire wasn't too keen to get rid of him. It was only after the accompaning Ethereal died during a mission on some sort of ghost planet that Farsight ceased communications with the Tau Empire. After a while reports trickle back on the Farsight Enclaves. It does not seem that Farsight was exiled, but left on his own accord.

No-one cares what happens to Orks, they are not intelligent, they are only fungus and they are all over the place.

It is true that Tau generals have been disciplined for use of excessive force against Imperial armies. According to the codex, anyway.

But Farsight, possibly the (second) greatest Tau general ever to live, wasn't exiled for brutality against the orks. There is little to no evidence to support that.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.

1.) The main inspiration for the Imperium are Hitler, Stalin and the Inquisition. The Emperor wasn't elected, Inquisition and Commissars (word and function directly taken from Red army) keep a tight reign over army resp. the population.
2.) When I talked about allies, I meant the Western Allies, as half the conquests by Stalin were done during the famous Hitler/Stalin pact. Stalin did indeed oppress his own country (millions ! of dead) and the ones he conquered and regrouped either as the Soviet Union or the Red Block. Google the history of the Baltics, the Hungary and GDR uprisings, the German Wall etc. Whatever Stalin has done, nobody questions AFAIK that he was a dictator.
3.) Same with Hitler. In one election he was elected Chancler within a coalition, his party never won the majority of all votes in free elections BTW. But once elected, he transformed the shaky democracy into a pure dictatorship (1933, "Machtergreifung").
4.) The ally remark was meant to show, that sometimes, reconquering occupied countries is welcome by the population. And several Imperial planets are known to defect the Imperium voluntarily to get rid of the oppression.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.

2) After the Horus Heresy (an serious betrayal/attack by Chaos) things went downhill really fast for the Imperium. With the Emperor incapacitated or whatever you'd like to call it things went astray. Some places got it right, like Ultramar, and became perfect examples of a 'good sector'. But elsewhere the Imperium really had to struggle just to keep a hold on the vast gain that they had made, this included Xenophobic progroms and the like which all around made these worlds a rather gakky place to live. Small wonder that worlds on the edge seek to escape it, but the Imperium can't afford it.

Just read the first Horus Heresy novels about the Crusade. It was not exactly a happy family reunion.

Kroothawk wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm not quite understanding the reference to Stalin there. Are you saying that Stalin/Hitler represent the Imperium, while the Tau represent the Allies? If so then I'm going to have to call bullgak on your history skills. Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically). Staling himself didn't really conquer and oppress many countires before or after WWII. Just his own. And even then it is argueable that he turned the backwater laughing stock that was called Russia into a world power all by itself. The history surrounding him and his methods really is quite interesting.

1.) The main inspiration for the Imperium are Hitler, Stalin and the Inquisition. The Emperor wasn't elected, Inquisition and Commissars (word and function directly taken from Red army) keep a tight reign over army resp. the population.
2.) When I talked about allies, I meant the Western Allies, as half the conquests by Stalin were done during the famous Hitler/Stalin pact. Stalin did indeed oppress his own country (millions ! of dead) and the ones he conquered and regrouped either as the Soviet Union or the Red Block. Google the history of the Baltics, the Hungary and GDR uprisings, the German Wall etc. Whatever Stalin has done, nobody questions AFAIK that he was a dictator.
3.) Same with Hitler. In one election he was elected Chancler within a coalition, his party never won the majority of all votes in free elections BTW. But once elected, he transformed the shaky democracy into a pure dictatorship (1933, "Machtergreifung").
4.) The ally remark was meant to show, that sometimes, reconquering occupied countries is welcome by the population. And several Imperial planets are known to defect the Imperium voluntarily to get rid of the oppression.

1) Yes, and?

2) You compared the Tau to the allies. Not exactly accurate. BTW, if calling the Eastern Block a Soviet 'conquest' is correct, then the same must be said of the western countries under NATO. Issue's regarding the Cold War are not black and white, and neither is anything regarding the Tau v Imperium. That said, it's ridiculous to try and compare the two scenarios.

3) I never said Hitler didn't create a dictatorship. Where are you going with this? I am honestly confused.

4) Soviet people initially welcomed Nazi liberators on the Russian front, before the SS went around burning villages down. They then celebrated the return of their Soviets at the end of the war. Some world welcome Tau intervention, others don't. Thing change. People are fickle.

Just read the first Horus Heresy novels about the Crusade. It was not exactly a happy family reunion.

No thanks. I'd rather choke on a book written by C.S. Goto. (I personally hate the Horus Heresy books as they destroy much of the mystery surrounding the Horus Heresy in regards to 40k fluff. That and the whole Fulgrim killing the Avatar thing. The articles on it by White Dwarf were always much cooler.) Did you really think the Great Crusade was going to be won by this chick?


The Emperor saw it wise to take a more direct approach.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Stalin was an Ally himself, and was instrumental in ending Hitlers democratic regime (Hitler was elected democratically).

Emperors Faithful wrote:3) I never said Hitler didn't create a dictatorship. Where are you going with this? I am honestly confused.

Hitler ended Hitler's pseudo-democratic regime (which lasted a few days). Stalin helped ending Hitler's dictatorial regime.

At least we agree on the quality of Goto's books.
And good news for you: The author who let Fulgrim choke a non-breathing Avatar to death, now wrote a Tau/Kroot bashing Ultramarine novel ("Courage and Honour"), contradicting all Tau and Kroot background, even his own background text on Kroot!
I sadly have to read it soon, to know where the next wave of Tau/Kroot hate comes from

BTW would you think that this half-naked unarmoured man could topple an Empire? Well he did!

How are they compared fairly?
From their own POV?

And our morals aren't the same. You assume they are, but this little planet has enough diversity to allow for morals you would not agree with, but these were actual once or are still in use. There are humans accepting a law from a central authority and there are humans accepting only the laws of their own local authorities. Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.
- slavery was legal once in the US.
- A religious crusade was considered "good" a few centurys ago.
- plunder and pillage was common income of the mercenary armies and part of their contracts.
Seeing these changes over time, how do you judge in a sf setup of 40.000 years?
Does only M41 count? or M30 ?
Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?

My suggestion about comparing them by our morals was a way of viewing them fairly. Many of your points about th imperium are from a current view on what is right, yet you say this is wrong. Comparing them by the morals used in 40k doesn't work because who evers morals we use are always going to be right. The only way to get an unbiased decicisin is to use outside morals.

Now tell me, will you claim that those sharing your view on morals are correct or do you accept your morals as actual moral of your location, but maybe not used before or afterwards.

I strongly agree with the idea of this statement but it doesn't work in reality. From what you said slavery was right in the past but wrong now. To judge any action we must find a set of what we consider is right. This is very similar to todays morals. If we could judge actions by any ages morals, we could justify anything which is wrong.

Does only M41 count? or M30 ?

Why is it when using 40k morals you only look at the imperiums morals? I could justify everything the Tau do by using their morals but I don't. I know they could do it better, but their current method is the better than the other races.

Our Good/evil is ours and ours alone. Good /evil in 40k needs a 40k definition. GW didn't go there so why should we?

Judging by the title of this thread it's about finding out who is believed to be the most good force. That means we do have to go their. Plus GW have talked about good and bad in the 40k universe. They have openly said Tau are meant to be the "good" race.

The taint of chaos has to be dealt with, maybe "ruinous powers" should hint on ruin?
No, the Tau do not improve the lives of anyone except their own.
Comparing the IoM to chaos is silly. Chaos is somehow an "inner" enemy, the IoM isn't ruining the greatar good with corruption.
The IoM did react to the expansion of Tau, chaos did react to its possible downfall.
So lets see. Chaos wants mankind as slaves and "food", the IoM has no interest in living Tau.
IoM=ressource to chaos
Tau=annoying but unimportant
Sounds not like the Tau are in danger at the same level as the IoM is.

I am not saying chaos is a bigger threat to tau. I am saying that the imperium is as bigger threat to Tau, than chaos is to the imperium. Chaos wants to corrupt the human race, but not destroy it. The imperium wants to destroy the tau empire, and exterminate all tau. Being called ruinous powers doesn't make any difference. Somethings name realy has no effect on how good or bad it is. No the imperium isn't ruining the greater good with corruption, instead it attacking it purely because of different beliefs.
Chaos just wants humans to worship it, the imperium want to kill the entire tau species. To me extinction is worse than having to worship something.

And the IoM reconquered the lost worlds of the first colonization of the stars. So pre age of strife worlds could be human worlds,and not eldar worlds. Maybe consider the home of the eldar, now eye of terror, as lost to them and the rule of the eldar of the galaxy
wasn't that complete as you make it.

When the humans spread across the galaxy the eldar were the dominant species and the fall hadn't occured yet. They controlled most of the galaxy and the eye of terror didn't even exist yet. The EoT was only created at the same time the Emperor began the crusades.

Its not false. Its part of the background of new codices, like SM, IG , SW , nids, BA,.. could name a few but IIRc the Tau didn't fight nids or necrons in their own codices so we may need to look at someone elses. Would like to quote , but sadly I dont have them all
in english, so you may get disappointed with my quotes. Believe me or not, Tau get mentioned in codices of other races.
Tau do not so well against some opponents, GW used other armies to save them or spare them to get killed later.

Tau fight nids- Codex: Tyranids
Tau discover necrons- Codex: Blood angels

I don't know of any specific quotes of Tau having contact with CSM or daemons, but it is very unlikely they haven't fought them. There was at one point a Tau investigation into the warp and chaos and at the end the Ethereals decided it was not worth continuing. I don't know the soure but this shows tehy do know what it is. How much detail is unknown but they do know chaos is bad.

Seriously. The IoM protects little empires with its pure mass and annihilates most greater dangers like nid fleets and waaghs.
To say the IoM knows as much as tau do is overestimating the Tau's knowledge x100.
The IoM was able to dig out and identify necrons, they do not attempt to meet and greet like Tau do ( and get desintegrated with gauss rifles as answer ) and they even have a rumored Ctan at home.

Just by looking at the way the Tau view science any knowlege about other races is actually going to be of some use to the Tau, whereas the imperium don't use it much. It takes the imperium hundreds of years to change anything, whereas the Tau actually adapt. They understand what they know whereas the imperium just know it. You can see from the way the imperium fight tyranids. They try to use wars of attrition against the second largest force in the galaxy, and one that recovers all loses from both sides. That doesn't seem like a good use of knowlege to me.

Guns equal power and big guns make more right than small ones.

Yes guns equal power but power does not equal right. There are many cases in history when bad organisations have had a lot of power. That doesn't make them any less evil.

So we discard everything as it is imperial propaganda? Funny, now without anything to base a debate on, how do we run these threads
yet? One person decides if its un-imperial enough or doesnt contradict his personal take on it?
Sorry, its all or nothing.
And the fact of imperial POV doesn't makes it wrong.

Only suggesting we look at how reliable sources are and take them with a pinch of salt. Funny how everyone claims Tau are so biased and ignore our fluff when the imperium is equally if not more biased yet people forget that.

You can go on with this mutual protection thing, but still worlds leaving the IoM tend to be inhabitable soon. Freedom of death....

No a lot of human worlds have become part of the Tau empire and have had no problems. They often have a better standard of life. Aside from orks there aren't quotes of Tau massacaring any populations, without good reason (they have killed human opulations but only as the human citizens have attacked Tau citizens).

1) The Great Crusade was a 'reclamation' to free and unite humanity (which had been scattered across the stars) into a single working empire. This included freeing human races from manipulaive masters similar to Tau and other coalitions. Tomb Worlds and Eldar Maiden worlds were colonised becuase humanity honestly didn't know about the nature of these planets or thier importance to other races. It can hardly be called an unprovoked attack.

Reclamation sounds nice until you find out they killed any humans who disagreeded with them. Many places were much better off before the imperium found them. If the imperium only protected planet who needed it they would be the good guys, but instead they claim ownership of all humans. I am certain the Interex were far better of with the imperium but if the imoperium couldn't have them they changed from being all nice and friendly to wiping them out.

4M2A wrote:
My suggestion about comparing them by our morals was a way of viewing them fairly. Many of your points about th imperium are from a current view on what is right, yet you say this is wrong. Comparing them by the morals used in 40k doesn't work because who evers morals we use are always going to be right. The only way to get an unbiased decicisin is to use outside morals.

Ok lets go with that.

4M2A wrote:I strongly agree with the idea of this statement but it doesn't work in reality. From what you said slavery was right in the past but wrong now. To judge any action we must find a set of what we consider is right. This is very similar to todays morals. If we could judge actions by any ages morals, we could justify anything which is wrong.

Are you sure your morals and mine are the same?
If not, we may sort those races differently....

So maybe assume we both are part of a western civilization have enough in common to run on the same Morals.

Yes, we can put these races into drawers, like good - evil - neutral?. Now we have them sorted, do you think the ally chart of campaigns hints on who is who?

4M2A wrote:Why is it when using 40k morals you only look at the imperiums morals? I could justify everything the Tau do by using their morals but I don't. I know they could do it better, but their current method is the better than the other races.

...because I am a stubborn Imperialist? And a human so I may understand the motives of them better then alienated motives of
fictional xenos. So why do you know they could do it better?

4M2A wrote:Judging by the title of this thread it's about finding out who is believed to be the most good force. That means we do have to go their. Plus GW have talked about good and bad in the 40k universe. They have openly said Tau are meant to be the "good" race.

Yes, Tau do well in a race, not sure if they're good at it but still not bad.
See what I did there? Now its Good/bad .....
Back to Good vs evil.
I think the point of tabletop wargames less thriving on good vs evil than RPG's isn't that black&white isn't there, its more like shades of grey as the point in wargames as alliances may change. I know thats against jervis beloved cinematics and I will suffer from this...

IMHO, the title is incorrect as it pretends to have the answer. And I strongly doubt the "only good = greater good" as this would
make almost everyone evil and the chances of survival of a minor 'good' race against the whole galaxy are nil.
Thats why I favor the poll, "least evil" instead of "only good" as this allows variety and isn't so deadly set on black&white.

4M2A wrote:
I am not saying chaos is a bigger threat to tau. I am saying that the imperium is as bigger threat to Tau, than chaos is to the imperium. Chaos wants to corrupt the human race, but not destroy it. The imperium wants to destroy the tau empire, and exterminate all tau. Being called ruinous powers doesn't make any difference. Somethings name realy has no effect on how good or bad it is. No the imperium isn't ruining the greater good with corruption, instead it attacking it purely because of different beliefs.
Chaos just wants humans to worship it, the imperium want to kill the entire tau species. To me extinction is worse than having to worship something.

Tau suffered from Fabius biles attention and were happy to die. Maybe a fast death is prefferable to eternal torture...

Is it more evil to give false hope and still aim just for your personal entertainment and treat the victim as bad as possible without killing it? or is it more evil to be honest and just kill the victim?

Easy to point a finger at .....

4M2A wrote:
Tau fight nids- Codex: Tyranids
Tau discover necrons- Codex: Blood angels

I don't know of any specific quotes of Tau having contact with CSM or daemons, but it is very unlikely they haven't fought them. There was at one point a Tau investigation into the warp and chaos and at the end the Ethereals decided it was not worth continuing. I don't know the source but this shows they do know what it is. How much detail is unknown but they do know chaos is bad.

IIRC, there is only 1 fight against chaos.
And as the etherals discontinued investigation, they still don't know. They assume its not that threathening to them, but this must not be true for any of their allies as well.
To know it is bad, and to know it can change worlds from inhabitable to hell-holes in the warp...

4M2A wrote:Just by looking at the way the Tau view science any knowlege about other races is actually going to be of some use to the Tau, whereas the imperium don't use it much. It takes the imperium hundreds of years to change anything, whereas the Tau actually adapt. They understand what they know whereas the imperium just know it. You can see from the way the imperium fight tyranids. They try to use wars of attrition against the second largest force in the galaxy, and one that recovers all loses from both sides. That doesn't seem like a good use of knowlege to me.

The IoM thrives on faith, not knowledge.
Mankind believed in tech and got the age of strife as reward.

Rememeber Tau couldn't adapt faster than nids. Focus on tech isn't pure win.
Its nice for the models, but GW cannot afford to have Tau as supertech and the rest as stoneage. There will be restrictions we don't now of yet.

The IoM can afford daily losses, which may annihilate whole xeno empires in hours. Now imagine the IoM with research and a
open minded approach to tech....scary isn't it? As, you get opponents with high-tech, outnumbering you thousandfold.

4M2A wrote:Yes guns equal power but power does not equal right. There are many cases in history when bad organisations have had a lot of power. That doesn't make them any less evil.

Ok

4M2A wrote:Only suggesting we look at how reliable sources are and take them with a pinch of salt. Funny how everyone claims Tau are so biased and ignore our fluff when the imperium is equally if not more biased yet people forget that.

No, they know the imperium is always right and never runs out of salt.
I did not ignore the fluff, if its available and quoted.
But I do apply more weight to a codex than some notes, so what we may buy at the end of the day is what counts.
Plus, it works both ways, discard fluff if its biased towards the IoM and I shall claim the fluff biased against the IoM as equal invalid.

4M2A wrote:No a lot of human worlds have become part of the Tau empire and have had no problems. They often have a better standard of life. Aside from orks there aren't quotes of Tau massacaring any populations, without good reason (they have killed human opulations but only as the human citizens have attacked Tau citizens).

With good reason were back to justifing and thus were back to imperial reason is as good for imperial use as Tau reason is for Tau use.

I for one wouldn't judge the Tau as Good until their etherals "puppetmasters" and motives are revealed.

Wait, can someone explain the War of the Dakka in the Ork codex then? When does that happen? Farsight lost the fight they talked about there, so I wondered when he actually won.

Of course it could be fluff bias, where the winner depends on the codex you read it in.

Wait, can someone explain the War of the Dakka in the Ork codex then? When does that happen? Farsight lost the fight they talked about there, so I wondered when he actually won.

Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.

because I am a stubborn Imperialist? And a human so I may understand the motives of them better then alienated motives of fictional xenos. So why do you know they could do it better?

Supprisingly I had guessed that They are also a fiction human organisation so I don't think they are entirely that easy to connect with. Personaly from what I can see from the official and confirmed as well as Gw comments on the subject of Tau, I would prefer to live in the Tau empire than the imperium. The idea of a restricting government which has no intrest in any individual and that supresses anything threatening by destroying everything in the area regardless of casulties is more alien to me that the Tau empires view. Attempting to unite the galaxy with minimum casulties and improving the lives of your people is much closer to what I can understand.

Rememeber Tau couldn't adapt faster than nids. Focus on tech isn't pure win.
Its nice for the models, but GW cannot afford to have Tau as supertech and the rest as stoneage. There will be restrictions we don't now of yet.

Actually their ability to adapt worked better than most anti tyranid tactics, they failed because they just couldn't commit a large enought force to the fight. If the imperium had used the same tactic the nids would be running.

The IoM can afford daily losses, which may annihilate whole xeno empires in hours. Now imagine the IoM with research and a
open minded approach to tech....scary isn't it? As, you get opponents with high-tech, outnumbering you thousandfold.

We are looking at this purely from a fluff perspective. This is exactly what the imperium wants, but their traditions and faith prevent them from flourishing, something the Tau suffer from. If the imperium copied the Tau they would be able to defeat a lot of the armies in a very short period of time.

With good reason were back to justifing and thus were back to imperial reason is as good for imperial use as Tau reason is for Tau use.

I don't get what your saying here. People join the greater good by choice but many only join the imprium because it's that or die.

I for one wouldn't judge the Tau as Good until their etherals "puppetmasters" and motives are revealed.

The ethereals don't really control the Tau that much. They have the ability to but most of the time it isn't needed. The Tau have seen what happens when their species doesn't cooperate and are terrified of returning to that. The Greater good is quite transparent, they want to reduce suffering. The reason they are willing to fight for it is due to aiming for the long run rather than expecting it to work straight away. If the Ethereals wanted to trick them they wouldn't take in other races. Every time a race joins the greater good, the ethereasl become less in control as they can only control tau, so more of the empire become uncontrollable.

If you hate the ethereals what do you think about farsight? He has an empire fighting for the greater good but without ethereals.

Tau suffered from Fabius biles attention and were happy to die. Maybe a fast death is prefferable to eternal torture...

Is it more evil to give false hope and still aim just for your personal entertainment and treat the victim as bad as possible without killing it? or is it more evil to be honest and just kill the victim?

Easy to point a finger at .....

True but it is least evil to try and work together first. The chaos are a threat to the IoM and the IoM is a threat to the greater good. If the IoM can attack chaos the Tau can attack the IoM.

And as the etherals discontinued investigation, they still don't know. They assume its not that threathening to them, but this must not be true for any of their allies as well.

I got the impression they learned a lot from that investigation and ended as they knew the warp is something you want to leave alone.

I think the point of tabletop wargames less thriving on good vs evil than RPG's isn't that black&white isn't there, its more like shades of grey as the point in wargames as alliances may change. I know thats against jervis beloved cinematics and I will suffer from this...

This is true and the imperium is obviously one of the lighter shades of grey but when the people who designed Tau said they are meant to be the most good force, I think they are right. Of all people the designers know most about 40k.

IMHO, the title is incorrect as it pretends to have the answer. And I strongly doubt the "only good = greater good" as this would make almost everyone evil and the chances of survival of a minor 'good' race against the whole galaxy are nil.

I think that the title is only there as a suggestion and to attract people. A good race could easily survive in 40k as the evil forces are no united so just as likely to destroy each other as help them.

@FocusedFire

I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.

Kroothawk wrote:
Hitler ended Hitler's pseudo-democratic regime (which lasted a few days). Stalin helped ending Hitler's dictatorial regime.

This is basic history. And has nothing to do with the Tau or Imperium. Please stop trying to make this comparison.

BTW would you think that this half-naked unarmoured man could topple an Empire? Well he did!

Actually, it was the culmination of two World Wars that left Britain too weak to keep a strong hold on the Indian Mainland. Ghandi's involvement is...well he spent a lot of time in prison and not eating. He was a wonderful and idealistic, moral person, but saying he toppled an empire is just dumb.

4M2A wrote:
Reclamation sounds nice until you find out they killed any humans who disagreeded with them. Many places were much better off before the imperium found them. If the imperium only protected planet who needed it they would be the good guys, but instead they claim ownership of all humans. I am certain the Interex were far better of with the imperium but if the imoperium couldn't have them they changed from being all nice and friendly to wiping them out.

Oh. So just like the Tau then?

sigh, another thread ruined by Hitler. Damn you Hitler!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@FocusedFire

I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.

Since the IoM will not make peace with the Tau, or agree a prisoner exchange, how can the Tau release their POWs? Nor are they responsible for the way the IoM rectuirs its troops.

I don't know about the hard labour, etc. I was under the impression that mining is mainly done by drones and machinery.

Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.

B-but, that's heresy isn't it?

It was probably heresy to get captured in the first place.

Neither orks nor nids are capable of being 'evil' since they don't have a morality.

EF- the difference is the Tau don't take away everything you have when you join the empire. If you have good technology and a well run society it doesn't really change. The kroot are part of the greater good and their society hasn't changed since they joined. The Tau may think they are savage but they know it's not their business to tell the kroot how to live.

They both make you comply with their rules but the Tau rules are a lot less restricting, whereas the imperium attempts to rule you.

Tau of course.

Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.

Well I checked again.

It says the Orks used a feint retreat, and Farsight being so reckless chased them, and was hit with a pincer attack (so the Orks won that fight I guess).

That was when Farsight was still the Tau commender, not a renegade IIRC. But it says the Orks and Tau are locked in a war of attrition that the Orks can afford and the Tau cannot. And that Waaagh! is still going on the map, so somebodies wrong.

Or maybe thats a different battle completely.

4M2A wrote:
Overall farsight won. I am not sure about exactly how it ended but the orks suffered huge casulties from his attacks.

The orks in the "war of the dakka" conquered 3 Sept worlds and were still fighting...and you know how a challenge attracts orks.

4M2A wrote: Personaly from what I can see from the official and confirmed as well as Gw comments on the subject of Tau, I would prefer to live in the Tau empire than the imperium. The idea of a restricting government which has no interest in any individual and that supresses anything threatening by destroying everything in the area regardless of casulties is more alien to me that the Tau empires view. Attempting to unite the galaxy with minimum casulties and improving the lives of your people is much closer to what I can understand.

I disagree that their motives are known and I would not like to support a cause to good to be true.
To unite the galaxy under their ideology isn't sitting well with me, as unknown powers pull the strings and I have seen to often
the most vocal "good" guys beeing the opposite. A mask of beauty to hide the truth....

And funnily, siding with the IoM allows to raise casualities to new levels.
But I am also a defensive player, keeping my own men alive.

4M2A wrote:We are looking at this purely from a fluff perspective. This is exactly what the imperium wants, but their traditions and faith prevent them from flourishing, something the Tau suffer from. If the imperium copied the Tau they would be able to defeat a lot of the armies in a very short period of time.

Oh the IoM was on the move, pre-heresy with its combined strength of astartes,guard and mechanicum.
Then, their military got nearly halved....

The IoM could outdo everything in production rate, but there is no intend on GW's part to hand the IoM a loaded gun to point at the agressors, as we may all agree that Grimdark is the primary directive of their fluff writing. And the option to lower the threat
level may bring a light into this Galaxy that is not weak enough to dim again. So ignorance and oppression keep the
background grim and dark and give them excuses for lack of creativity.

4M2A wrote:The ethereals don't really control the Tau that much. They have the ability to but most of the time it isn't needed. The Tau have seen what happens when their species doesn't cooperate and are terrified of returning to that. The Greater good is quite transparent, they want to reduce suffering. The reason they are willing to fight for it is due to aiming for the long run rather than expecting it to work straight away. If the Ethereals wanted to trick them they wouldn't take in other races. Every time a race joins the greater good, the ethereal become less in control as they can only control tau, so more of the empire become uncontrollable.

If you hate the ethereals what do you think about farsight? He has an empire fighting for the greater good but without ethereals.

Aiming for the long run as a race of shortlived creatures? I think they lack the horizon to imagine a timeframe of centurys.
If too many of this empire are not Tau, why should they strive for a greater good again?
Fine, Tau fear a civil war. Others may not. Tau have their etherals to guide them, others may follow their own leaders.
So if a race joined and defected later, are they all considered enemys or is there a difference at a certain level?
How do they treat those defecting?
Plus, if youre right and the Tau would be less than 10-15% of their empires population someday, would those outnumbering the Tau not move the direction of the empire in their favor?

Said it before but may repeat: Farsight has seen the light. He accepted the futility of uniting everyone and I believe he could be the last Tau in this Galaxy when the Empire managed to bite more that they can chew. OTOH, he got this weapon of unknown origin...

4M2A wrote:True but it is least evil to try and work together first. The chaos are a threat to the IoM and the IoM is a threat to the greater good. If the IoM can attack chaos the Tau can attack the IoM.

Umm, chaos was the agressor and your example would go:

Chaos -> IoM
Tau -> IoM

Even the interex seen chaos as a major threat, and so did the eldar. Both long before Tau existed.
Tau are new, and ran already into a conflict with almost anyone.

The idea of the IoM accepting the greater good is a case of naivity or just dumb. The only power to order any change is the Emperor himself and I doubt they can contact him. Maybe stop nerfing the IoM and we will forget you and youre free to act.
Outside of Imperial space, of course.

4M2A wrote:This is true and the imperium is obviously one of the lighter shades of grey but when the people who designed Tau said they are meant to be the most good force, I think they are right. Of all people the designers know most about 40k.

Designers? They intend,yes, but know? Too much reason to criticise them in their work to take them as 100% correct.

Sadly, you go for "most good" so have to disagree.



PS: Ah nearly forgot my dutys:
They are evil vile xenos scum

One can make an argument for Chaos, considering one of the only 'peaceful' civilisations so far presented in 40k fluff was in Pawns of Chaos, and they worshipped Tzeentch. They lived happily until the evil Imperial forces came to their world and attacked them, but wise Tzeentch sent a Greater Demon to the world, whom was to turn into a Warp Storm, which would tear apart the entire Imperial Army and their ships, and shield the world from further attack.

None of the people on this world were interested in galactic conquest and were perfectly happy living secluded away from the rest of the Galaxy in peace, yet Tzeentch was supplying them with live stock, beasts of burden and gifts for what praise they could manage and was willing to take out the big guns to save this world. Doesn't sound something many other races and leaders would be willing to do.

So then, since no one can all-encompassingly define what "good" and "evil" is, we can conclude that it varies from person to person. If it varies from person to person, then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has to differ from species to species. Given this, are we expected to answer the poll with regard to how we personally feel, how the Imperium would feel given that we are human, or how a random species would feel about all of the species in question? Since it's a multiple choice answer, I chose all of them, though deep down inside, I know for a fact that the Squats were the only truly good people, which is why they had to die for your sins. Shame on all of you and may Zombie Midget-Jesus have mercy upon your souls when he does finally return to us.

Given that it seems 90% likely that the Tau are a vehicle for the Deceiver or the Outsider (most likely the Deceiver) to refine the next generation of Necrons without the flaws of their previous creations, I'm not sure that anyone can say how good their outcome will be, no matter the purity of their intentions. There's a reason that only the Tau have widespread AI usage, and their... interesting... relationship to psykers and the warp are pretty much perfect for the C'tan.

Then again, the Tech priests could turn out to be gen 2 depending on how Mars and the Void Dragon plays out.

daedalus wrote:So then, since no one can all-encompassingly define what "good" and "evil" is, we can conclude that it varies from person to person. If it varies from person to person, then we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has to differ from species to species. Given this, are we expected to answer the poll with regard to how we personally feel, how the Imperium would feel given that we are human, or how a random species would feel about all of the species in question? Since it's a multiple choice answer, I chose all of them, though deep down inside, I know for a fact that the Squats were the only truly good people, which is why they had to die for your sins. Shame on all of you and may Zombie Midget-Jesus have mercy upon your souls when he does finally return to us.

People can all-encompassingly define it. Read up on the history of moral philosophy.

RisingPheonix where are you getting that from. The outsider can't do anything at the moment, and there is no proof the deciever had anything to do with them. The c'tan don't need more soldiers. If the awaken the necrons they can potentially wipe out the galaxy, again.

1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.