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Tyranids rule the stars!

Klawz wrote:Tyranids rule the stars!

Actually, they eat them: Omnomnomnom !

If you had to choose:
Kill a 1000 ants or let your family die...
Would you even doubt about it?
That is the way Eldar see it.
Is this bad? Your choice.

I think it's closer to "Kill 1000 puppies or let one human die." The principle is the same though.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I think it's closer to "Kill 1000 puppies or let one human die." The principle is the same though.

I think I'd let the human bite it even for just one puppy. Puppies are awesome.

There you go. So somewhere out there is an Eldar Xenos who thinks humans are awesome.

Emperors Faithful wrote:There you go. So somewhere out there is an Eldar Xenos who thinks humans are awesome.

This brings up another discussion we recently had.

Good call .

Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.

blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.

Poor example. Chaos in and of itself is not Evil, it is just not structured(Lawful). The reason I haven't voted or really participated in this thread is because Good and Evil are both subjective with most things that are considered evil being completely dependent upon the enviroment that you exist in.

When looking at the environment of the 40K universe, there are a couple of races that really can't be defined as evil.

1)The Tyranids, really have no free will in the matter, they are just feeding like any other predator or virus.

2)Orks are following a genetically preprogrammed personality. Their very nature is war and rebirth.


While the other races can make the excuse that they are just trying to survive, that is just a rationalization for the evil things that they are doing. Of these Races The Tau do stand out as being willing to cooperate with other races and will treat their prisoners well(Before you start there is nothing within the written history of the game that says other-wise, People need to realize the difference between video games supplied by 3rd parties and the game that GW produces.), but thay still will kill every thinking creature that does not accept their Greater Good. There is no way to define a race or nation as good or evil, when doing so you are just imposing your set of abstract concepts upon someone elses.

The best descriptor would be that most are Amoral entities. The possible exception to this could be the Dark Eldar, they are possibly the only truely evil faction within 40K, because thay have dedicated themselves to being evil.

blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

I voted Tau. Sure they kill you if you don't join the greater good but as there is no real definition of the greater good it isn't hard to qualify. All you have to do is accept trade and not kill each other and your ok.

focusedfire wrote:
*snip*

1) Tyranids are, by their very nature, self-destructive and counter-productive. In the end, once they have nothing left to eat, they will starve. Though you might as well compare varocious nasy-gribbly-looking locusts and call them evil.

Is that evil? Probably not, but meh.

2) Orks also practice slavery on humans. As far as I can make sense of the issue this can't possibly be genetically programmed.

Evil?

It all depends as to whether you view Evil as relative and, if not, then how is it defined.

Im confused as to why everyone is saying eldar are evil. They avoid fighting whenever they can and only fight when they forsee that it will make their future safer and result in less loss of eldar life, or to defend their maiden worlds. Not wanting to die isn't evil.
Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Nids are just hungry, but when percieved from the food's point of view, its evil
necrons want to destroy all life, thats pretty evil.
Chaos want the galaxy to burn, i'd class that as a bit evil.
Dark Eldar are profesional in slavery and torture, evil.
Orks live to fight, its just what they are made to do, its not particulary evil, its just what they do.
The Imperium are supposedly the good guys but they will happily throw a million soldiers a day to their death with a flashlight to defend themselves, thats more ruthless than evil, but its definitly not good

Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

One of the reasons I wanted to play Tau was the fact that they were 'the Good Guys' (or rather the 'less bad' guys). The other was that they were like the Covenant and the Federation. I usually pretend they are humans who are independent of the Imperium of Man. Thats why all my firewarriors wear their helmets

In the Dark Eldar codex, it mentions how they are the most evil malicious race in 40k.

I have a hard time seeing the Tau as Communist...they have a rigid caste system, etc.

I can definitely sympathize with calling the Eldar "evil," as they have been pushed to extremes when it comes to preserving their race (not any more than the Imperium, though, what with Exterminatus and all).

Also, @Focusedfire: Your definition of Chaos as not evil,just lacking order, is perhaps dictionary correct but I don't think it holds water in the 40k universe. The point is, as I understand it, is that sentient life has give Chaos order through hatred, jealousy, and anger. To me, it is pretty cut and dried that Chaos in the 40k setting is intended to be evil incarnate.

Oh, and I definitely agree with disregardign the DoW games as solid fluff sources. I still remember the dialouge for the "Eliminate the IG" mission in Soulstorm that stated the base had just shipped out 100(!) Baneblade tanks for use elsewhere in the same system .

if you ask me, necrons are not essentially evil, it is the c'tan who are the evil ones. The Deciever tricked the Necrotyr into becoming the C'tan's slaves, killing or harvesting souls for the C'tan to consume. Necrons have no 'consciousness' of whats going on around them, its only the lords who remember a bit of their past lives. so, necrons are just mindless husks.

I think we mean necrons as a force, which means C'tan.

I see everyone saying Eldar or Tau isn't evil.
But at the end of the day, every race will have the same motives:
My race has to survive.
The way they achieve it can vary from race to race.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

2) Orks also practice slavery on humans. As far as I can make sense of the issue this can't possibly be genetically programmed.

Evil?

It all depends as to whether you view Evil as relative and, if not, then how is it defined.

How can the Orks have mechanical and medical abilities genetically preprogrammed? Also, the Orks treat their human captives better than they treat their own Grots so from an Ork stand point they treat the humans fairly well.

It is nor wherher you veiw the consept as relative. It is whether or not you can accept the fact that it is relative and purely dependent upon the conditions in which you were raised.

Gorechild wrote:Im confused as to why everyone is saying eldar are evil. They avoid fighting whenever they can and only fight when they forsee that it will make their future safer and result in less loss of eldar life, or to defend their maiden worlds. Not wanting to die isn't evil.
Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.
Nids are just hungry, but when percieved from the food's point of view, its evil
necrons want to destroy all life, thats pretty evil.
Chaos want the galaxy to burn, i'd class that as a bit evil.
Dark Eldar are profesional in slavery and torture, evil.
Orks live to fight, its just what they are made to do, its not particulary evil, its just what they do.
The Imperium are supposedly the good guys but they will happily throw a million soldiers a day to their death with a flashlight to defend themselves, thats more ruthless than evil, but its definitly not good

1)The Eldar are Prideful and arrogant, this is considered an evil trait. They were also responsible for creating the Eye of Terror and Slanesh. The fact that they have to constantly guard against their own nature or become like the Dark Eldar doesn't inspire poeple to believe that they are basically good. Again, Good and evil are relative concepts.

2) The fact that the Tau give other races the option to join is decidedly less evil than the other races that make free will decision of kill them all without question.Most races in 40K just have a "die" attitude towards other races. Now, the Tau's practice of methodically killing those whom oppose them could be viewed as good or evil depending upon which side you support.

3)Yet from a natural Darwinian point of view the Tyranids are not evil and could be viewed as an ultimate evolutionary form could be considered by some as something good to aspire to.

4) Chaos's wish for the galaxy to burn could be seen as a good thing. Much like a forset fire burning through an overgrown forest. It clears off the choking undergrowth and leaves only the healthiest alive with a renewed area for growth. Evil from the under brush side of things, but eventually a good thing for the trees and fuana.

5)I mentioned the Dark Eldar as an exception in that they have made the conscious choice to be evil. Yet their decision is good for them in that it keep them safe from other forces.

6)Agreed on the Orks

7) I agree to some extent. IG/Imperium can be viewed as either good or evil. They are a force of wanton destruction that regularlt commits Genocide on a System wide level but they are a force that protects the lives of 500 trillion lives.

Again, the concept of good and evil is a relative one.

I've just learned that Tau practice slavery too. In the Taros Campaign human POWs get sentanced to hard labour for life for the greater good.

Tyranids are not evil at all , there just trying to surive.
Chaos is partly evil , but truly its just in constant civil war , just like some one pointded out.
Tau destroy any thing that dont belive in the greater good but still are a great race.
Imperium is good or evil but in the end unites humanity.
Elder made a great mistake and fall .
Orks , they just want to have fun
necrons ... Slaves to the ctan , the true evil behind the necrons.
Dark Elder ... EVIL!

@focusedfire: If it is agreed that enslaving people, by it's nature, is an evil act then it can only be said that Orks certainly aren't bereift of evil. The good treatment is admirable, but ultimately makes little difference (although comparing their treatment to grots isn't that great. And they don't conciously go out of their way to make things more bearable).

Tyranids are by their very nature evil. Their path can only lead to oblivion when either they are defeated or when they consume all biomass and starve themselves. Nothing good can come out of this process, so it can only be seen as evil.

I suppose the same could be argued for orks, but that's a bit of a stretch.

blood reaper wrote:Tau destroy any thing that dont belive in the greater good but still are a great race.

Please read some background material on Tau before posting stuff like that. Or at least this page here.

Kroothawk wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Tau are evil as any othere race " join us , become a slave and mindless drone , or die becuase you don't beleve in the Greater good " . Tau are slaves to there sad religon the "Greater good" its just as evil as chaos.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

Kroothawk wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

Kroothawk wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Tau destroy any thing that dont belive in the greater good but still are a great race.

Please read some background material on Tau before posting stuff like that. Or at least this page here.

How about a less repetitive posts?

Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view?

Why don't you base your argument on the codex/rulebook?
But maybe the design team forgot to repeat their notes there......

He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.

On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?

Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.

On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?

From our real life examples of self proclaimed communists here in europe: NO.


In a SF universe, GW may claim whatever they want.
Still, 40k is a dark place (looking at the intro of the rulebook) and I doubt the intend of a race of 'good guys' on GW's part.
Different motives, sure.
But the course of the background is somtimes erraneous, ( example BA/necrons ), and I wouldn't bet my firstborn child on
a weak argument like designers notes predating the first codex.

IMO, Tau got the caste system from india, the way of the warrior from japan, the communist approach to education and indoctrination,
work like an ant-hill ( greater good, etheral=queen ) and were a fine addition to 40k until their fans got mad at those disagreeing with them. People make fun of races in a good humored way, but if you criticise Tau, youre gonna burn as it seems you just pissed in their coffee. I don't know, when I ask which other codex/race uses designers notes as argument, there is only silence.

As the 'greater good' is some sort of ideology and ideology isn't considered a good thing, as 'unbelievers' will not stay unharmed when the 'believers' intend to reach 100%. Plus 40k isn't meant for less casualities, its expanding to have more explosions and fiery death.
So Peace and goodwill contradicts the intend of 'eternal war', which is the motto of 40k.

Tau can't act as good guys, as the game universe demands conflicts, therefore a reason to oppose them has to exist.
See, don't need to make em bad guys, just accept the incompatibility of a too positive view of any race.

Say NO to the greater good, abhor the xenos.

The question is "Who is the least evil?"

the answer will always be NIDS they bear the universe no malice what so ever , were just a huge menu to them !!!!

Q - do you have to feel evil thoughts towards your dinner to eat it ???
A- no its just food , you have no ill will or bad feelings toward it at all.

same with nids , its not personal WERE JUST DINNER .

Amorality isn't on the scale of good and evil.

If you consider the Tyranids to be amoral, you can't consider them to be the least evil.