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Anidem wrote:The debates and discussions in this thread have move most of Dakka (and myself) into Accepting the Greater Good, as the Only Good.

at 31% integration into the empire, i think its safe to say Tau are possibly the closest thing we will ever get to a Benevolent race in 40K

Nids. Just nature doing nature things.

@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.

@Kroothawk-Lets look at what it says about the Kroot Merc's in WD 265
Quote A)Kroot mercenary armies fight alongside a score of races across a thousand war-zones. As payment for their services these kroot often obtain weapons not available to them when fighting alongside the Tau.
Quote B)A Master Shaper rules over a mercenary band. He negotiates contracts with employers, leads his warriors in battle and directs their evolutionary developement. He will often be armed with the most valuable equipment available, bartered or looted from the many warzones his band has served in.

Earlier I left you a choice in the reasons for the Kroots motivations as to why they hire themselves out. The choice is important in that it deals with the threads topic and how your current stance on the Kroots motivations for being mercenaries contradicts your stance that the Tau are good. The choice was this:

focusedfire wrote:Mercenaries are those that fight for weapons and money. Creatures that fight for food are hunting dogs. This leaves you with a choice:
1)If you decide to accept them as mercenaries fighting for tech, supplies and wealth then you are supporting the concept of the Tau as a benevolent race.

2)If you decide to have them fight for the food that they already have the capacity to provide for themselves, then you are supporting the Tau as an exploitative race that is engaging in animal cruelty.

So are the Tau a good and kind race that assists less fortunate races or do they exploit les developed races by asking for everything from their allies while giving nothing in return?

You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".

Personally I can see these issues being recociled in the next codex by having the whole thing being a ruse and that the primary reason is that the kroot are the Taus intell for what happens outside of the Tau empire borders. Basically they are like Eldar Rangers in that they travel and acquire information.

1hadhq wrote:
2) You may disagree but history doesn't. Could depend which "history" we use tough...

3) the timeline is already at M41 But the power of the emperor keeps it at M41/42. Frozen time FTW.

4) who tried in M30? M20? M10?

7) Since they started with codex Tau and moved on to Tau empire, the intend of the first book is now the same starting point as the others
races have had, but the second book changed things to implement the neccessitys of an empire and therfore intend of 1st codex isn't
the actual official background of them anymore as a new codex replaces the old one.

8) Sorry. but the overwhelming mass of chants of blue/grey saviours got the better of me.

2)My point about relativism

3)Doh!!, Yeah it is stuck permanently in the teay 999.9 of the 40th Millenium. Don't know why I was thinking year 39,999.

4)Mankind set out to reclaim and reunite the human race at year 20,000-ish. This means another race(Eldar maybe) was the dominant power. Then around 30,000 Chaos rose up. In 40,000 it is the Tau emerging

7) The Tau are still written as Idealistic. The next codex will incorporate all the new fluff that is mentioned in the SW and 'Nids. Most of which seems to have the Tau getting there tails handed to them.(Not sure if I'm going to like the new fluff when it comes out.

8)No problem, they annoy the heck out of me, too.

1hadhq wrote:

Anidem wrote:The debates and discussions in this thread have move most of Dakka (and myself) into Accepting the Greater Good, as the Only Good.

at 31% integration into the empire, i think its safe to say Tau are possibly the closest thing we will ever get to a Benevolent race in 40K

Remember, don't judge all Tau players by the idealsts.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.

Exactly, Not denying that they travel and hunt for fresh food sources, Just arguing why they chose to be mercenaries. They could get access to fresh food sources without having to hire out as mercenaries.

IMHO Orks are the least evil race in 40k. No plans to kill all life (Necrons), no evil gods (Chaos), no manipulations of "lesser" races (Eldar), no plans to eat all life ('Nids), no fanatical racism (Imperials), and no plans to form an empire (Tau). All they want is a good fight.

4M2A wrote:The imperium are constantly trying to take planets. When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.

Meh, we're not trying to take the planet, we're just trying to kill them before they try to kill us! I guess the Bush Doctrine is still alive and well even 40,000 years in the future.

focusedfire wrote:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.

Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@KrootHawk: I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. I'm not denying the fact that Kroot eat their foes while on Mercenary missions, but (and this is what I locked horns with my friend over) I don't think that is the sole reason that they act as mercenaries. They fight for other races in return for technology which they cannot make themselves, eating the dead enemy isn't the pay-day itself.

As the authors explicitely say: Saving the survival of the race is the ultimate reason for the mercenary missions, getting new toys is a nice and welcome by-product. And you don't intoduce yourself to Xeno soldiers with "Hi, I am Bob, I am a Kroot, and the major weakness of our race is our highly mobile DNA." Saying "Give us weapons and let us feed on our enemies," sounds better and doesn't give anything away, fooling even a few 40k gamers

focusedfire wrote:You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".

There is absolutely no contradiction if you fully understand what the authors say.
1.) Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel. "Tau stay in the village, Kroot travel the world", so to speak.
2.) Tau don't subjugate the Kroot, so no forcing. And I don't think that the Tau know about the specific Kroot biology, why they have to eat enemies. To Tau it looks just like a savage tradition of a warrior class. And dissecting friends is difficult. Otherwise they would have noticed the second brain situated around the stomach, organizing the extraction of DNA (->Xenology).
3.) Kroot biology makes eating an exchange (or rather one-way assimilation) of DNA. Every human society has strong taboos for DNA exchange in too close boundaries (->incest), Kroot have the same for eating. Always eating dumb animals would make Kroot dumb like Krootoxen and Kroot hounds. Shapers know that very well. So they have to eat intelligent life forms. Many intelligent life forms don't want to be eaten by Kroot so fight back -> Mercenary missions perfectly allow you to kill intelligent life forms. These "wars" are necessary for the survival of the Kroot race.

But the above posts clearly show that both of you have not yet fully understood what the author's concept of the Kroot race really is. You really shouldn't blame or discredit the authors so quickly.

Azzeh wrote:IMHO Orks are the least evil race in 40k. No plans to kill all life (Necrons), no evil gods (Chaos), no manipulations of "lesser" races (Eldar), no plans to eat all life ('Nids), no fanatical racism (Imperials), and no plans to form an empire (Tau). All they want is a good fight.

At one point they where nicer than that, i forgot which race, but one of the elder races (waaaaay back, like Eldar old) created the Orks as a means to Combat the Necrons

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.

iirc in the Tau codex it stated that they had massive frequent run-ins with chaos, being that chaos hates the fact that they are (nearly) incorruptable. The codex entry further went to state that the Air caste has a massive fleet sitting in front of the warpcasm, prepared to defend Tau colonies the second daemons pop out from the warp

Kroothawk wrote:

focusedfire wrote:You see there is a big hole in the fluff that I feel GW notced and scrapped because they were re-organizing the codex formats and because they knew that they were going to have to rewrite in order to make sense. Here is the back story problem:
Problem A) Backstory says that the Tau are technologically advanced, treat their allies well, value the kroots adaptive abilities and view them as equals in the Empire.
Problem B) Kroot Merc backstory says that the Tau don't face a large enough variety of opponents and that fighting exclusively for the Tau would lead to evolutionary dead-ends that would rob them of their special adaptive abilities.
These problem points create the following conflicts:
1) Tau face every known race in combat, which makes the reason to hire out to other races for genetic variety an unnecessary risk and creates a back story contradiction.
2) If the Tau are scientifically advanced, value the kroots abilities and treat heir allies well, "Why would the Tau try to force the Kroot onto a path of evolutionary stagnation where they will stop being an asset?
3) If the Kroot are already space capable hunters, "Why do they need to jepoardize their lives and precious dna in unnecessary wars when they can just hunt the animals needed for variety?".

There is absolutely no contradiction if you fully understand what the authors say.
1.) Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel. "Tau stay in the village, Kroot travel the world", so to speak.
2.) Tau don't subjugate the Kroot, so no forcing. And I don't think that the Tau know about the specific Kroot biology, why they have to eat enemies. To Tau it looks just like a savage tradition of a warrior class. And dissecting friends is difficult. Otherwise they would have noticed the second brain situated around the stomach, organizing the extraction of DNA (->Xenology).
3.) Kroot biology makes eating an exchange (or rather one-way assimilation) of DNA. Every human society has strong taboos for DNA exchange in too close boundaries (->incest), Kroot have the same for eating. Always eating dumb animals would make Kroot dumb like Krootoxen and Kroot hounds. Shapers know that very well. So they have to eat intelligent life forms. Many intelligent life forms don't want to be eaten by Kroot so fight back -> Mercenary missions perfectly allow you to kill intelligent life forms. These "wars" are necessary for the survival of the Kroot race.

But the above posts clearly show that both of you have not yet fully understood what the author's concept of the Kroot race really is. You really shouldn't blame or discredit the authors so quickly.

I've known all along that I was talking to a fan but you are starting to come across as more of the root word fanatic. You are deliberately closing your eyes to valid points and are insisting that you have a much deeper understanding of the authors intent. What, you guys date while the material was being written?
Your focus upon the authors implied intent is blinding you to what GW currently recognizes and the direction that the company may be taking.

Yes the kroot merc list was chapter approved, which means that they no longer are accepted as a stand alone army. As to the back story with these materials? Well Gw has made errors before, I seem to remember that when the Harlequins hit the field against one certain army, that army would have to automatically pack up and leave. There was also the Chaos couldn't be fielded against the Tyranids rule/back story during this time period.

What you are not getting is that GW constantly abandons elements of back story that they find inconvenient and obstructive to their goal of selling more models. This covers why GW declared chapter approved armies no longer official. Going from the fact that they are no longer official then the back ground materials within these chapter approved lists can not be applied to the 40K universe.
Now if you want to argue origin rather than the Kroots current official position then there are the aforementioned contidictions. Also, arguing such ignores the direction that GW seems to be taking the Tau. Here, I'll reply to your points explaining.

1)The Tau originally had limited warp travel but has changed because GW is putting the Tau in conflict with all 40K factions. As to the kroot having warp travel, please show where such is stated within the Tau Codex. Heck, where does it say such in the Chapter approved list. Everything I can remember had the Warspheres as less capable than the Ork ships they were derived from.
Now if you take transportation to these other feeding grounds into account as part off their mercenary contracts then yes, the kroot are trading for Tech.

If you want to go with the kroot as fully warp capable then you end up with the question of, "Why the Tau are not using the Kroot as their navigators? Why aren't the Warspheres more battle capable?. Originally it was thought that the kroot warspheres were docked and transported through the warp by those more technologically advanced.
If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.

2)Using the Tau codex from the same time period that the Chapter approved kroot merc's list was published, it is clear that the the Tau knew that the Kroot need a variety of prey and that part of their deal gave the kroot the tech to acquire a greater variety. It is also inferred that the Tau have been "examining" the Kroots physiology. Also, the kroot wouldn't care if the Tau looked through a dead kroots remains, just so long as they got to eat it later.

3)First you argue greater variety then you use human sensibilities as to why the kroot hire as mercenaries. With your statement here, you are at best your contradicting yourself and at worst you are being deliberately obtuse. There are many planets that the Kroot could hunt and not come into conflict with other races. There has to be a better reason than "Need to Eat" for the Kroot to be hiring themselves out as mercenaries. The best argument for such is to gain acces to the benifits of more advanced tech.

focusedfire wrote:

4)Mankind set out to reclaim and reunite the human race at year 20,000-ish. This means another race(Eldar maybe) was the dominant power. Then around 30,000 Chaos rose up. In 40,000 it is the Tau emerging

7) The Tau are still written as Idealistic. The next codex will incorporate all the new fluff that is mentioned in the SW and 'Nids. Most of which seems to have the Tau getting there tails handed to them.(Not sure if I'm going to like the new fluff when it comes out.

4) The BRB sets the age of tech to M18-M23, so these humans explored and claimed the galaxy but did not reclaim it.
Age of strive followed, M23-M30, so the time to reclaim was the great crusade. taken from BRB, page 122-123..
Eldar had their chance after the C'tan gone sleeping and the enslavers died out. Seems they preferred to create a chaos "god".
As they were already a space faring race and strong enough to serve in a galaxy wide war, should an answer not contain a new race
for M20 instead of a wellknown one?

7) There is a chance in defeat. To learn to cooperate without controlling your partner. Tau need to evolve to stay, can't oppose
every other race as they would with the militaristic take in C:Tau empire. With threats like nids and crons, its harder to survive.
Mankind had to deal with orks, Tau got orks + Elfs + humans + bugs + robots + demons....
Maybe a mix of Farsight and Shadowsun will be the new route. Maybe a character dies ( C: IG ).

Anidem wrote:
At one point they where nicer than that, i forgot which race, but one of the elder races (waaaaay back, like Eldar old) created the Orks as a means to Combat the Necrons

Why should krork be nicer than ork? Better control may not make them nicer.
Back when the old ones ruined the galaxy in their fight against C'tan/ necrontyr,
orks and eldar ( plus some I dont recall yet ) were the figures on the playground so to speak. Both suffered heavily and the C'tan nearly
harvested the whole galaxy. The weapon of last resort of the old ones was to use the empyrean, thus screwing the creatures there and creating the things we know now as chaos. But the old ones didn't survive and the 'minions' weren't able to rule a galaxy.
The orks turned to savages, as their leaders died out and the Eldar were too drunk of their power to see the fall....

Orks respect only power, so they are only nice if you got more power.

OTOH wh 40k orks are not evil like other orks (tolkien,..) as they lack evil villains to command them.

Sorry I jumped in late on this one, but I just wanted to point out: Every other species is bent on slaughter of others. Tau have a caste system and are born to serve. Evil commies. Imperials want to dominate and have everyone under their 'benevolent' inquisition, shovelling men to die by the million and exterminating entire planets of whoever doesn't pay homage to the Emperor. Evil self-righteous fanatics. Orks just want to fight. Evil bullies. Necrons and Chaos are obvious evil psycho killers. Dark Eldar... evil sadists. Nids just want to eat the universe on instinct. Evil stupid bugs.

The only one left is Eldar. They live in a free society where they are able to choose their path, if you want to be a warrior be a warrior, if you want to be a potter or a singer or a poet you can do that instead. They have no 'ranks' as we know them, just roles each play for the good of all the others as a whole.

They take care of their own, and really just want to be left alone to follow their paths, floating around space unmolested by all the insanity of the rest of the galaxy. They only fight to defend themselves, and although they manipulate others, it isn't to establish dominance, conquer, fight, or just killings sake it is to play enemies against each other so that, again, they can just be left alone.

Maybe that's why they are almost extinct. Hard to be left alone in a galaxy where everyone else is hell bent on war and conquest and all you really want to do (after the fall of course) is pursue your art.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Not to nitpick buuut the only major opponents over time that Tau have faced are Orks, Humans and (more recently) Tyranids. All conflicts with other races such as the alliance with Ultramarines against Necrons, the fighting on Medusa with Chaos (Don't you dare treat the Firewarrior as Canon) have been on a very small scale, perhaps only single meetings or battles. I can't recall any evidence at all of battles with Eldar or their Dark Kin. I'm guessing that the top three oponents simply aren't enough to go on for the Kroot.

Lets examine this for a second. By what has been published so far, the Tau have fough in major engagements against:

1)IG-Damocles Gulf and some other battles
2)Specific SM Chapters-Damocles Gulf and some othe battles
3)Orks-On Pech, Fio'vash and across the Damocles Gulf(Basically Every where)
4)Tyranids as covered in the new Tyranid Codex
5)More SM's as noted in the SW codex, Ultramarine Codex.
6)Have fough Chaos (Noted intheir own codex


This leaves the Eldar/Dark Eldar and the Necrons.
1)Both the Eldar and Dark Eldar rarely engage in anything lager than single battles that are timed to strike when they will cripple the enemy.(It was mentioned in the first Tau codex of Kroot killing and devouring a group of eldar rangers.)
2)It is usually accepted that the Tau have fought the necrons but there is no extablished cannon that I can think of.
3)The Tau "Assimilate smaller races. Either by negotiation or through force. There are most likely enough instances of where force is required to allow the kroot to thrive.

This doesn't take into account the Codices still to be realesed before the next Tau one. GW is pushing the Tau into an expanded position in the Galaxy. The stories do seem to indicate a darker period for the Tau, which flows into the concept of adding grimdark by watching the idealistic Tau suffer in the grim dark of 40K.

focusedfire wrote:I've known all along that I was talking to a fan but you are starting to come across as more of the root word fanatic. You are deliberately closing your eyes to valid points and are insisting that you have a much deeper understanding of the authors intent. What, you guys date while the material was being written?
Your focus upon the authors implied intent is blinding you to what GW currently recognizes and the direction that the company may be taking.

Yes the kroot merc list was chapter approved, which means that they no longer are accepted as a stand alone army. As to the back story with these materials? Well Gw has made errors before, I seem to remember that when the Harlequins hit the field against one certain army, that army would have to automatically pack up and leave. There was also the Chaos couldn't be fielded against the Tyranids rule/back story during this time period.

What you are not getting is that GW constantly abandons elements of back story that they find inconvenient and obstructive to their goal of selling more models. This covers why GW declared chapter approved armies no longer official. Going from the fact that they are no longer official then the back ground materials within these chapter approved lists can not be applied to the 40K universe.
Now if you want to argue origin rather than the Kroots current official position then there are the aforementioned contidictions. Also, arguing such ignores the direction that GW seems to be taking the Tau. Here, I'll reply to your points explaining.

So basically your argument is: "GW has made mistakes before and sometimes changed background -> all background texts by the creators of the race are invalid and only those facts selected or made up by focusedfire can be called true."
Well apart from being a non-valid logical conclusion, I wouldn't call this a non-fanatical approach to a discussion

focusedfire wrote:1)The Tau originally had limited warp travel but has changed because GW is putting the Tau in conflict with all 40K factions. As to the kroot having warp travel, please show where such is stated within the Tau Codex. Heck, where does it say such in the Chapter approved list. Everything I can remember had the Warspheres as less capable than the Ork ships they were derived from.
Now if you take transportation to these other feeding grounds into account as part off their mercenary contracts then yes, the kroot are trading for Tech.

If you want to go with the kroot as fully warp capable then you end up with the question of, "Why the Tau are not using the Kroot as their navigators? Why aren't the Warspheres more battle capable?. Originally it was thought that the kroot warspheres were docked and transported through the warp by those more technologically advanced.
If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.

Well, as you can't be convinced to read the Kroot background material and don't read this thread, let me help you with quotes:

Index Xenos Kroot wrote:While the Kroot have relatively limited warp-capable ships, their understanding of their workings is an innate one, believed to be gleaned from eating the flesh of Ork Meks rather than a learned one.(...)

Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It would appear they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.

The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.

Battlefleet Gothic Rules, Kroot Warsphere entry wrote:Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It appears they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.

The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.

Warspheres have a single drive running through their core from north to south pole and manoeuvring thrusters along their equator. These engines are reliable but very basic making Warspheres very slow. They are powerful enough to allow the Warsphere to land and take-off from a planet although the process is not elegant. When dirtside the manoeuvring thrusters will normally be used to bury the Warsphere.

Now tell me that the BFG rules are non-GW fan-products, that the authors obviously don't have a clue and that, because GW has made a mistake once, everything written in this book still on sale is invalid.

focusedfire wrote:2)Using the Tau codex from the same time period that the Chapter approved kroot merc's list was published, it is clear that the the Tau knew that the Kroot need a variety of prey and that part of their deal gave the kroot the tech to acquire a greater variety. It is also inferred that the Tau have been "examining" the Kroots physiology. Also, the kroot wouldn't care if the Tau looked through a dead kroots remains, just so long as they got to eat it later.

The old Codex mentions two different sources: One (Olyr'Ra, page 10) seems to know of the DNA thing even while not understandning the Warsphere travels, while the general Kroot entry says that most Tau consider the eating of enemies barbaric and hope the Kroot will drop that habit when more cultivated (so most are not aware of the necessity). Kroot need more diversity than found in the Tau Empire. And Tau didn't and couldn't provide technology to go further than Tau can (-> said warp technology).

focusedfire wrote:3)First you argue greater variety then you use human sensibilities as to why the kroot hire as mercenaries. With your statement here, you are at best your contradicting yourself and at worst you are being deliberately obtuse. There are many planets that the Kroot could hunt and not come into conflict with other races. There has to be a better reason than "Need to Eat" for the Kroot to be hiring themselves out as mercenaries. The best argument for such is to gain acces to the benifits of more advanced tech.

There must be a better reason than the survival of the race? BTW it should be obvious by now that they "hunt" other races, not some ducks and rabbits. And while they appreciate better guns and such, they seem to have no use for high-tech like vehicles.

As someone whom you discredited as a fanatic, I answered with quotes by the creators of the race. How about giving any evidence for your POV, if there is any. Esp. that every background text by the creators is invalid according to GW. Esp. when even the recent Apocalypse Kroot datasheet mentions the DNA thing and not fighting for access to new technology:

Apocalypse Kroot datasheet wrote:Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. (...) Unfortunately the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, so they secretly dispatch whole armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races to expose themselves to genetic materialand environments not found in Tau space.

Let me guess: Another irrelevant fanfiction by incompetent creators of the race, overwritten and made invalid by some secret GW documents that only you have seen

Kroothawk wrote:
So basically your argument is: "GW has made mistakes before and sometimes changed background -> all background texts by the creators of the race are invalid and only those facts selected or made up by Games Workshop can be called true."
Well apart from being a non-valid logical conclusion, I wouldn't call this a non-fanatical approach to a discussion

Fixed it for you. And yes, so far your conclusions have lacked validity in that you ignore the parts of your own chosen non-recognized source material that contradict your argument.

But please, continue to plug your ears, close your eyes and say Lalalalalala I can't here or see anything contridictory so it doesn't exist. The only reality is a codex not recognized by Games Workshop.

You see, I can admit when the material you've refferenced contradicts my position but I then move to the credibility of using such in the current debate. Your are arguing from a stand point that if it was once recognized as valid then its true. This is like saying Man once believed the world was flat so it must still be flat.

Kroothawk wrote:Well, as you can't be convinced to read the Kroot background material and don't read this thread, let me help you with quotes:

Quote from Index Xenos Kroot"While the Kroot have relatively limited warp-capable ships, their understanding of their workings is an innate one, believed to be gleaned from eating the flesh of Ork Meks rather than a learned one.(...)

Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It would appear they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.

The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded."

Ah yeah, I've read almost all of the back ground materials, not just the portion that suits my purposes. I have acknowledged when you have made a point but have been able refute most of said points as to being from sources that no longer apply to the game of 40K or its universe.

When the game of 40K first started, it was the fantasy game set in the future and had extensive material that supported such. GW seems to be, on many levels, divorcing the 40K universe from those fantasy roots. I can pull up source material from 10 years ago that contridicts current fluff. Which backstory do you think GW is going to say is valid?

While your above quote comes from one of those older sources, it does make mention of precious technology. So does the BFG below. As a matter of fact, in the BFG entry, it only mentions tech and nothing about acquiring DNA.

Thank you for providing material that makes my point.

Kroothawk wrote:
Quote from Battlefleet Gothic Rules: "[Kroot Warsphere entry]Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers. To the Kroot, warp travel is almost migratory and they seem incapable of navigating anywhere other than systems with habitable worlds. It appears they are drawn to functioning eco-systems.

The famous Kroot Warspheres are self-contained towns wherein is kept the retained knowledge of Kroot technology and the choicest items they have received as payment for their services. As such they do not risk them in battle willingly and try to avoid direct action against warships unless the need is great or they are being exceptionally well rewarded.

Warspheres have a single drive running through their core from north to south pole and manoeuvring thrusters along their equator. These engines are reliable but very basic making Warspheres very slow. They are powerful enough to allow the Warsphere to land and take-off from a planet although the process is not elegant. When dirtside the manoeuvring thrusters will normally be used to bury the Warsphere."

Now tell me that the BFG rules are non-GW fan-products, that the authors obviously don't have a clue and that, because GW has made a mistake once, everything written in this book still on sale is invalid.

Simple, with a few answerable questions

When was Tau portion BFG last published/updated?
Are there currently other Codices that have back stories that conflict with BFG
and
Did you read the line I high-lighted above? Again, you provide material contradicts your position.

Thank you for providing material that makes my point.

Kroothawk wrote:
As someone whom you discredited as a fanatic, I answered with quotes by the creators of the race. How about giving any evidence for your POV, if there is any. Esp. that every background text by the creators is invalid according to GW. Esp. when even the recent Apocalypse Kroot datasheet mentions the DNA thing and not fighting for access to new technology:

1)Can you play your Kroot merc list at GW sponsored tournaments?
2)Is what you are referencing a Licensed GW product?(BFG is a liscenced product and it fails mention the DNA thing while it does mention technology as precious and needing to be protected.)
3)Funny, neither my copy of Apoc or reload says anything about the Kroot fighting for DNA. If your talking about the datasheet supplement, I have not read over it due to my currently participating in the Boycott. If you want to post all Apoc text covering kroot I will be happy to read over such. So far though you have been hurting your case with the BFG quote.

Ah, discrediting GW's Battlefleet Gothic rules as just licenced by GW to GW, that's inventive
And boycotting the current Kroot texts in a Kroot discussion, that's a new one as well! Who is saying "Lalalalalala I can't hear or see anything contradictory" now
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf
Oh, and the background changes from 1st to 2nd edition completely invalidate the 3rd edition Tau Codex (which BTW is your only source), yeah sure

If you need all these obvious ad-hoc bendings of facts, logic and a boycott of all texts by the creators of the Kroot race, then a further discussion makes no sense. I have proven my point with quotes for everyone to see. It was answered by weird insults to the authors and me for everyone to see. Let the jury decide.

Kroothawk wrote:Ah, discrediting GW's Battlefleet Gothic rules as just licenced by GW to GW, that's inventive
And boycotting the current Kroot texts in a Kroot discussion, that's a new one as well! Who is saying "Lalalalalala I can't hear or see anything contradictory" now
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180086_Tau_Datasheet_-_Kroot_Mercenaries.pdf
Oh, and the background changes from 1st to 2nd edition completely invalidate the 3rd edition Tau Codex (which BTW is your only source), yeah sure

If you need all these obvious ad-hoc bendings of facts, logic and a boycott of all texts by the creators of the Kroot race, then a further discussion makes no sense. I have proven my point with quotes for everyone to see. It was answered by weird insults to the authors and me for everyone to see. Let the jury decide.

1)No attempt to discredit BFG. Was making point that it was an official licensed and produced GW product that argues against your point. Now who is being inventive?BTW, you might want to take it easy on the facepalms, it seems that you may have done enough damage playing football.

2)No, It was a simple statement as to why I have not read any of the new Apoc data sheets. Now pay real close attention, I'm about to do what I have done before yet you are unable to do the same when obvious counter evidence is posted:
The Data Sheet makes a point in favour of your argument.

Will you concede that the BFG entry makes a point for my side of the argument?

3)I believe that I have on several occasions pointed ouit that the 3rd edition codex is no longer a valid source. Have made it clear that seeing as you wanted to discuss 3rd ed materials it provided counter evidence to what you were using for 3rd ed relevant material.

Actually you are the one whom has deliberately tried to bend the facts by refusing to recognize the parts of your source material that argues against your point. There is evidence to suggest both. My original point was that they do both. You are the one insisting that no, they only fight for food that they could other-wise hunt.
BTW, your earlier point about them only going after developed sentient races is countered by what is in the new Apoc data sheet. Just an FYI

I don't see the tau as being a non-evil race simply because of their mantra of for the greater good. The tau may be more cosmopolitan than the imperium in that they take on allies and treat them as so called equals. They still have won't hesitate to wipe out any race that chooses to stand against being absorbed into the tau empire.

The orks are not evil in that they were created to do nothing but fight. They have no choice. They are like nature's way of making sure nobody is able to completely dominate the galaxy. The tyranids may fall into this catagory as well, but not enough is known about them to make that determination.

Eldar, on the other hand, strive to keep chaos out of the galaxy. They accept that they no longer are the stewards of the galaxy and have tried to steer mankind into filling that role. They represent the only truely free society in the 40k universe.

focusedfire wrote: Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.

I have little further helpful to add (if I had at any point anyway), so I'll just sig this.

BTW, I believe that the Tau and Ultramarines alliance against Necrons was canon.

Why not give the full context of the quote?

focusedfire wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Tau have no full warp-travel capability, so are limited to the Eastern fringe. Kroot have warp-travel.

If I believe your version the Kroot who were stuck using black powder weapons are more technologically advanced than the Tau. Methinks that thy Fan-fervor has carried thee beyond the bounds of logic.

Battlefleet Gothic Rules, Kroot Warsphere entry wrote:Unlike the Tau, the Kroot are capable of true warp travel but the exact method has been kept secret from their employers.