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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Neither orks nor nids are capable of being 'evil' since they don't have a morality.

If true that still only that makes them ammoral. Not 'least evil'.

4M2A wrote:EF- the difference is the Tau don't take away everything you have when you join the empire. If you have good technology and a well run society it doesn't really change. The kroot are part of the greater good and their society hasn't changed since they joined. The Tau may think they are savage but they know it's not their business to tell the kroot how to live.

They both make you comply with their rules but the Tau rules are a lot less restricting, whereas the imperium attempts to rule you.

Actually the Imperium hardly infringes on the culture of world under their command at all. he Ecclesiarchy is [i]veryp/i] lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety. For example, some world view him as a night spirit which protects the warriors of the tribe on their hunts, while other civilised worlds go with the more widely accepted view. Even mutants are tolerated, although their treatment varies wildly. I don't recall any tau fluff on their treatment regarding mutants at all.
Basically, the Imperium itself tends to leave worlds well enough alone but for three things.

1) Alien invasion, coercion and/or influence. Basically an outside threat.

2) Heresy, rebellion, or seccession.

3) Failure to comply with vital Imperial regiment and goods supplies.

All things considered the Imperium isn't as domineering as one might think. The actual running and culture of each world are left to those actually on it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Ecclesiarchy is very lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety.

You mean like the time they attacked the SW over it?

Of course I know the SW attacked first, but the fact that the Ecclesiarchy went to Fenris to check on them in the first place kind of takes away the "very"

There has always been a longstanding disgruntlement between the Ecclesiarchy and the SM chapters as SM refer to the Emperor as a man not a diety. A wonderful, poweful and courgaeous man, but still a man. This flies in the face of the Ecclesiarchie's teachings on godhood, but they can't afford to anger the SM chapters. Sometimes though certain chapters, SW being among them, do overstep the line. I can't remember exactly what piece of SW doctrine it was that upset the Ecclesiarchy so much though.

Nids, because they have no concept of good or evil so therefor how could what they are doing be viewed as either. They are devouring genetic material to stay alive and reproduce it just so happens we are in their path.

4M2A wrote:

1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.

You don't need to hurry.

The designer said before 1st codex so, now is he still at GW? Was there a second codex? Are codices always compatible in fluff?
Or worse are designers humans and therefore imperfect as we all are?

So Tau are part of the brighter side of 40k, but I dont think a codex repeated the notes, which is why none of the 2 codices get quoted
in this thread.

4M2A wrote:RisingPheonix where are you getting that from. The outsider can't do anything at the moment, and there is no proof the deciever had anything to do with them. The c'tan don't need more soldiers. If the awaken the necrons they can potentially wipe out the galaxy, again.

1hadhq, I am not able to comment on your other points due to time limits but, how can the designers be wrong. They created this race and have the ability to entiirely change it any time they wish. If they say they are the good force (which they did) then they are.

Their fluff is very clear that the technological pace of the Tau has out-accelerated every known pace that any other race has undergone. Their codex clearly describes a single tau of unusual appearance who walked into their camp and unified them in M37. The individual in question bypassed all guards and was treated with deference for his unquestionable authority (despite being a complete stranger, and also looking like none of them). Immediately after this, a brand new species emerged that was very different from th Tau, and ruled them. The technological change accelerated to an unheard of level at that point.

Also, more to the point, the C'tan do need more soldiers. Specifically, the C'tan could potentially wipe out the galaxy with their necrons, even though they have weakened (Necrons are failed creations, every death degrades their quality a little more). But what they could not do is assuredly win against the other C'tan, specifically the Nightbringer once he gets back up to speed and figures he can go have the other 3 meals. It's almost certain the Void Dragon is planning to obtain its own force with the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. It seems likely the Deceiver is making the new and improved Necrons out of the Tau. And no one has frak all idea what that lunatic the Outsider is up to.

Frankly, all of the fluff is clear that the Tau are an uplifted race, and the only capable beings are the Old Ones or the C'tan - Chaos doesn't have the tech or the focus, the Eldar are just too unlikely to have successfully pulled it off (especially engineering the Ethereals), and the Imperium obviously wouldn't. The Deceiver seems the most likely culprit. It also explains why the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Tau are the only idiots in the Galaxy left who use AIs (and the Adeptus at least indoctrinate the gak out of theirs so they won't get betrayed at random times).

P.S. It's the deceiver. It has a few irons in the fire, it's been awake for a while.

I thought the new and improved necrons were based on human blanks made into Pariahs?

RisingPheonix- The Tau sped of growth is down to having a very productive approach, basic control of evolution (the caste system), and being trapped in a warp storm which could have meant that what was a short peroid on the outside was much longer for the Tau. The reason they trusted the ethereal is becasue they can control other tau. The eldar could be responsible, the Tau could easily be an eldar weapon against chaos or maybe just a distraction for an eldar plot. The ethereals appearance was at a time when the whole species had split apart and evolved down different paths. It is entirely possible the ethereals are natural.

As C'tan cannot go near anything warp related it would be very difficult for them to get anywhere near T'au in the middle of a warpstorm.

Actually the Imperium hardly infringes on the culture of world under their command at all. he Ecclesiarchy is [i]veryp/i] lax in how worlds view the Emperor, so long as they do worship him as a diety. For example, some world view him as a night spirit which protects the warriors of the tribe on their hunts, while other civilised worlds go with the more widely accepted view. Even mutants are tolerated, although their treatment varies wildly. I don't recall any tau fluff on their treatment regarding mutants at all.
Basically, the Imperium itself tends to leave worlds well enough alone but for three things.

This is only in the good worlds and as long as you behave yourself and are human. For non humans your dead even if you just try to run away, which doesn't really seem to be the sign of a good force. Humans also have to put up with the imperiums rule whether they like it or not. If you disagree, you shut up or die, I personaly wouldn't want to live there. The ad mech is also very aggressive in restricting people. No new technology, however well it works. If you make something they like they just steal it and lock it up in s vault, and you get nothing.

People keep saying the imperium only want the Tau to leave imperial space but the imperium claims all the space it can controll. Outside of imperial space there isn't really anything, just an empty void. Not really much chance of anything surviving out there.

Kilkrazy wrote:
People can all-encompassingly define it. Read up on the history of moral philosophy.

They can all-encompassingly define what evil means to themselves, not what evil means as a collective summation of how everyone feels. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would be quick to judge Plato's Republic differently. I for one would call it evil, but there's also a lot of things in existence that I consider quite evil that I doubt most people would agree with.

The existence of different systems of ethics does not deny there are ethical distinctions to made.

As such you can either place the various 40K factions on your chosen scale, or say they are all exactly the same. That clearly isn't true.

Orks are Fungus...Mushrooms aren't evil just bad for you if you eat them....Orks just kinda cruise around and look for a good time there is no big picture for them.

4M2A wrote:RisingPheonix- The Tau sped of growth is down to having a very productive approach, basic control of evolution (the caste system), and being trapped in a warp storm which could have meant that what was a short peroid on the outside was much longer for the Tau. The reason they trusted the ethereal is becasue they can control other tau. The eldar could be responsible, the Tau could easily be an eldar weapon against chaos or maybe just a distraction for an eldar plot. The ethereals appearance was at a time when the whole species had split apart and evolved down different paths. It is entirely possible the ethereals are natural.

As C'tan cannot go near anything warp related it would be very difficult for them to get anywhere near T'au in the middle of a warpstorm.

Which isn't much, if an aspect of the Deceiver is already there. Also, the Imperium is currently being manipulated by both the Void Dragon and the Deceiver, and there's no way the Deceiver wins in a head-to-head with the Void Dragon, so it's really really likely he has other plans.

Come on, nothing about the Tau codex suggests in any way the Etherials and their technological progress are natural. Worldwide, a new breed of Tau shows up and unifies the race? All of a sudden, across the planet? Suddenly a technological golden age erupts, where the Tau put this strange new species in charge of their entire destiny, evolve their technology to unheard of levels, and allow these superbeings a level of control that means a Caste Tau would happily slit their own throat if ordered?

As I said, these are the culprits, in order of likelihood:

Deceiver - While they can't interact with the Warp, they've certainly studied it, especially the most cunning and dangerous of the C'tan. Also need new troops.

Eldar - They have the ability to predict the Warp, and if anyone is playing a long game, it's them. Probably the least sinister explanation.

Old Ones - Supposedly all gone and stuff. That being said, this was ALWAYS their approach. Orks and Eldar are probably half useless to them at this point.

Rogue Adeptus Mechanicus - seeing how Tau technology outstrips them, this seems unlikely, but the Adeptus Mechanicus could certainly get the Tau most of the way there. A project to regain some of their lost technology, using a young and vital race, rather than the worn out shell of humanity?

Chaos Gods - Despite the warpstorm, this just really isn't their style. A 'long game' with them is usually like 10 minutes. Plus the Tau philosophy is close to none of them.

Tyranids - Second least likely explanation

Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.

Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.

Hmmm, I always thought the Brainboys were what the Orks called the Old Ones but thats just me.

Snikkyd wrote:

Orks - Yep, there's less likely than 'nids. Not that the galaxy being controlled by a conspiracy of Brain Boyz wouldn't be the most awesome thing ever.

Hmmm, I always thought the Brainboys were what the Orks called the Old Ones but thats just me.

In old fluff, they were snottlings that had found a special fungus that made them super-intelligent, far smarter than humans, tau, anyone. They genetically engineered the race, but the orks were farming the fungus to extinction. Seeing that they were doomed, they gave orks the innate intelligence to make anything they needed, instinctively, and engineered the race to be what they are today.

That's kind of in limbo because the Old Ones now run everything, but I always liked it better. The idea of a small world with brain boyz still on it, where they secretly manage every movement of the galaxy, just to create newer and cooler things for the orks to fight amuses me.

Kilkrazy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@FocusedFire

I agree life imprisonment isn't evil for a criminal however take not that these are not criminals but POWs. Very much normal soldier guys. Also note that this is not imprisonment in a prison where you live out your life in peace. It is hard labour in a mine for the Tau's War effort. These people will be worked to death perhaps not as brutally as Orks or even Imperial prisoners which can only take a matter of weeks or months but it is a grim fate indeed for a man whose only crime is being conscripted into the army.

Since the IoM will not make peace with the Tau, or agree a prisoner exchange, how can the Tau release their POWs? Nor are they responsible for the way the IoM rectuirs its troops.

I don't know about the hard labour, etc. I was under the impression that mining is mainly done by drones and machinery.

Of course if the human POWs want to get out of the camp, they need only declare allegiance to the Tau Federation and they can join one of the human colonies.

You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.

As for your justifications for this treatment of PoWs: that may be true but it just sucks for those guys. My point is that not everything is rainbows and lolipops in Tauland.


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UbiSwanky2 wrote:Orks are Fungus...Mushrooms aren't evil just bad for you if you eat them....Orks just kinda cruise around and look for a good time there is no big picture for them.

All fungus is evil!

>>You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.

Who implies that?

It's hardly going to be the Tau. We know from Imperial sources that they are happy to integrate and arm humans who leave the IoM and join the Federation. That's where Gue'vesa come from.

If it is from Imperial sources we might suspect a little bit of propaganda...?

Kilkrazy wrote:>>You're making an assuption there. There's no getting out of the prison by saying the right things. In fact, it's implied these prisnors well get some of the worst treatment in the Empire because an Etheral dies on Taros.

Who implies that?

It's hardly going to be the Tau. We know from Imperial sources that they are happy to integrate and arm humans who leave the IoM and join the Federation. That's where Gue'vesa come from.

If it is from Imperial sources we might suspect a little bit of propaganda...?

It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style. Why are you so resistant to admitting Tau might have done something unethical? I'll freely admit the the Tau are least evil but that doesn't mean they are incapable of evil. You cannot build an empire without an iron fist and the Tau are indeed an empire.

I'm not.

However using made-up examples proves nothing.

Why not use an example from the Tau Federation codex-- Commander Puretide or whoever it was who used excessive force against an IG column.

We know nothing about the political setup of the Tau Federation except that it is ruled by an oligarchic council and includes a number of federated alien species. It isn't an empire.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style.

You mean the narrator who knows every step by the Imperial forces but is completely in the dark about what the Tau do? Yes, certainly not Imperial biased
BTW it is a mining world, where there is only one job to do: mining. Did you expect the prisoners to do the supervision or administration of the non-prisoners?
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).

4M2A wrote:
This is only in the good worlds and as long as you behave yourself and are human. For non humans your dead even if you just try to run away, which doesn't really seem to be the sign of a good force.

I was addressing your arguement that the Imperium is domineering every aspect of life on their planets, as opposed to the free-for-all Tau. In fact it is the opposite, the Imperium simply can't manage over 1 million worlds, which is why there are such vast differences between the running of one planet and the other. Tau worlds are less in number and easier to micro-manage. I doubt that the worlds under Tau rule get any sort of independancy, even less so than if in the Imperium.

Humans also have to put up with the imperiums rule whether they like it or not. If you disagree, you shut up or die, I personaly wouldn't want to live there.

As opposed to the Tau Empire in which you are a second class citizen? And I suppose if you want to join the Imperium they are okay with that and will leave. They don't want to be in your way after all.

The ad mech is also very aggressive in restricting people. No new technology, however well it works. If you make something they like they just steal it and lock it up in s vault, and you get nothing.

Wrong, STC's are discovered which opens up new technology and the rediscovery of old inventions. In fact they are head over heels for those who discover new pieces of tech, such as SM giving STC gifts to ease diplomatic tensions and in the Guants Ghosts novel there was a team that discovered an STC as a reward were each given governship of an entire planet. But overall the Imperium is in technological decline, however this could be argued that it is almost prefferable to a repeat of the Dark Age of Technology, which I can't make heads nor tails of.

People keep saying the imperium only want the Tau to leave imperial space but the imperium claims all the space it can controll. Outside of imperial space there isn't really anything, just an empty void. Not really much chance of anything surviving out there.

The area outside of Imperium space (which is actually honeycombed rather than a set territory) is simply unexplored, not a dark void.

Kroothawk wrote:
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).

Brightsword was the one who massacred the Vostroyan 9th on Polia was it? I remember reading (from Cities of Death) that he ignored some advice, but I saw no evidence of him being prominently sacked. Can you provide a source please?

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not.

However using made-up examples proves nothing.

Why not use an example from the Tau Federation codex-- Commander Puretide or whoever it was who used excessive force against an IG column.

Which also happens in The Taros campaign. What the heck is the Tau Federation Codex.


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Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's from a 3rd person Narrator. It wasn't meant to be "in-universe" style.

You mean the narrator who knows every step by the Imperial forces but is completely in the dark about what the Tau do? Yes, certainly not Imperial biased
BTW it is a mining world, where there is only one job to do: mining. Did you expect the prisoners to do the supervision or administration of the non-prisoners?
@Kilkrazy: Puretide was the teacher of Farsight and Shadowsun, Farsight the teacher of Brightsword, the latter was sacked for his massacre (and later killed by a Kill Team, if the Gav Thorpe novel is considered canon).

Which also happens in the actual codices of Aliens. Aliens are meant to be kept mysterious because we are not supposed to be able to comprehend them and blah blah.

However, the full political situation and policies of Tau are given at the begining and Force disposition and Causalties are given at the end. The Narrator knows things an Imperial scholar couldn't. The battles follow the imperials because its more dramatic that way.

You act like putting PoWs in a chain gang is the only reasonable thing to do. The ethical thing to do would be just to imprison them. They don't even do that in Guantanamo for God's sake. I'm not even saying I disagree with them. I would have done the same thing. Just saying there were several high roads they could have taken in that war and they didn't. The Fire Caste actually didn't follow their Etheral's wishes posthumusly. He just wanted to let the Imperials retreat uncontested to save lives on both sides. However the Fire Caste got pissed and decided to get some killing done. At this point many were unarmed and unable to walk due to dehydration. If not for the Raptors it would have been a complete massacre.

Also hanging the half-eaten corpse of the Elysian commander from rope is considered dishonourable in some circles.

EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.

The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.

KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.



Where is the evidence of being treated like a second class citizen? I haven't read anything saying that but it keeps being metioned.

When looking at the lifestyles of those living in the Tau empire I would possibly choose to become a second class citizen as the lifestyle would still probably be better.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Brightsword was the one who massacred the Vostroyan 9th on Polia was it? I remember reading (from Cities of Death) that he ignored some advice, but I saw no evidence of him being prominently sacked. Can you provide a source please?

Codex Tau Empire, page 15. Maybe more in the novel "Kill Team", but this novel's plot is a bit weird and POV is a psychopathic human killer with blackouts.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Which also happens in the actual codices of Aliens. Aliens are meant to be kept mysterious because we are not supposed to be able to comprehend them and blah blah.

However, the full political situation and policies of Tau are given at the begining and Force disposition and Causalties are given at the end. The Narrator knows things an Imperial scholar couldn't. The battles follow the imperials because its more dramatic that way.

You act like putting PoWs in a chain gang is the only reasonable thing to do. The ethical thing to do would be just to imprison them. They don't even do that in Guantanamo for God's sake. I'm not even saying I disagree with them. I would have done the same thing. Just saying there were several high roads they could have taken in that war and they didn't. The Fire Caste actually didn't follow their Etheral's wishes posthumusly. He just wanted to let the Imperials retreat uncontested to save lives on both sides. However the Fire Caste got pissed and decided to get some killing done. At this point many were unarmed and unable to walk due to dehydration. If not for the Raptors it would have been a complete massacre.

Also hanging the half-eaten corpse of the Elysian commander from rope is considered dishonourable in some circles.

1.) All Codices and most 40k novels are written strictly from an Imperial POV, because of the dogma "Aliens are too alien for readers to identify with". That's why Tyranids and Tau units are presented with Imperial names (there are no prominent fishes on the desert world of T'au). And the Taros campaign narrator is clearly Imperial, calling the humans fighting for Tau "traitors" and saying that he only knows the casualty numbers of the Imperial forces and can only guess the Tau calualites. Giving some important non-Imperial information (e.g. army composition and exact unit stats from Orca to Crisis Suit) in the non-narrated section is a compromise for the reader's benefit (esp. Tau players) and not in line with the strictly Imperial narration in the main sector.

2.) This is a desert mining planet. And not an overly rich one. Before the war, most humans work in the mines. After the war most humans work in the mines. No word on chain gangs, just that the prisoners work in the mines. Like everyone else has to do on this planet. No lazy life and free lunch in a prison cell, maybe because the planet can't afford to accommodate for so many non-working people. Maybe the human government decided this, as Tau usually don't govern non-Tau planets. We don't know.

3.) 8000 human "traitors" acknowledged by the narrator. And an ethereal who wants to negotiate an uncontested retreat to save lives? How does that fit into the image of the massacre-happy oppressors spread by some people here? Also remember the setting that the planet just wanted to trade with the Tau, and the Imperium wanted to attack Taros and kill the goverment for that.

4M2A wrote:EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.

Dark Age of Technology. Humanity sometimes learns from it's mistakes.

The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.

Impossible. Utterly so. Some worlds are akin to democracy, electing their planetary governers and such. But for an outside power to enforce a different (and to some worlds utterly alien in concept)system of government to over a different worlds when they rely on said worlds just to ensure the uprisings and outside threats are kept in check (which even then they aren't) is simply impossbile. The imperium would collapse overnight through such an attempt. As it is the Imperium is teetering on the verge of defeat, with only their stringent and harsh measures preventing the entirety of humantiy either suffering slavery (Orks/Tau/Chaos/DE) or death (everyone else). The very notion that the feat of bringing democracy to the entirety of the Imperium is possible to even attempt is ludicrously laughable.

KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.

Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.

Where is the evidence of being treated like a second class citizen? I haven't read anything saying that but it keeps being metioned.

When looking at the lifestyles of those living in the Tau empire I would possibly choose to become a second class citizen as the lifestyle would still probably be better.

First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

Dark Age of Technology. Humanity sometimes learns from it's mistakes.

And sometimes they allow their fear to cloud what is really the truth. STCs aren't any safer than any other kind of inverntion the Admech has just become obsessed with them being holy. They can try to improve tehnology without, creating killer robots again. They just need to make sure they need humans to run. Even the Emperor encouraged people to start thinking scientifically again.

Impossible. Utterly so. Some worlds are akin to democracy, electing their planetary governers and such. But for an outside power to enforce a different (and to some worlds utterly alien in concept)system of government to over a different worlds when they rely on said worlds just to ensure the uprisings and outside threats are kept in check (which even then they aren't) is simply impossbile. The imperium would collapse overnight through such an attempt. As it is the Imperium is teetering on the verge of defeat, with only their stringent and harsh measures preventing the entirety of humantiy either suffering slavery (Orks/Tau/Chaos/DE) or death (everyone else). The very notion that the feat of bringing democracy to the entirety of the Imperium is possible to even attempt is ludicrously laughable.

It is possible to have a democracy with restrictions. They would of course have to provide their Tithes and not worship chaos ec... It is possible for them to have an elected governernment for the planet instead of the imperium choosing the governers (as they do on many worlds).

we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.

Well I would say killing civilians is a lot worse than killing PoW. Aside from locking them up for the rest of their lives (and therefore using Tau resources) what are they meant to do with them. The imperium won't take them back, any attempts to meet would result in a fight. In the Case that Kamikazecanuck mentioned the FW disobeyed the ethereals orders. This may show those FW did the wrong thing but the Tau empire intended top let them go.

First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones.

They do have castes but the Ethereals aren't on top. There is no top caste. They have different but equally important roles. While the other 4 castes work the Ethereals make sure the Tau empire continues functioning. We don't voew politicians as better than us, the ethereals fill a similar role. They do stay seperate from the other Tau but that is because their role is very independant. While the Etheareals can use pheremones to control the Tau they rarely do it. The Tau know what will happen if the greater god fails and for most that is enough motivation to do their part in the empire.

This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

My personal view is the second, that their plan for the galaxy is the most "good" but they are in a difficult situation as however they approach many of the other races they will still refuse, even though by joining the Tau life would improve. The imperium intentions and aims are nowhere near so good.

4M2A wrote:
And sometimes they allow their fear to cloud what is really the truth. STCs aren't any safer than any other kind of inverntion the Admech has just become obsessed with them being holy. They can try to improve tehnology without, creating killer robots again. They just need to make sure they need humans to run. Even the Emperor encouraged people to start thinking scientifically again.

Actually, there is the whole theory that the C'Tan Star God (Void Dragon something or other?) is behind the manipulation of Mankinds technological path. But I don't know gak about that, so I can't say. Either way it's obvious that Tau are more technologically advanced. Who's arguing otherwise?

It is possible to have a democracy with restrictions. They would of course have to provide their Tithes and not worship chaos ec... It is possible for them to have an elected governernment for the planet instead of the imperium choosing the governers (as they do on many worlds).

Possible to exist. There are even examples in some systems including those of Ultramar. Utterly impossible to enforce.

Well I would say killing civilians is a lot worse than killing PoW. Aside from locking them up for the rest of their lives (and therefore using Tau resources) what are they meant to do with them. The imperium won't take them back, any attempts to meet would result in a fight. In the Case that Kamikazecanuck mentioned the FW disobeyed the ethereals orders. This may show those FW did the wrong thing but the Tau empire intended top let them go.

*shrug*. You win this one? I haven't read the book so... (Although I would still argue that allowing some to join the Tau Empire and dropping the others off where ever is doable)

They do have castes but the Ethereals aren't on top. There is no top caste. They have different but equally important roles. While the other 4 castes work the Ethereals make sure the Tau empire continues functioning. We don't voew politicians as better than us, the ethereals fill a similar role. They do stay seperate from the other Tau but that is because their role is very independant. While the Etheareals can use pheremones to control the Tau they rarely do it. The Tau know what will happen if the greater god fails and for most that is enough motivation to do their part in the empire.

Please, Ethereals are top dog and it's a fact.

My personal view is the second, that their plan for the galaxy is the most "good" but they are in a difficult situation as however they approach many of the other races they will still refuse, even though by joining the Tau life would improve. The imperium intentions and aims are nowhere near so good.

It can be argued that Imperium was much the same, if not identical, to the Tau in approach before the days of the Great Crusade. However, the Imperium has learnt that it is a harsh galaxy that offers no favours to the lovey-dovey. It's intentions are survival, which is the best it can hope to achieve. Tau will, sooner or later, realise that this is the only option they have as well.

Actually there isn't any fluff saying the Ethereal view themselves as above the other Tau. Many other Tau look up to the Ethereals, and almost worship them, but this is a voluntary thing. You can see from the kroot that joining the Tau empire doesn't mean joining Tau society. They both work together but they way they live and are ruled is entirley seperate. There is no way the Kroot would let themselves be controlled by the ethereals, they view them as nothing more than any other Tau.

The imperiums view to itself was very similar at the start, except they still hated all aliens. If the heresy hadn't occured then the imperium would be a much better place to live in. The religious oppression would e gone and they would try to improve life for themselves. The Tau's willingness to include other races is a huge strength, they have shown that they can trade between species, and transfer benfits without opressing any of the species beliefs.

1. Ethereals are at the top. Those at the top have a history of viewing themselves as better. However, whether they actually do or don't view themselves as better means little, as it is still an oligarchy, which makes your argument that the Imperium should be democratic not only ridiculous, but slightly hypocratic as well.

2. The Kroot are a mercenary race. The Tau frown on this. Those human world under Tau rule? What about them?

3. Before the Great Crusade (during Age of Strife, Technology or even before that) there is little to suggest a xenophobic stance from mankind. I think the Imperium learnt it's lesson not to trust xenos after the Age of Strife.

4. The Tau's idealistic approach will also be their greatest downfall, as the system of rulership they have over their new conquests (if not overseen arbitrarily) will collapse as planets come and go as they please.

4M2A wrote:Actually there isn't any fluff saying the Ethereal view themselves as above the other Tau. Many other Tau look up to the Ethereals, and almost worship them, but this is a voluntary thing. You can see from the kroot that joining the Tau empire doesn't mean joining Tau society. They both work together but they way they live and are ruled is entirley seperate. There is no way the Kroot would let themselves be controlled by the ethereals, they view them as nothing more than any other Tau.

Not to mention that the codex outright states that the Tau Empire is ruled by a council that includes members from all the castes (page 9 of the codex). The Tau government is an Oligarchy with 2 councils, a supreme, ethereal (spritual) council and the mundane (earthly) council with representatives of the various castes.

When people speak about the subjugation of other species, it's crock. Page 8 of the codex even mentions that "alien subjects being granted roles of responsibility within Tau society".... I don't know about you but when a human or other alien species is given direct authority within a society (rather than killed outright), I would not think them too oppressed.

Unarguably, the Tau use trade and diplomacy as a tool of conquest and a means to undermine planetary governments with the intent to enlarge the empire; however, how would you choose to be conquered? By a species that offers advanced technologies that make your life easier and the potential to have a voice in the direction of the society you live in? Or would you rather have a visit by the various other 40k factions that will: eat you, kill you, subjugate you, imprison you, torture you, sacrifice you or a combination thereof?