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1. Do you have sources that you know say this, as I have never seen them say they are better. They are on a seperate level, but not above. Other castes can take part in Tau politics. Once a FW has served in battle for a period of time and risen in the tau armies, it gets the chance to take part in Tau politics. That's not democracy but it's closer than the imperiums got.

2. The Tau don't like the Kroot being mercenaries for other races, which is understandable, as they may end up fighting the Tau. They agreed to become allies (They are more than just mercenaries for the Tau) so they should not be helping the Tau's enemies. The Tau think the Kroots eating habits are savage but no more than a human would think another human from a fuedal world is savage. The Tau empire is badly named, it is more like a collectin of races cooperation. They aren't ruled by one organisation and don't have to live on the same planet. When the a race joins the greater good all they agree to is trading, an alliance and contributing any discoveries to the other races.

3.Fair Point. The difference is the Tau don't use the Blanket approach. They have learned Orks and Nids can't be allied with but they give the more reasonable races a go. Most humans don't mind aliens or only dislike them from what the imperium has told them, its the imperims rulers who are xenophobic.

4. The Tau's idealistic approach works because they know they have to fight and sometimes do the evil thing to get it. The aim is long term so while they will try to reduce casulties they know sometimes you will have to kill innocent people. The point of the greater good is that a few people may have to die but in the end it will be worth it. They try to give people the choice so that they don't have to die.

Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

You are confusing some things.

1.) There is the Tau race. It is organised into 5 castes due to historic necessity, as only the presence of the ethereals prevents the society to degenerate into a bloody civil war (Mont'au). This is a historic fact. The balance is delicate and no Xeno will ever become part of the Tau society as it is ultimately built upon and linked to the Tau race. The caste system and ethereal position has no meaning to a Xeno. While in principle the ethereal caste is ruling, the rule is very low key, as the day-to-day decisions are made by the other castes. Ethereals usually only decide on the direction. As they value altruism, peace and life, their rulership is mild.

2.) There is the Tau Empire. For obvious reasons, ethereals have no rigid control over Xenos. For obvious reasons, due to low numbers, Tau couldn't oppress awhole sector even if they wanted. They don't want it as they want a union of autonomous planets coordinated by the altruistic ideal of "The Greater Good". For further information, I let the Battlefield Gothic rules speak for itself:

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than
appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

3.) Kroot a mercenary race? What is a mercenary race? Ever seen a baby selling its killing skills to anyone? If you make things up, please use at least some common sense.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.

Well, it is okay that you haven't read the Taros book and obviously other background texts on Tau neither. Most Tau-haters haven't. But (Tau-haters) making up stories, telling obvious lies in hope that noone will check and insulting people who actually KNOW the background texts is not a sufficient substitute for competence. And you will have noticed that I check all Tau hatemongering claims and prove them false.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures,

unpleasant measures
nice attempt to put on the pink glasses.
They do intend what they do. Nobody except their own leaders force them.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

I doubt your faith good sir. Vostroyans failed him twice now. Dont go to 3.

4M2A wrote:EF- I wasn't talking about finding an STC, I meant the imperium taking a planet then confiscating their tech becasue it isn't STC, which they do.

The idea that the size of the imperium makes a difference to how it is ruled doesn't work in this situation. The imperium has ample supplies and resources to enforce its rules. Change the laws to give people more rights is possible for the imperium they just don't care about humans. They could easily let the planetary governers make each planet into a democracy, but they won't. They have become so absessed with contiuing the human race that they are making life worse for a very large number of humans.

KamikazeCanuck- So the FW are evil for killing PoW who are soldiers but the imperium is ok when they destroy entire populations, including civilians.

quote]

Did I say that? No. I'm talking about the Tau on their own merits. If you can't defend the Tau without saying "Well Imperium does it" then you've got no arguement.

You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.

Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures

This is what I could think of off the top of my head.

4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.

Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures

This is what I could think of off the top of my head.

1) Yes
2) Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones
3) I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.
4) No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.
5) Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.
6) Depends how they feel that day.
7) What other cultures? There is only the greater Good a concept they hammer home every day.

4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.

Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures

This is what I could think of off the top of my head.

Part of what caused the Damocles mess was the fringe imperial worlds were caught trading with the Tau for advanced manufacturing and farming technology (imperial report, page 20 of the Tau codex)...of course anything that makes an imperial citizen's life less of a burden must be HERESY! so they decided to sweep in and kill everybody.

What caused the Damocles crusade was the Annexation of 20 worlds from the Imperium. You cannot expect The Imperium to not respond to that.

4M2A wrote:
Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures

The IoM did:
1. Tried this pre-heresy.
2. Gathers the lost colonies and I doubt orks, nids, demons, eldar, care if the Tau may allow them to join.
3. Has tough people No, i know typo. IoM offers to freely think they got the best leader and also freely think how to use their life to the imperiums benefits and obviously freely think about new methods to reduce the threat of traitors and xenos.
See, tons of freedom.
4. Gives the planetary government the decision how its run, so exactly the same.......
5. Improves the lifes of citizens as it allows them to strive for maximum effort with minimum tech.
6. Attempts to keep casualties on the opponents side at 110%, but is prepared to spent their own lives
7. Has more culture in a single system than Tau in their whole empire. Meant cultures? So .... millions of worlds = how many cultures
can we think of?

and things the IoM does:

8. shoulders the majority of waaghs, nid fleets, dark crusades, ...
9. keeps the demons at bay.
10. tramples on eldar maiden worlds
11. releases a C'tan
12. blasts plantes to pieces
13. saves littleblue-greys when they would get eaten or disintegrated....
14. have civil wars and survive them without "etherals" as they don't need superpowers, just oridinary fellow to do the right thing..
15. supports thousands of armygroups and fleets and chapters and ......
16. communicates across the galaxy
17. fields psykers
18. survives 10 millenia
19. bio engineered its own supersoldiers
20. isn't afraid of anything and thus never runs away.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What caused the Damocles crusade was the Annexation of 20 worlds from the Imperium. You cannot expect The Imperium to not respond to that.

The imperium is a fluid thing; they lose more worlds in a year to Orks and Tyranids than they ever did to the Tau. Page 8 of the Tau Codex states, "Members of the Water Caste established trade agreements with imperial worlds on the frontier and exchanges of goods and technology were common. Alarmed by the threat of alien contamination, the Administratum readied a suitable response and, almost a century later, the Damocles Crusade smashed into Tau space..."

* alien contamination: emphasis mine. Note there is no mention that the reason for the crusade was the loss of worlds. As always, the imperium's paranoia regarding outside influence is the cause of bitter bloodshed.

"Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearshed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated, and now bore fruit as each imperial Commander declared himself rid of the shackles of the Imperium rule".

P.11

KamikazeCanuck wrote:"Upon a score of worlds, Water Caste envoys whispered long-rehearshed words into willing ears. The seeds of rebellion had long been cultivated, and now bore fruit as each imperial Commander declared himself rid of the shackles of the Imperium rule".

P.11

Obviously told from an imperial perspective.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones

Any alien races have nothing to do with the Castes. Castes are a Tau thing and are not related to any other race, as I and others have already pointed out. They don't even try to get involved in how other races rule their populations.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.

They still have more freedom of though than on imperial planets. It may be ironic but it's still true.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.

The requirements to fit into the greater good are very open. So far the Kroot contribute to the Tau military and thats the only negative that joining the greater good has bought. They recieved better technology, and protection. You can keep your culture and religion, which the imperium don't allow.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.

Well in the times of peace what else do think they will do with it. he imperial citizens trade with the Tau for a reason. They have a far better standard of life.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Depends how they feel that day.

The Tau policy is to keep casulties to a minimum. Whether the FW follow this is nothing to do with how good they are.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
What other cultures? There is only the greater Good a concept they hammer home every day.

The greater good isn't a culture The greater good is an idea and a target. The kroot have a culture and are part of the greater good.

1hadhq-

1. The IoM didn't try to be peacefull pre heresy. Lots of human civilisations were destroyed because they didn't view the imperium as having rule over them. Tau are similar but the difference is Tau let you keep independance.

2. The Orks, nids, daemons won't care and the Tau know this. There are however many much smaller alien races who do care. By including them they will help the greater good by adding new races who can contribute their strengths and potentially save the alien species. As for eldar you casn't be sure about them. They may join purely to reduce eldar loses, on the other hand they may try to manipulate the greater good. I am also sure from the example of humans trading with Tau that a lof of humans would care very much.

3. Free thought within the imperiums boundaries, sounds free to me

4. The planetary governers still have to follow imperial standards- No heretical tech, no other religion, no xenos

5. Oh i get it- After working a 20 hour day in the factories the citizens can go back to their cupboard sized rooms and watch censored entertainment, while feeling all happy inside, knowing they just contributed to the extermination of another species- right?

6. Yeah when you kill more of your own men than the enimies your doing it wrong. On the plus side innocent alien citizens make great target practice.

7. So there are a lot of cultures in the galaxy, ok so how does that make Tau any worse. All Tau do is allow people to contiu thinking what they want and worshiping who thy like (except chaos). Not everyone is that bothered by the emperor.

8. Right so fighting a lot makes the good- nah doesn't do it for me. If they weren't around all these things would be killing each other so they would still end up dead. If the imperium wasn't around they wouldn't be killing inocent peole so it doesn't really matter.
9. same as above
10. Yep and they are doing a good job too. Thats 15 planets destroyed this month.
11. great we all know how fun they are.
12. Thats a perfect example of long term planning there.
13. yeah because we all know how much we would hate to loose them.
14. Yeah and by doing that you created a very large group of rogue space marines. Oh and aren't they the one who now worship chaos, yep thought so.
15. So your big?
16. Ok and we can communicate without killing 1000 people a day to do it.
17. Are they the psyker who end up summoning daemons if the up. I think we are better of without them.
18. Only just. According to GW you have been on the brink of destruction for 10 milenia.
19. Our tech is still better than yours
20. Except when you see our shiny new peice of gear then all the nearby planets forget about the emperor and start being extra friendly.

4M2A wrote:You do have to look at the situation. I have said that I don't think Tau are innocent, they have killed people. Any perfectly innocent race is going to end up dead very fast. Instead Tau try to do the best they can.

Lets go throught the list of things the Tau Empire does that the imperium don't:
1. Tries to resolve disagreements peacefully
2. Allows all races to join and treats them equally.
3. Lets people have freedom of though.
4. Gives people a decision on how their planet is run.
5. Strives to improve the life of citizens by advancing technology.
6. When in war attempts to keep casulties on both sides to a minimum.
7. Allows other cultures

This is what I could think of off the top of my head.

Agree in all points. Everything can be supported by official background material.
Nice to have a post based on facts, not on wild speculations obviously contradicting official background (grmlcastediscussiongrml).

4M2A wrote:

1. The IoM didn't try to be peacefull pre heresy. Lots of human civilisations were destroyed because they didn't view the imperium as having rule over them. Tau are similar but the difference is Tau let you keep independance.

2. The Orks, nids, daemons won't care and the Tau know this. There are however many much smaller alien races who do care. By including them they will help the greater good by adding new races who can contribute their strengths and potentially save the alien species. As for eldar you can't be sure about them. They may join purely to reduce eldar loses, on the other hand they may try to manipulate the greater good. I am also sure from the example of humans trading with Tau that a lof of humans would care very much.

3. Free thought within the imperiums boundaries, sounds free to me

4. The planetary governers still have to follow imperial standards- No heretical tech, no other religion, no xenos

5. Oh i get it- After working a 20 hour day in the factories the citizens can go back to their cupboard sized rooms and watch censored entertainment, while feeling all happy inside, knowing they just contributed to the extermination of another species- right?

6. Yeah when you kill more of your own men than the enimies your doing it wrong. On the plus side innocent alien citizens make great target practice.

7. So there are a lot of cultures in the galaxy, ok so how does that make Tau any worse. All Tau do is allow people to contiu thinking what they want and worshiping who thy like (except chaos). Not everyone is that bothered by the emperor.

8. Right so fighting a lot makes the good- nah doesn't do it for me. If they weren't around all these things would be killing each other so they would still end up dead. If the imperium wasn't around they wouldn't be killing innocent people so it doesn't really matter.
9. same as above
10. Yep and they are doing a good job too. Thats 15 planets destroyed this month.
11. great we all know how fun they are.
12. Thats a perfect example of long term planning there.
13. yeah because we all know how much we would hate to loose them.
14. Yeah and by doing that you created a very large group of rogue space marines. Oh and aren't they the one who now worship chaos, yep thought so.
15. So your big?
16. Ok and we can communicate without killing 1000 people a day to do it.
17. Are they the psyker who end up summoning daemons if the up. I think we are better of without them.
18. Only just. According to GW you have been on the brink of destruction for 10 milenia.
19. Our tech is still better than yours
20. Except when you see our shiny new peice of gear then all the nearby planets forget about the emperor and start being extra friendly.

1. The HH disagrees. It was possible to bring a world into compliance without a fight. But it was up to the leader of the expedition.
Most of them soldiers. Send your fire caste to do the talking and we'll see how peaceful that ends.....

2. So the numerous races won't join. Now, those few just barely to spot minor races may contribute how?
Military strenght? Production? Must be culture then....

3. yep. But if youre dumb, does it matter if youre free in your thougths?

4. Standards are always there.

5. Have a cookie.

6. The IoM hits its targets. Remember, barrage weapons aren't intended to hit a single target precisely. So its not our fault if theyre standing in the path of our firing solution.

7. What? Can't worship chaos and still call that a free choice? The point i did try to mae, was the IoM consists of soo many worlds
its impossible to share a single culture and thus we have multiples of them.

8./9. Without the IoM, they have to focus on the few accessible targets...... bazillions of orks and nids fighting their wars on sept worlds,
lets see if they can improve the lives of the citizens too..

10. only 15? We did not so well it seems.

11.

12. nobody beats the administratum at planning.

13. maybe.

14. the traitors will be dealt with. But the IoM didn't fall. How many farsights can the Tau survive as 'empire'.?

15. people say so.

16. The IoM could also communicate in a small sector without astropaths.

17. Your choice. Sometimes an inbreed ability cannot be ignored.

18. But we will stay for another 10 millenia, as per the rulebook its our destiny to drive the darkness back. Sorry, you have to live with us....

19. in your dreams. The mechanicum forgot more than Tau could imagine. Our guardsmen have TL markerlights! HA.

20. Were not so easy to distract from your real aims. The Emperor is unforgettable.
But IMO most of us are friendly. But extra?

Very well, The saintly Tau have never done anything wrong ever. Case closed.

Kroothawk wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:First of all, there is the caste system. Etherals on top, with several different levels of Tau castes, then the xenos auxilliaries outside of this sphere. They don't even have a chance at political say let alone power. Then there is the fact that the Tau Empire is an Oligarchy run by the Ethereals, who quite possibly exert their control over other Tau through chemical pheremones. This flies in the face of Tau fanboys, like KrootHawk. However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures, which hurts Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

You are confusing some things.

1.) There is the Tau race. It is organised into 5 castes due to historic necessity, as only the presence of the ethereals prevents the society to degenerate into a bloody civil war (Mont'au). This is a historic fact. The balance is delicate and no Xeno will ever become part of the Tau society as it is ultimately built upon and linked to the Tau race. The caste system and ethereal position has no meaning to a Xeno. While in principle the ethereal caste is ruling, the rule is very low key, as the day-to-day decisions are made by the other castes. Ethereals usually only decide on the direction. As they value altruism, peace and life, their rulership is mild.

Okay. Still nothing like a democracy though, which makes 4M2A's claim of Imperium fail at democracy even less sensical.

2.) There is the Tau Empire. For obvious reasons, ethereals have no rigid control over Xenos. For obvious reasons, due to low numbers, Tau couldn't oppress awhole sector even if they wanted. They don't want it as they want a union of autonomous planets coordinated by the altruistic ideal of "The Greater Good". For further information, I let the Battlefield Gothic rules speak for itself:

It is you who are claiming that the Tau consider their castes as seperate from the Tau Empire.

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than
appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.

3.) Kroot a mercenary race? What is a mercenary race? Ever seen a baby selling its killing skills to anyone? If you make things up, please use at least some common sense.

Come on. Are you really going to argue this? I really can't be bothered to explain this to you as you are obviously going to ignore and talk past it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Well, we're just trying to debunk those Tau fanboys by pointing out that the differences between Tau and Imperium really aren't as large as you'd like to think.

Well, it is okay that you haven't read the Taros book and obviously other background texts on Tau neither. Most Tau-haters haven't. But (Tau-haters) making up stories, telling obvious lies in hope that noone will check and insulting people who actually KNOW the background texts is not a sufficient substitute for competence. And you will have noticed that I check all Tau hatemongering claims and prove them false.

Your high horse. Get off it.

1hadhq wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
However, it can be argued that the Tau intentions are honorable enough, and it is the grimdarkness of the 40k galaxy that has forced them to take unpleasant measures,

unpleasant measures
nice attempt to put on the pink glasses.
They do intend what they do. Nobody except their own leaders force them.

Like the Imperium?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Imperium fanboys, such as 1hadhq.

I doubt your faith good sir. Vostroyans failed him twice now. Dont go to 3.

Vostroyans got off a self-destructive bandwagon who was going to lose the game for all Imperials. If you want your blaze of glory, fine, but don't let personal issues with other posters direct your actions in a game. If you look now, your death has left the Vostroyans in a posisition of strength with the Eldar. The Cadians are the ones who actually hurt you, and they're looking pretty cosy with Chaos and Orks at the moment.

4M2A wrote:

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Yes but I don't know how equal the "alien" races are. Surely they must exist in yet another caste and that caste could never be seen as being on par with the other 5 historical Tau ones

Any alien races have nothing to do with the Castes. Castes are a Tau thing and are not related to any other race, as I and others have already pointed out. They don't even try to get involved in how other races rule their populations.

Really? I honestly can't see the Tau subjugating a race and them leaving those subjugated in charge.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
I assume you mean thought. That's a little ironic considereing Etherals have evolved to naturall mind-control the other castes.

They still have more freedom of though than on imperial planets. It may be ironic but it's still true.

Actually, no. Not if they're human anyway.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
No. You'll run your planet according to what's best for the greater good. In fact The imperium practices far greater tolerance in the way a planet is run. All forms of goverment exist within the Imperium: Theocracy, Communism, Fascism, Democracy, Anarchy. They don't care as long as you pay your taxes.

The requirements to fit into the greater good are very open. So far the Kroot contribute to the Tau military and thats the only negative that joining the greater good has bought. They recieved better technology, and protection. You can keep your culture and religion, which the imperium don't allow.

Actually, the Imperium does allow cultures to keep both their culture and religion. The only requirements are:
1# Pay your taxes (as Kamikaze wrote), either in Tanks, Munitions or Men.
2# Incorporate the Emperor into your religeon. They don't care how you view him as a diety, whether the natives view him as an ancestrial spirit or the more orthodox Ecclesiarchial line (as demonstrated in Faith and Fire, as well as the WH codex), so long as he is somehow included.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Strives to advance technology period. Citizens may benefit may not.

Well in the times of peace what else do think they will do with it. he imperial citizens trade with the Tau for a reason. They have a far better standard of life.

True. Better standard of life doesn't neccesarily make them "gooder" though. Just more attractive *cough* subersive.

KamikazeCanuck Wrote
Depends how they feel that day.

The Tau policy is to keep casulties to a minimum. Whether the FW follow this is nothing to do with how good they are.

This is also the Eldar policy. Your point being?

Wow, there is a lot new text. I'll get back.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Emperors Faithful wrote:That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.

Repeat after me: "without subjugating them"
Again: "without subjugating them"
Again: "without subjugating them"
Got it?
No? Okay, again ...

Well then what exactly are they doing? It sounds a lot like fething subjugation.

EF- No it sounds a lot like allying and working together. This may be hard for some of the more fantical imperials to understand but sometimes you can work with someone without commanding them.

Okay. Still nothing like a democracy though, which makes 4M2A's claim of Imperium fail at democracy even less sensical.

No the Tau let you rule your planet how you like. You have the choice to run a democracy, just because the Tau don't doesn't mean you can't as a member of the greater good.

It is you who are claiming that the Tau consider their castes as seperate from the Tau Empire.

Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.

That sounds just like the Imperium. I will hand you that second bit though. Even though the Tau is advancing aggressively, they at least give others a chance at subjugation rather than annhilation.

Yes that bit is similar. The differnce is small but very important. The Tau offering peace first is a huge thing. When entering the greater good you ally with the Tau but don't really join their empire. Unlike the IoM you are free to live as your species wishes. All that is required is that you help to improve live for the for the other members if you have the means to do so.

Come on. Are you really going to argue this? I really can't be bothered to explain this to you as you are obviously going to ignore and talk past it.

The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.

Actually, no. Not if they're human anyway.

Ermm yes they do. If a human disagrees with the imperium hhe must shut up or die. A tau actually has the chance to change someting. It may be difficult to get onto the Tau council but it's possible.

Actually, the Imperium does allow cultures to keep both their culture and religion. The only requirements are:
1# Pay your taxes (as Kamikaze wrote), either in Tanks, Munitions or Men.
2# Incorporate the Emperor into your religeon. They don't care how you view him as a diety, whether the natives view him as an ancestrial spirit or the more orthodox Ecclesiarchial line (as demonstrated in Faith and Fire, as well as the WH codex), so long as he is somehow included.

They are forced to hate xenos, they must loose any kind of technology which isn't approved by a organisation that thinks technology is holy. They must worship the emperor, in a suitable. The ecclesiarchy is very inconsistent. Their have been many occasions when they decide a religion is unacceptable even if it does feature the emperor. The religion of fenris features the emperor but they still got challenged and attacked. Being forced to worship someone who you think is a man will be very hard for some planets. it's not just saying yes I worship the emperor. The imperial religion is very dominating.

True. Better standard of life doesn't neccesarily make them "gooder" though. Just more attractive *cough* subersive.

But actively working to improve standards of life does.

This is also the Eldar policy. Your point being?

Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.

KamikazeCanuck- No one has said that. Even the people defending the Tau have said that they do sometimes do evil things, the difference is they actually care about it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Vostroyans got off a self-destructive bandwagon who was going to lose the game for all Imperials. If you want your blaze of glory, fine, but don't let personal issues with other posters direct your actions in a game. If you look now, your death has left the Vostroyans in a posisition of strength with the Eldar. The Cadians are the ones who actually hurt you, and they're looking pretty cosy with Chaos and Orks at the moment.

Topic?

So he admits his pact with xenos and calls those refuting it tainted......
Maybe keep it a bit more in line with the background 40k ?



@Kroothawk: maybe repeat those designer's notes some more and EF will listen.

BTW, where are they from and who was the designer?

Youtube:
Tau the least evil ha!

Made by GW- no
Ever confirmed as official background- no
Unbiased point of view- no
In line with all other Tau fluff- no

I think we can ignore this (this isn't the first time someone bought this up and the same things have been said each time).

4M2A wrote:Made by GW- no
Ever confirmed as official background- no
Unbiased point of view- no
In line with all other Tau fluff- no

I think we can ignore this (this isn't the first time someone bought this up and the same things have been said each time).

I wish the Tau army worked like they do in the game, I wouldn't lose so much.

KamikazeCanuck- No one has said that. Even the people defending the Tau have said that they do sometimes do evil things, the difference is they actually care about it.

Actually sometimes human beings feel bad about the things they've done too.

Let me explain why this discussion has passed into the realm of collosal idiocy: If there's something that portrays the Tau in a positive light you guys will hold that up. But if something portrays them in a negative light, even if its on the same page, you'll simply dismiss that as imperial propaganda. So that's a conversation going no where fast.

1hadhq wrote:BTW, where are they from and who was the designer?

When the GW website still had content, it was custom to add designer notes for each release and keep them on the website.
They were plain for everyone to see until the website was relaunched as a pure webstore almost without content.
In this case, Andy Chambers, Pete Haines and Graham McNeill are listed as the authors of the first Tau Codex, so they are the designers.

Space Marine wrote:Youtube:Tau the least evil ha!

40k background: This planet was never under Tau rulership. PC game Tau scenario ending: This planet is under Tau rulership.
Nice try, but caught redhanded

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Let me explain why this discussion has passed into the realm of collosal idiocy: If there's something that portrays the Tau in a positive light you guys will hold that up. But if something portrays them in a negative light, even if its on the same page, you'll simply dismiss that as imperial propaganda. So that's a conversation going no where fast.

I think the discussion is so weird because one side doesn't know the background, doesn't care, lightheartedly produces some insults (e.g. by adding a negation to an official statement -> "Tau do subjugate" or by posting the first insult they can imagine -> "damn communists" in USA or "bloody nazis" in Europe ). They never care to give evidence, because they haven't read any background texts or know that there is no evidence. This makes Tau threads always an unbalanced discussion. But sniffing at my ethereal's socks, I keep cool and disprove all false statements.

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe take FF as an example of contributing to a thread?

Wow, that was unexpected, Thanks for the compliment 1hadhq.


@EF and 1hadhq

Sorry, I didn't get back to your replies more quickly. I had some projects to work on and by the time that I got back the thread had progressed past the point of replying.


@EF, 1hadhq, Kroothawk, 4M2A, and anyone else participating in the discussion.

I have been scanning the thread and it now seem s to be going in a round robin. I think it might help if each person posts the reason for their positions without mentioning any of the 40K races/armies. Just state your position on the concept of right and wrong and then how you feel it should or should not be applied to the 40K universe. Once each of us has posted their stance then the conversation might moved past the Tau Bad, Tau Good, Tree Pretty argument and make heasway into something that might give all of us perspective and a greater understanding of the concept of living/dealing with a universe full of different sentient species.

I'll Start,

IMO, the concepts of good and evil is subjective and from a scientific viewpoint solely a human concept until we have evidence to indicate otherwise. This is the reason I have not voted in the poll.

Now as to applying our concepts upon a fictional structure/work, there are many variables that have to be addressed and it will help in understanding that where one will seek to impose the known quantity of human values there are others who will will eschew doing such. The real debate here is why we make the choice to apply our set of values or not, to what degree they should be applied, and the sub arguments of whether these values are solely a human concept and maybe whether they even exist.

As I said already, I belive the concepts to be subjective to time and circumstance and thouroughly human. Becaue the concept is a human one then the humans are responsible for bringing the concept of Evil into the Galaxy and have tainted the 40K universe with what they consider evil by judging everything that they encounter by the concept of good and bad.

That should be enough for now, anybody else?

Just fancy talk for the lame cop-out that is Relativism.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Just fancy talk for the lame cop-out that is Relativism.

Criticizing, without posting your stance.

Is this a case where you can dish it out but can't take it?

I go second.
My position is the one of the designers of the Tau race.
A simple but comfortable position, as I don't have to make up false evidence to prove my point