Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun.
I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".

@4M2A:
1. In regards to the games, are the BL books also confirmed as cannon?

4M2A wrote:EF- No it sounds a lot like allying and working together. This may be hard for some of the more fantical imperials to understand but sometimes you can work with someone without commanding them.

Subjugation (becuase there really isn't another word for it, apart from maybe occupation) is hardly capable of being called 'working together'. True, there are genuine cases of Tau allying with other races, but there are also cases where the Tau either bully or outright subjugate other species.

No the Tau let you rule your planet how you like. You have the choice to run a democracy, just because the Tau don't doesn't mean you can't as a member of the greater good.

Well, short of leaving the Tau Empire yes. So...just like the Imperium then?

Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.

But they are a part of the Tau Empire, and I doubt they would be allowed to leave even if they wanted to.

Yes that bit is similar. The differnce is small but very important. The Tau offering peace first is a huge thing. When entering the greater good you ally with the Tau but don't really join their empire. Unlike the IoM you are free to live as your species wishes. All that is required is that you help to improve live for the for the other members if you have the means to do so.

Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.

The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.

If there is anything that fits into the category of a Mercenary race it is the Kroot. Or the lecxhiquotl thingys.

Ermm yes they do. If a human disagrees with the imperium hhe must shut up or die. A tau actually has the chance to change someting. It may be difficult to get onto the Tau council but it's possible.

Utterly impossible for a Non-Tau I'm sure (there is absolutely no record of alien races having a particular say in how the Empire is run through the Tau council), and impossible to get a seat on the Ethereal council if you're not an Ethereal.

They are forced to hate xenos, they must loose any kind of technology which isn't approved by a organisation that thinks technology is holy. They must worship the emperor, in a suitable. The ecclesiarchy is very inconsistent. Their have been many occasions when they decide a religion is unacceptable even if it does feature the emperor. The religion of fenris features the emperor but they still got challenged and attacked. Being forced to worship someone who you think is a man will be very hard for some planets. it's not just saying yes I worship the emperor. The imperial religion is very dominating.

No. The Imperial religeon is very lax as far as religeons go (Tau having no real religeon at all can be considered an advantage here...or maybe the Greater Good counts). Heresy is a different matter, as that involves the dire threat of Chaos, something the Tau don't have too much experience with. Let's say the Imperium came to Earth. Would they side with one religeon (or introduce their own) and wipe out all others? No. They would send missionaries who learn the depths of the cultures and religeons, and encourage the populace to incorporate the Emperor as either the head of or a vital part of each religeon. Simply replace Jesus/Vishnu/Allah/God/The Holy Spirit or any of these with 'The Emperor' and the Ecclesiarchy views it as a job well done.

P.S. The Religeon of Fenris viewed the Emperor as a man didn't it? The Ecclesiarchy has never gotten on well with Sm becuase of this.

But actively working to improve standards of life does.

Vile xenos using subversive tactics as a means to an end. (Okay, you got me there)

Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.

Reducing ones casualties doesn't neccessarily make a race 'good'. As Dark Eldar aim to reduce casualties (but maximise captures) becuase it suits them. Tau trying to minimise their casualties makes the no different from the other 'sane' races.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun.
I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".

So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?

4M2A wrote:Not really. The caste system is tau culture, the greater good doesn't force you to join the tau culture. The kroot have no castes, and rule themselves.

In the Tau codex(May only be in the first codex)It is stated that one of the reasons that the Tau judged the kroot to be compatable is that they have a caste structure similar in some ways to the Tau's.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.

Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.

4M2A wrote:The Kroot become mercenaries for a unusual reason. They don't really have a warrior society, and they don't fight for the money. Becoming mercenaries is just funds the expedition. They go out into the galaxy and fight because their species would die if they didn't.

While it is true that one of the reasons the Kroot hire themselves out to fight is for greater access to a larger variety of DNA, the primary reason they do so is to gain access to technology that they do not have the creativity to develop themselves. They are great mimics but not creative, also, they trade mercenary dkills for industrially produced goods so that they may live away from the technology/city life that they blame for making them to weak to fight off the orks.

4M2A wrote:Eldar policy is to save Eldar lives above all others. They will try to stop human death but it's really not that important to them. They have a very selfish view of the world and view themselves superior to everything. This is why they are on the good/ neutral boundary. They will save lives, if it suits them.

The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's

focusedfire wrote:While it is true that one of the reasons the Kroot hire themselves out to fight is for greater access to a larger variety of DNA, the primary reason they do so is to gain access to technology that they do not have the creativity to develop themselves. They are great mimics but not creative, also, they trade mercenary dkills for industrially produced goods so that they may live away from the technology/city life that they blame for making them to weak to fight off the orks.

So the main reason is go get technology, the lesser reason is to survive as a race?
They are called carnivores for a reason, not junk dealers.

focusedfire wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@FF: Oh, but I'm having so much fun.
I see Imperium, Eldar and Tau as the "Top 3". None are much better than the other in their own way. Eldar and Imperium being about equal, with Tau leading, but only out of a naive approach that is already starting to darken or was perhaps corrupt from the beggining (Farsight, Pheremone control ect). Personally I found the Tau "Too Good to be true".

So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?

There really is no point to this thread if we can't do so. *ahem* I think.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Allying with Tau ussually means joining their Empire. Some species make pacts of neutrality, but you can bet this will only last until the Tau have the option to arrive en masse. Much of the time it really is 'Join or die'. The Imperium is more along the lines of 'Leave us alone and/or die'.

Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.

Still seems to be a means to an end, not a pure result of idealisitc doctrine. Besides, I wasn't trying to argue that Tau don't use diplomacy, I was arguing that refusing to join the Tau Empire (when offered) is not an option.

The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.

I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.

(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)

Kroothawk wrote:
So the main reason is go get technology, the lesser reason is to survive as a race?
They are called carnivores for a reason, not junk dealers.

First, neversaid that they were junk dealers I said that they were merc's for hire. Wierd that you confuse the two.

Next, Get out your copy of the First codex and the White Dwarf that covered the Kroot Merc list. While the Background does leave a lot open it is said that the kroot trade their services for supplies but never mentions anything anout trading services to get at a greater variety of DNA. Your the one that insisted that we go off of established fluff. Your comments about the kroots motivation in hiring themselves out is pure conjecture from the established GW back story.

focusedfire wrote:So, I take it that you are of the thought that it is ok to apply the human concepts of good and evil to a non-human species. Is that correct?

Emperors Faithful wrote: There really is no point to this thread if we can't do so. *ahem* I think.

The point is to make your positions clear without mentioning any of the 40K races. This would give clarity as to what is actually being arguesd as opposed to the circular arguement that is currently happening. Once everyone make their position clear then go back to debating from a factional perspective with the clarity of knowing what your opponent is really trying to argue.

focusedfire wrote: Incorrect, the Tau have a standing policy of diplomacy first. A tactic that the Fire Caste accepts after the successes in the Damoclese Gulg Annexation. The Water caste accomplished peacefully in a single lifetime(20-40 years), what the Fire Caste admits would have taken many lifetime just to counquer, much less subjugate.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Still seems to be a means to an end, not a pure result of idealisitc doctrine. Besides, I wasn't trying to argue that Tau don't use diplomacy, I was arguing that refusing to join the Tau Empire (when offered) is not an option.

And I was pointing out that there is more than just the Fire Castes Ideology and the Tau's military is kept in chec by mutual need where as the Imperium uses a bueacracy divided upon itself to wage war against itself just to hold their military in check. Basically the humans do not know how to live without the presence of war.

focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.

(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)

Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.

Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just lotalist and chaos, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books

Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?

I voted Nids.. like others on here, I feel as if they are acting on instinct and they can't help but swallow up whole planets.

Are rabbits evil because they like to eat carrots out of the vegetable garden.. nope, they're just hungry!

focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.

(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)

Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.

Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just loyalist and traitor, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books

Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?

focusedfire wrote:First, neversaid that they were junk dealers I said that they were merc.s for hire. Wierd that you con fuse the two.

Next, Get out your copy of the First codex and the White Dwarf that covered the Kroot Merc list. While the Background does leave a lot open it is said that the kroot trade their services for supplies but never mentions anything anout trading services to get at a greater variety of DNA. Your the one that insisted that we go off of established fluff. Your comments about the kroots motivation in hiring themselves out is pure conjecture from the established GW back story.

Here the relevant quotes from the major official background text on Kroot, the "Index Xenos: The Kroot" by Graham McNeill, Codex Co-author.

By far the most odious habit of the Kroot is their practice of eating the flesh of the dead. In battle, this leads them to ritually devour the corpses of those they have killed, and almost nothing is beyond their tastes. The Kroot digestive system is extremely efficient, capable of breaking down almost any organic material into an energy form that can be stored in specialised organs scattered throughout their bodies called nymunes. Should anything inorganic and indigestible be consumed, the Kroot must regurgitate it, with considerable discomfort. However the strangest quirk of Kroot digestion is their ability to extract potentially useful strands of their food's DNA. Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors have long been aware that much of the double helix structure of DNA is in fact blank. Used to separate those areas that do contain genetic information. The Kroot have somehow inherited the ability to incorporate useful DNA codes into their own genetic make up. Larger Kroot, called Shapers, who have an instinctive understanding of this process, can direct their kindred to consume certain prey in order that in successive generations, they may take on elements of those genes.(...)

Further, less violent contact has since made with the Kroot; indeed some mercenary Kindreds have been known to fight alongside Imperial forces in return for weapons and food.(...)

However, not all Warspheres serve with the Tau fleets. On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.

focusedfire wrote:

focusedfire wrote:The Eldar have no set policy, Each craftworld is its own entity, much more so than the SM chapters. IMO,This is one of the reasons Eldar deserve Craft world specific codices if they are going to do such for the SM's.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I've seen nothing, no unit difference or anything of the sort that would suggest a different codex for every Craftworld is needed. I think the current codex (minus some imbalances/rules left behind) is quite satisfactory, as it allows players to truly represent an Eldar army from any craftworld simply from the choice of units. For example, Craftworld Alaitoc does have bikes, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld, you'll base your army around a core of pathfinders. Saim-Hann do have aspect shrines, but if you want to go with the theme of the Craftworld you go with bikes, Shining Spears and other flying stuff. That said, I'm not a fan of seperate codexes for almost identical SM (bar one or two units) either. Although I would admit that SW are an exception.

(BTW, if I was to collect any Xenos army I would be all over Saim-Hann like a- like a...something that goes over something else very quickly.)

Yet you support separate marine codices for armies that are essentially the exact same thing. The following are reasons why the Eldar craftworlds are at least as deserving of their own seperate codices if not more so than the SM's:
1)Each Eldar Craft world is its own seperate entity and answers to none of the others.
2)Each craftworld makes use of forces that differ greatly in comparisin to the others(Iyanden Wraith Army, Saim Hann Bikers, Ulthwe Battle psykers and Biel-Tan aspect warrior armies show a much greater variation in viable stand alone armies than the various SM chapters)
3)each craft world has its own seperate history since the Fall(Which predates the great crusade)
4)Fluff even has each craftworld with its own goals and steadily diverging technologies.

Now if they combine all of the separate SM chapters into one book and run just lotalist and chaos, then I would be content with just the Eldar & Dark Eldar books

Heck I'd be happy with the Eldar book if they just made each Craftworld viable and competitive again. If they went with differing FOC's depending upon the Craftworld specific HQ's while making sure each army was ballanced, viable and left room for generic lists I would be ecstatic.
Do you really think the GW will put that much effort into one book?

First off, read the bold print.
The only SM chapter that actually may deserve it's own codex is the Space Wolf Codex. This is becuase they are just simply too enourmously different from any other chapter and only share 1 or 2 of the same units.

1) Like the SM? (bar sucessor chapters perhaps)
2) Like the SM? (White Scars = Bikes, BA = Assualt Squads, DA = Termies, Salamanders = Flamer/Melta)
3) True dat.
4) Own goals? Yes (To ensure their survival). Diverging technologies?

Secondly, are you saying that an Iyaden Wraithguard/Lord heavy army is not competitive?
How about Warlock squad on Saim-Hann bikes?
A Biel Tan aspect warrior list?
None of these are viable?

1hadhq wrote:Its simply unneccessary to split up the Eldar. They kept them to 2 codices, and as we hear about a DE relaunch and we will see how much GW invests into DE.
After this, there may be a debate if/or not GW should keep codices or split them. But now, we don't even know if DE are worth
the effort and I am not sure if the possible changes to the =I= codices are good or deserve to be burned as heretical.

Was working from rant perspective that GW Failed in making Craftworlds come alive in the current codex. I liked the old Craftworld Eldar, yes CTM was utter cheddar and is not what I am talking about. I like the craftworld specific force org charts and feel that they could be done again in a balanced manner. Thing is, before GW does that they would split the book in order to sell more models with less production time invested in each.

As far as your personal take it helps in understanding your POV, thank you.

Kroothawk wrote:Here the relevant quotes from the major official background text on Kroot, the "Index Xenos: The Kroot" by Graham McNeill, Codex Co-author.

Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.

This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
First off, read the bold print.
The only SM chapter that actually may deserve it's own codex is the Space Wolf Codex. This is becuase they are just simply too enourmously different from any other chapter and only share 1 or 2 of the same units.

1) Like the SM? (bar sucessor chapters perhaps)
2) Like the SM? (White Scars = Bikes, BA = Assualt Squads, DA = Termies, Salamanders = Flamer/Melta)
3) True dat.
4) Own goals? Yes (To ensure their survival). Diverging technologies?

Secondly, are you saying that an Iyaden Wraithguard/Lord heavy army is not competitive?
How about Warlock squad on Saim-Hann bikes?
A Biel Tan aspect warrior list?
None of these are viable?

Sorry, the second thing I've missed today. Think its time to get my eyes checked again.

Also, I agree about the Space Wolves

1)More so
2)Much more so
3)Yay agreement
4)Biel-tan wants to resurrect the lost Empire and will declare war on anyone for touching a maiden world(Even other craftworld). Ulthwe's Goals are unknown, even by other Eldar, Harlequins just want to perform, ect...Each craftworld/group starting to get their own specialty units with unique natural abilities(Eldar tech is based of of organic tech) and weapons (Spear of Twilight, Eldrads staff)

As I said to 1hadhq- I just wish that they would bring back the seperate craftworld force organization lists where you could build lists that were craftworld unique. My complaint is that I feel that GW won't do such.

Eldar have viable lists and never said otherwise, just that they don't really reflect the craftworlds. Saim Hann is more than warlocks on jetbikes, currently the Biel-Tan list is more of a mech list and I haven't heard of Iyanden Eldzilla doing much lately.

The Tau want a empire of peace through the galaxy...with them on top.

The Imperials believe it is mankinds birthright to rule the stars- cleanse them all.

I'd say the Imperials are more moral here- at least they're being straightforward. The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight

^ I like this guy.

focusedfire wrote:
Sorry, the second thing I've missed today. Think its time to get my eyes checked again.

Also, I agree about the Space Wolves

1)More so
2)Much more so
3)Yay agreement
4)Biel-tan wants to resurrect the lost Empire and will declare war on anyone for touching a maiden world(Even other craftworld). Ulthwe's Goals are unknown, even by other Eldar, Harlequins just want to perform, ect...Each craftworld/group starting to get their own specialty units with unique natural abilities(Eldar tech is based of of organic tech) and weapons (Spear of Twilight, Eldrads staff)

As I said to 1hadhq- I just wish that they would bring back the seperate craftworld force organization lists where you could build lists that were craftworld unique. My complaint is that I feel that GW won't do such.

Eldar have viable lists and never said otherwise, just that they don't really reflect the craftworlds. Saim Hann is more than warlocks on jetbikes, currently the Biel-Tan list is more of a mech list and I haven't heard of Iyanden Eldzilla doing much lately.

No probs. You can blame my grammmah if you want.

1) True, no higher authority for them. However, apart from perhaps the Saim-Hann there is little to suggest an inherent rivalry between the Craftworlds as there is between many (if not most) SM chapters. It really can be argued either way.
2) How so? How is a Saim-Hann Bike army any more different from an Alaitoc Pathfinder than how a White Scars Biker army is different from a Scout based army?
3) Yay! X]
4) I agreed with you that there are different goals (although the Biel-Tann seem to be the only ones that believe in a resurgance while the others are content to scrape a survival together). However, there is only evidence of a reliance of different tech, not the personal development as such by each seperate craftworld. It isn't just Iyaden that utilises Wraithguard, nor is it only Ulthwe that has farseer pysker weapons.

BTW, I think an Exodite Codex would be very interesting. But maybe we already have that... (WHFB High Elves )

focusedfire wrote:Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.

This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.

The background text I quoted is by Graham McNeill, one of the Codex authors and from the same time as the Codex, so I don't believe that there is such a statement in the Codex, pleace give a source. Andy Hoare's Kroot Mercenary list from the same time is BASED on the fact that Kroot haven't reached a limit of adaptability, but exactly the contrary. So with 2 of 3 coauthors writing texts contradicting your statement, I highly doubt it.

Again, the miniature box and unit is called "Kroot Carnivore Squad", not "Kroot treasure hunter Squad", because the eating of enemy flesh is the most important factor. The rules require a moral check, whether the Kroot eat their victims, not browse them for weapons. Yes, they want to survive as a race and they want new toys, but the survival as a race is dominant over the acquisition of new toys (that distinguishes them from today's mankind ).

Jihallah wrote:The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

Kroothawk wrote:

Jihallah wrote:The Imperials will genocide you- the Tau will control you. Die fighting Imperials or live under Tau boot? Gimme a flashlight

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

(emphasis by me)

Doesn't stop them from dallying in the whole subjugation business. Just look at the Codex. If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

- Kroot: "...an age of cooperation between these two races began ... (page 14) -> no subjugation check
- Vespids: "... trusted allies... " (page 16) -> no subjugation check
- Smaller races: "Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check
- Taros: just trading relations before the Imperium decides to attack and kill the Taros government. -> no subjugation check
"For the Emperor" novel: Tau leave the Imperial planet -> no subjugation check
- Other strong cultures: "Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check
- Other races not wanting to join the Empire: "There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection." -> no subjugation check

You can assume, bet and speculate as much as you want: No subjugation found, only allies, cooperation, unions, friendship, benevolent help, mutual protection ...
It is a galaxy at war, so you have to fight enemies trying to kill you, but the Tau are the first to offer peace treaties to avoid bloodshed.

This discussion reminds me of China, who want to convince the world that the biggest threat to world peace is the Dalai Lama.

Kroothawk wrote:- Kroot: "...an age of cooperation between these two races began ... (page 14) -> no subjugation check
- Vespids: "... trusted allies... " (page 16) -> no subjugation check
- Smaller races: "Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check
- Taros: just trading relations before the Imperium decides to attack and kill the Taros government. -> no subjugation check
"For the Emperor" novel: Tau leave the Imperial planet -> no subjugation check
- Other strong cultures: "Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties." (BFG rules) -> no subjugation check
- Other races not wanting to join the Empire: "There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection." -> no subjugation check

Nice how a "snip" at the right place gets you what you want.....

Kroothawk wrote:
You can assume, bet and speculate as much as you want: No subjugation found, only allies, cooperation, unions, friendship, benevolent help, mutual protection ...

Now, back from the floor and seated again, Maybe we can accept the whole story?

Kroothawk wrote:
It is a galaxy at war, so you have to fight enemies trying to kill you, but the Tau are the first to offer peace treaties to avoid bloodshed.

And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.


I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1) True, no higher authority for them. However, apart from perhaps the Saim-Hann there is little to suggest an inherent rivalry between the Craftworlds as there is between many (if not most) SM chapters. It really can be argued either way.
2) How so? How is a Saim-Hann Bike army any more different from an Alaitoc Pathfinder than how a White Scars Biker army is different from a Scout based army?
3) Yay! X]
4) I agreed with you that there are different goals (although the Biel-Tann seem to be the only ones that believe in a resurgance while the others are content to scrape a survival together). However, there is only evidence of a reliance of different tech, not the personal development as such by each seperate craftworld. It isn't just Iyaden that utilises Wraithguard, nor is it only Ulthwe that has farseer pysker weapons.

BTW, I think an Exodite Codex would be very interesting. But maybe we already have that... (WHFB High Elves )

1)You mean the Biel-Tan?
2)I was talking more about the old Iyanden and Peil-tan lists. I know that there are similarities to the various SM chapters having bunches of Terminators or dreadnoughts but the Eldar go a little further in the weapons being fairly unique.
3)---
4)You missed the part where other craft worlds are beginning to think Ulthwe has become affected(Possibly corrupted) by constant exposure to the EoT. No one is really sure what Ulthwes goals are now.

Rumor has it that exodites will be in the DE codex.

Kroothawk wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Yet the First Tau Codex speaks of the kroot as to having developed as far as they could technologically and needing the Taus help to procede further. It also sys that the kroot have reached the limit of their mutative ability to absorb differring dna. I can see that they move out to also get dna from fresh sources to help prevent stagnation but the background mentions that the kroot are mercenaries that will only fight to the extent that they have been paid.

This points to what I was saying before about their reasons being both. Personally, I think that trade takes the lead as to the fact that the kroot are space flight capable and could just go hunt for the genetic material without going through the process of waiting to be hired to fight.

The background text I quoted is by Graham McNeill, one of the Codex authors and from the same time as the Codex, so I don't believe that there is such a statement in the Codex, pleace give a source. Andy Hoare's Kroot Mercenary list from the same time is BASED on the fact that Kroot haven't reached a limit of adaptability, but exactly the contrary. So with 2 of 3 coauthors writing texts contradicting your statement, I highly doubt it.

Again, the miniature box and unit is called "Kroot Carnivore Squad", not "Kroot treasure hunter Squad", because the eating of enemy flesh is the most important factor. The rules require a moral check, whether the Kroot eat their victims, not browse them for weapons. Yes, they want to survive as a race and they want new toys, but the survival as a race is dominant over the acquisition of new toys (that distinguishes them from today's mankind ).
(snip)
If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

Yes, lets believe GW. Not, Hired workers. You quote from outside sources and I will quote from the original codex.

Page 11 Original Codex:
"They have two cerebral hemisphers one behind the other. The front hemisphere controls logic and memory and is considerably more developed than theother hemisphere, which governs imagination and creativity. Kroot interpret what they perceive and react accordingly, with little emotional clutter.The rear hemisphere is another mutation, it controls their inventiveness and imagination and has a very limited capacity. Whilst it is more pronounced in some Kroot kindreds, this limits the Kroots creativity considerably, with the consequences that they have gone about as far technologically as they are likely to go without the help of a more sophisticated people."

Next paragraph

"The Kroot have little capacity for further mutation without seriously destabilizing their DNA. They cannont therefore aquire every advanced trait they encounter or their variety will end, trapped in a single form that is a gentic dead end. Kroot Hounds and Krootox are examples of this error being made in the past."

Page 12 refers to the kroot violating the terms of annexation by saying, "It is theredore my conclusion that many Kroot still pursue thier old lifestyles as mercenaries outside of the Tau Empire."

Page 27 of the original codex is very enlightening on this subject. Like how you are confusing Eaters of the dead with the Mercenaries rule.
On that page it states that Mercenaries rule boosts the Kroots leadership if their employer buys them the armour save, while Eaters of the Dead was about whether the kroot were so hungry that they gave in to instinct during battle.

Also look at the side bar where it says,"The Kroot warriors have a strict code of honour, in return for support from the Tau Empire, supply large numbers of warriors as exclusive mercenaries."

Then there is the simple matter of the word:
Mercenaries-: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service.

The kroot already know how to kill and eat, eating battlefield dead is no reward.

Now what would be a reward to a species with little inventiveness but an incredible abillity to copy some other races inventions?


This is getting way off topic. lets go back to the human concepts of good and evil.

1hadhq wrote:And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.


I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.

You would be wrong in that assumption when looking at the original fluff. It steers clear of any subjugation and such. Instead, the thing that would most closely describe what you call evil is that the Tau portray the Imperialist British and U.S. concepts of manifest destiny. Before you argue that the concept of manifest destiny was purely U.S., I'd like to remind you that the concept had its roots in the british empire.

Now whether the concept is good or bad might depend on whether you apply a Darwinian model to the lifespans of empires. If you do such then an Empire struggling to survive past where it should by nature fall is the evil one for violating the natural order of things.

focusedfire wrote:Yes, lets believe GW. Not, Hired workers. You quote from outside sources and I will quote from the original codex.

Page 11 Original Codex:
"They have two cerebral hemisphers one behind the other. The front hemisphere controls logic and memory and is considerably more developed than theother hemisphere, which governs imagination and creativity. Kroot interpret what they perceive and react accordingly, with little emotional clutter.The rear hemisphere is another mutation, it controls their inventiveness and imagination and has a very limited capacity. Whilst it is more pronounced in some Kroot kindreds, this limits the Kroots creativity considerably, with the consequences that they have gone about as far technologically as they are likely to go without the help of a more sophisticated people."

Next paragraph

"The Kroot have little capacity for further mutation without seriously destabilizing their DNA. They cannont therefore aquire every advanced trait they encounter or their variety will end, trapped in a single form that is a gentic dead end. Kroot Hounds and Krootox are examples of this error being made in the past."

Page 12 refers to the kroot violating the terms of annexation by saying, "It is theredore my conclusion that many Kroot still pursue thier old lifestyles as mercenaries outside of the Tau Empire."

Page 27 of the original codex is very enlightening on this subject. Like how you are confusing Eaters of the dead with the Mercenaries rule.
On that page it states that Mercenaries rule boosts the Kroots leadership if their employer buys them the armour save, while Eaters of the Dead was about whether the kroot were so hungry that they gave in to instinct during battle.

Also look at the side bar where it says,"The Kroot warriors have a strict code of honour, in return for support from the Tau Empire, supply large numbers of warriors as exclusive mercenaries."

Then there is the simple matter of the word:
Mercenaries-: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service.

The kroot already know how to kill and eat, eating battlefield dead is no reward.

Now what would be a reward to a species with little inventiveness but an incredible abillity to copy some other races inventions?

This is getting way off topic. lets go back to the human concepts of good and evil.

The "hired worker from outside sources" is one of the Codex authors in the major White Dwarf article on Kroot hortlly after Codex release (yes, the "Index Xenos: Kroot" was an WD article same year as Codex, December 2001). Please read this official clarifications before making false assumptions. It was partly integrated in the Codex "Tau Empire" text BTW, another "outside source by a hired worker" .

In detail: Yes they are not very creative in technology, but they voluntarily gave up a higher level of civilization with big cities. So they take new toys, they take money, but Index Kroot and the new Codex make it clear, that DNA is the main reason. Again, please read the official Index Kroot or at least the new Codex on Kroot, esp. the part about genetics to fully understand how this race functions, currently you miss some important parts. The "next paragraph" is a short hint that not all mutations are welcome, that's why the shapers are essential for the survival of the Kroot race, Krootox and Kroot hound being descendents of the Kroot. The "Tau Empire" Codex is very explicit, that Kroot DNA is "almost empty" and has lots of room to integrate foreign DNA. Their variable DNA is their strength AND their weakness, as they NEED to eat diverse DNA to survive as an intelligent race, think of it as a culinary form of incest taboo, as it works quite similar. Always eating the same relatives and burgers would turn them into Krootoxen. If the Codex author says that the Kroot go out in search for valuable DNA, you should believe him ("On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.")

I gave you the chance for an out, not my fault you didn't take it and end up gaetting upset.

Kroothawk wrote:
The "hired worker from outside sources" is one of the Codex authors in the major White Dwarf article on Kroot hortlly after Codex release (yes, the "Index Xenos: Kroot" was an WD article same year as Codex, December 2001). Please read this official clarifications before making false assumptions. It was partly integrated in the Codex "Tau Empire" text BTW, another "outside source by a hired worker" .

I read the clarifications yet White Dwarf's Kroot information was declared unofficial. Seems to be that you are the one operating under false assumptions.

You re the one that brought up official back story and when presented with such that contadicts your POV you try to declare that outside information that GW declared unofficial has more veracity in indicating what GW intended for its product than the official work released by GW.

You need to make up your mind on whether you want to argue the facts or just your opinion. Remember, the only source for 100% accepted backstory in GW's game are the codices.


BTW-Yes, the codex is printed by outside hired workers, but its content is determined by GW, no other entities just GW.

Kroothawk wrote:
In detail: Yes they are not very creative in technology, but they voluntarily gave up a higher level of civilization with big cities. So they take new toys, they take money, but Index Kroot and the new Codex make it clear, that DNA is the main reason. Again, please read the official Index Kroot or at least the new Codex on Kroot, esp. the part about genetics to fully understand how this race functions, currently you miss some important parts. The "next paragraph" is a short hint that not all mutations are welcome, that's why the shapers are essential for the survival of the Kroot race, Krootox and Kroot hound being descendents of the Kroot. The "Tau Empire" Codex is very explicit, that Kroot DNA is "almost empty" and has lots of room to integrate foreign DNA. Their variable DNA is their strength AND their weakness, as they NEED to eat diverse DNA to survive as an intelligent race, think of it as a culinary form of incest taboo, as it works quite similar. Always eating the same relatives and burgers would turn them into Krootoxen. If the Codex author says that the Kroot go out in search for valuable DNA, you should believe him ("On the contrary many Kroot Warspheres leave Pech every year taking Kindreds to mercenary assignments across the galaxy in search of valuable genetic materials to return to Pech to strengthen the race.")

1)The new Codex does no such thing. It dos not support your stance in any manner.

2)You keep adding the word official in front of an unofficial document. You can call the "Xenos Index" official as much as you want but it is labeled as fan-fiction in every case that I've found it.(Please, if you can provide me with proof of the Index as an official GW Source for background then I will retract this line in my reply) Again, remember that GW only considers the codex as cannon. They occasionally act like the black library is official but yet they keep letting people write contridictory back stories.

3)By not reading the first codex you missed where the reference about DNA being mostly empty space was in reference to "normal" DNA and that the kroot have almost completely filled up these empty spaces. In other words, the mutation was not the empty DNA but rather the ability to fill the empty space that is normally there.

In the current codex they changed this to the Kroot just have empty space and are able to insert DNA from what has been consumed into these spaces. Nowhere in the codex does it state or even alude to their needing to find other sources of DNA. Only resaon given anywhere in the codex is page 37 where it again mentions the Kroot as mercenaries.

Now the reason for the changes from codex to codex are unknown and can only be speculated upon, it could be that GW did not like the concept and use of the word mutation and was tired of answering whether or not Deamon hunters special rules applied or it could just be another 4th edition codex with butchered fluff and poorly written rules. Whatever the reason, there is still nothing in the official fluff past or present that supports your position here.

Mercenaries are those that fight for weapons and money. Creatures that fight for food are hunting dogs. This leaves you with a choice:

1)If you decide to accept them as mercenaries fighting for tech, supplies and wealth then you are supporting the concept of the Tau as a benevolent race.

2)If you decide to have them fight for the food that they already have the capacity to provide for themselves, then you are supporting the Tau as an exploitative race that is engaging in animal cruelty.

Can you explain why a Kroot background text by a GW staffer and Codex Tau author (Graham McNeill) in the White Dwarf two months after the release is just irrelevant fan fiction? In what way is a GW staffer an outside worker or can be discredited just as a fan?

The other GW staffer and Codex author, Andy Hoare, published the Kroot Mercenary list in the White Dwarf just 4 months after the release (February 2002):

Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.

The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.

Another case of an ignorant fan posting stupid stuff in a dubious fanzine?
Remember, the Kroot list was GW tournament legal for years and therefore officially official on the same level as a Codex.

If in doubt, believe the people who created the race.

Maybe it is hard to believe now, but years ago, the WD actually had relevant content

focusedfire wrote:

1hadhq wrote:And since the Tau act as agressors there, their neighbours have to fight them.


I don't need to speculate, but could bet a codex dedicated to a certain race and their allies that clearly shows the fanatical ideology
of the greater good as what it is, a selfrighteous excuse to conquer, so pages 10 - to - 15 of that codex, (still sold and not taken down from the GW site), should be enough to prove the lack of white on their vest.

You would be wrong in that assumption when looking at the original fluff. It steers clear of any subjugation and such. Instead, the thing that would most closely describe what you call evil is that the Tau portray the Imperialist British and U.S. concepts of manifest destiny. Before you argue that the concept of manifest destiny was purely U.S., I'd like to remind you that the concept had its roots in the british empire.

Now whether the concept is good or bad might depend on whether you apply a Darwinian model to the lifespans of empires. If you do such then an Empire struggling to survive past where it should by nature fall is the evil one for violating the natural order of things.

At least we accept the name of the codex is on purpose 'empire' not gathering of best superfriends. I think the posted opinion i have adressed with that statement was deserving this reply. Since page 10 to 15 clearly go that imperialist route, use this gunboat policy,
even hint on undermining societys and ambushing anything not well defended. Darwin is irrelevant, except for nids, but the natural order of things never existed since the old ones tried to control the fate of the galaxy.
Consider the game down if the Imperium falls. GW needs it, and thus it is infallible.
If they follow this crappy darwinism, new races should show up every x-thousand years. Now imagine the nerd rage of squatting
dozens of codices each edition and releasing new ones instead ( but still with GW's copy-paste skill....).
Change doesn't work in a setup like 40k.

Since we have agreed upon concepts of good / evil, yes the 'manifest destiny' isn't good. ( I'll refrain from an example here. )
Imperialism and colonialism isn't good either, as it creates a lot of problems later. (see this little blue planet)
What is left then? The intend of an rising new empire alongside the common space orks, space elfs, space knights, space robots, space bugs, space demons, space troopers?
Ok, GW goes asia. Did welcome it first. Then realized how selective the perception of the fanbase is. Where others take the whole story
and live with the dark side/ lost battles/ not so compatible fluff, the Tau only see the positive.
Maybe C.S.Goto should write the next Tau codex. And put a nice Farsight vs Shadowsun in it. Civil war FTW.

Nurgle Chaos Daemons is the least evil. Read the fluff. They're all about life and laughter, hope springing from despair, inspiration in the darkness.

Beasts of Nurgle are just big, playful dogs. Nurglings are giggling children. Plaguebearers go about their accounting work chanting songs on their lips. Great unclean ones are loving fathers encouraging you to enjoy this temporary life. Nurgle's followers are granted immortality and immunity to pain. They live in a vast, lush garden teeming with life.

What's not to love?
Nurgle is most conclusively the least evil.
Trust in the codex...

focusedfire wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Just fancy talk for the lame cop-out that is Relativism.

Criticizing, without posting your stance.

Is this a case where you can dish it out but can't take it?

...my point was you're using Relativism but explaining it in a long winded way. My stance is I don't like Relativism. Happy?

Kroothawk wrote: Can you explain why a Kroot background text by a GW staffer and Codex Tau author (Graham McNeill) in the White Dwarf two months after the release is just irrelevant fan fiction? In what way is a GW staffer an outside worker or can be discredited just as a fan?

Ask GW, they are the ones that constantly break their own backstory and then rewrite said backstory in a similarly broken but different manner. Point is that GW has, in essence, declared most of the Tau/Kroot backstory as not recognized/unofficial. What is recognised is in the current(outdated) book which has a butchered backstory that is insufficient to provide a substantial basis to support either claim.

Kroothawk wrote:The other GW staffer and Codex author, Andy Hoare, published the Kroot Mercenary list in the White Dwarf just 4 months after the release (February 2002):

Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.

The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.

Another case of an ignorant fan posting stupid stuff in a dubious fanzine?
Remember, the Kroot list was GW tournament legal for years and therefore officially official on the same level as a Codex.

No just another instance of the owner/creator edititing their creative property.
Yes they were accepted, and now they are not.

I accept that such was written in the WD, I just find it funny that you leave out the various mercenary remarks about them fighting for a greater variety of weapons.

Kroothawk wrote: If in doubt, believe the people who created the race.

Maybe it is hard to believe now, but years ago, the WD actually had relevant content

I do. I believe GW as to what the race os intended to be.

BTW- Yeah the good old days of when WD had content, msybe.

1hadhq wrote:At least we accept the name of the codex is on purpose 'empire' not gathering of best superfriends. I think the posted opinion i have adressed with that statement was deserving this reply. Since page 10 to 15 clearly go that imperialist route, use this gunboat policy,
even hint on undermining societys and ambushing anything not well defended. Darwin is irrelevant, except for nids, but the natural order of things never existed since the old ones tried to control the fate of the galaxy.
Consider the game down if the Imperium falls. GW needs it, and thus it is infallible.
If they follow this crappy darwinism, new races should show up every x-thousand years. Now imagine the nerd rage of squatting
dozens of codices each edition and releasing new ones instead ( but still with GW's copy-paste skill....).
Change doesn't work in a setup like 40k.

Since we have agreed upon concepts of good / evil, yes the 'manifest destiny' isn't good. ( I'll refrain from an example here. )
Imperialism and colonialism isn't good either, as it creates a lot of problems later. (see this little blue planet)
What is left then? The intend of an rising new empire alongside the common space orks, space elfs, space knights, space robots, space bugs, space demons, space troopers?
Ok, GW goes asia. Did welcome it first. Then realized how selective the perception of the fanbase is. Where others take the whole story
and live with the dark side/ lost battles/ not so compatible fluff, the Tau only see the positive.
Maybe C.S.Goto should write the next Tau codex. And put a nice Farsight vs Shadowsun in it. Civil war FTW.

1)Yes, we agree that they are Imperialists

2)I and History Disagree about Darwinianconcepts being irrelevent.

3)Disagree with the game being down if Imperium falls. Will agree that the Game ends if the story-line is advanced past year 40,000. It would be 41K.

4)By GW's Storyline, a new race or empire does try to arise every 10,000 or so years. and if they ever get a viably profitable chance to make the models obsolete, they will.

5)Never said that I agreed with your concepts of good and evil. I just now kmow from where you base your argumants.

6)Yet Imperialism is not necessarily from your POV. It merely exists as concepts that provide the impetus for various froups actions.

7)Yes, they intended the Tau to become the counter point and the idealistic reference point from which some of the ather races started.

8)Please don't blanket judge all as the same. I do not push the Tau as fluffy white(blue) saviors.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:...my point was you're using Relativism but explaining it in a long winded way. My stance is I don't like Relativism. Happy?

My point is that it is easy to criticize when not supporting a position yourself and claiming your stance is an anti stance of anothers position is no stance. You are hiding behind someone elses position on a topic.

BTW, yes I am happy.

I believe myself that the only 'good' team in the universe is the grey knights, they are pretty much the only beings (other then the emperor) that are uncurruptible by chaos. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I also believe that they sometimes disobey the orders of their superiors if they do what they think is unethical...

focusedfire wrote:Ask GW, they are the ones that constantly break their own backstory and then rewrite said backstory in a similarly broken but different manner. Point is that GW has, in essence, declared most of the Tau/Kroot backstory as not recognized/unofficial. What is recognised is in the current(outdated) book which has a butchered backstory that is insufficient to provide a substantial basis to support either claim.

No just another instance of the owner/creator edititing their creative property.
Yes they were accepted, and now they are not.

I accept that such was written in the WD, I just find it funny that you leave out the various mercenary remarks about them fighting for a greater variety of weapons

The WD articles were written as an integral part of the Tau release material, to flesh out some aspects that had not enough room in the Codex. Kroot have so much material and background because they were shortly considered to have their own Codex, but Tau won. There was no stop press background rewriting two months after the Codex release (and I am surprised that you use such weak and counterintuitive foundations for your argumentation). It is all a consistent background covered from different sides in all Kroot publications and well known and uncontested among Kroot players, so I am surprised that you are not aware of this. I think it was even mentioned in the "making of" article on Tau in the release month WD.

Were is the GW source that states that all official background texts on Tau and Kroot are wrong? All sources I know (and common sense) contradict that statement. Andy Hoare and Graham McNeill have developed a nice and deep background for the Kroot, that was published in waves to keep the interest in this new race alive. It is accepted by the Kroot community, it is supported by all texts (let's see the upcoming Rogue Trader background text for further confirmation). But you are free to contest this on the Kroot website: http://z8.invisionfree.com/KompletelyKroot/ . But be prepared to get several reactions.

Kroothawk wrote:It is all a consistent background covered from different sides in all Kroot publications and well known and uncontested among Kroot players, so I am surprised that you are not aware of this.

Excuse me, I think it is very odd that you claim to speak for all Kroot Players, as I have a friend who plays Kroot Mercernaries and has said nothing of the sort.

Ask him again about this passage in his Kroot Mercenary list:

Kroot evolution depends on their absorbing the genetic traits of other races, selectively inheriting the most desirable. They do this through eating specific prey animals to ensure that the next generation take on certain characteristics of that animal. Unfortunately, the Tau insistence that the Kroot fight exclusively for them would lead to a disastrous stagnation, as they have absorbed the traits of most of the creatures from within the Tau region. To collect as wide a range of characteristics as possible, they secretly despatch entire armies of mercenaries to fight alongside other races in order to expose themselves to creatures and environments not found in Tau space.

The result is that each of these mercenary bands develops separately to the mainstream of Kroot society. When they periodically return to the Kroot home world of Pech, they bring with them a wealth of new traits to be absorbed by the race at large. These itinerant bands often appear radically different from the standard Kroot, having absorbed all manner of outlandish genetic data.

And where all his army adaptations are coming from:

SIGNATURE EVOLUTIONARY ADAPTATIONS
If you are fielding an army consisting entirely of Mercenary Kroot, rather than taking them as mercenaries for another force, then you may purchase a special Evolutionary Adaptation. You may choose a single Signature Evolutionary Adaptation for your Mercenary Kroot army. This represents the specific evolutionary path on which the Master Shaper has led his band, directing them to feed on specific prey in order to gain the characteristics of the creatures native to the warzones in which the band must fight. Choose one adaptation from the list below, and apply it to every Kroot in the army. Krootox and Kroot Hounds do not benefit from these signature adaptations.

It is simply impossible tp play the Kroot mercenary list and not being aware of this background, as it is BASED on this specific part of the background. Maybe he didn't tell you because he couldn't imagine anyone to question this. Talk to him.

focusedfire wrote:
1)Yes, we agree that they are Imperialists

2)I and History Disagree about Darwinianconcepts being irrelevent.

3)Disagree with the game being down if Imperium falls. Will agree that the Game ends if the story-line is advanced past year 40,000. It would be 41K.

4)By GW's Storyline, a new race or empire does try to arise every 10,000 or so years. and if they ever get a viably profitable chance to make the models obsolete, they will.

5)Never said that I agreed with your concepts of good and evil. I just now know from where you base your argumants.

6)Yet Imperialism is not necessarily from your POV. It merely exists as concepts that provide the impetus for various groups actions.

7)Yes, they intended the Tau to become the counter point and the idealistic reference point from which some of the other races started.

8)Please don't blanket judge all as the same. I do not push the Tau as fluffy white(blue) saviors.

2) You may disagree but history doesn't. Could depend which "history" we use tough...

3) the timeline is already at M41 But the power of the emperor keeps it at M41/42. Frozen time FTW.

4) who tried in M30? M20? M10?

7) Since they started with codex Tau and moved on to Tau empire, the intend of the first book is now the same starting point as the others
races have had, but the second book changed things to implement the neccessitys of an empire and therfore intend of 1st codex isn't
the actual official background of them anymore as a new codex replaces the old one.

8) Sorry. but the overwhelming mass of chants of blue/grey saviours got the better of me.

The debates and discussions in this thread have move most of Dakka (and myself) into Accepting the Greater Good, as the Only Good.

at 31% integration into the empire, i think its safe to say Tau are possibly the closest thing we will ever get to a Benevolent race in 40K