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Ruckdog wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Tau as Communist...they have a rigid caste system, etc.

Also, @Focusedfire: Your definition of Chaos as not evil,just lacking order, is perhaps dictionary correct but I don't think it holds water in the 40k universe. The point is, as I understand it, is that sentient life has give Chaos order through hatred, jealousy, and anger. To me, it is pretty cut and dried that Chaos in the 40k setting is intended to be evil incarnate.

1)Good to see someone who knows the defintion of communism.

2)Chaos is not evil until the civilizations of certain sentient races achieve enough of a population denisty that their latent Psychic abilities and subconcious thoughts begin to give shape to the Emyprium. Due to this, Chaos in and of itself is not evil, rather it is either these races or the forming of civilizations that are what would be called evil.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I've just learned that Tau practice slavery too. In the Taros Campaign human POWs get sentanced to hard labour for life for the greater good.

It is not agreed that "Life Imprisonment" is universally or always evil. "Modern day" society makes to distinction between incarceration and enslavement. In this case your claim of slavery is arguable. Sentencing threats to the State to life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide. Though some would argue it to be less evil.

BTW, Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessarry evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.)

Emperors Faithful wrote:@focusedfire: If it is agreed that enslaving people, by it's nature, is an evil act then it can only be said that Orks certainly aren't bereift of evil. The good treatment is admirable, but ultimately makes little difference (although comparing their treatment to grots isn't that great. And they don't conciously go out of their way to make things more bearable).

Tyranids are by their very nature evil. Their path can only lead to oblivion when either they are defeated or when they consume all biomass and starve themselves. Nothing good can come out of this process, so it can only be seen as evil.

1)Life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide, though some would argue it to be less evil. Due to this, your argument here is not valid because there has never been a consensus that the act of slavery is bad or evil. While currently the act of privatized slavery is frowned upon the act of slavery(Life imprisonment with hard labour) on the State level is widely accepted.
Quoting myself from an answer above:
"Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessary evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.) "

2)It could be argued that extinction of life in this Galaxy could be a good thing if it will remove the taint of "evil" from the Empyr-..(What, GW seems to have abandoned that term, GDGW) from the "warp". Our galaxy is just one in millions that are protected from negatively affecting each other by the vast distances that seperate them, while within the "Realm of Chaos" distances do not really matter and the 40K galaxy's effect upon them may be polluting other galaxies.

Just because we can't perceive the Tyranids as serving a useful or good function does not mean that they are evil or entropic. They could just as easily be a form of immune system response by the universe to deal with cancers within itself.

Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.

On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?

Tau are not communist. I know that modern text books tend to ignore thi but the original concept is at a diametrical opposition to a caste system.

1hadhq wrote:
From our real life examples of self proclaimed communists here in europe: NO.

You don't have communists in europe, you have various groups that purport to being communist but most of these groups espouse a philosophy tthat has nothing to do with the teachings of Marx.
Before you mention Lenin, Stalin or Moa please note that all were socialists that claimed to be Communists. The systems they employed had very little to do with the concept of communism as described by Marx.

1hadhq wrote:
In a SF universe, GW may claim whatever they want.
Still, 40k is a dark place (looking at the intro of the rulebook) and I doubt the intend of a race of 'good guys' on GW's part.
Different motives, sure.
But the course of the background is somtimes erraneous, ( example BA/necrons ), and I wouldn't bet my firstborn child on
a weak argument like designers notes predating the first codex.

IMO, Tau got the caste system from india, the way of the warrior from japan, the communist approach to education and indoctrination,
work like an ant-hill ( greater good, etheral=queen ) and were a fine addition to 40k until their fans got mad at those disagreeing with them. People make fun of races in a good humored way, but if you criticise Tau, youre gonna burn as it seems you just pissed in their coffee. I don't know, when I ask which other codex/race uses designers notes as argument, there is only silence.

As the 'greater good' is some sort of ideology and ideology isn't considered a good thing, as 'unbelievers' will not stay unharmed when the 'believers' intend to reach 100%. Plus 40k isn't meant for less casualities, its expanding to have more explosions and fiery death.
So Peace and goodwill contradicts the intend of 'eternal war', which is the motto of 40k.

Tau can't act as good guys, as the game universe demands conflicts, therefore a reason to oppose them has to exist.
See, don't need to make em bad guys, just accept the incompatibility of a too positive view of any race.

1)I disagree with your opinion as to the intent of GW here. IMO, as a writer you need contrast for things to mave meaning. The game of 40K quickly becomes meaningless when set in a galaxy without hope. I veiw GW's move to introduce the Tau as a means of adding such contrast and thus making the darker even darker. This also increases factionalism and helps keep the game fresh and more interesting than just endlessly repeating "For the Emperor". Now you have people saying "For The Greater Good" which encourages competition.
Also, The Ultimate in Grim dark isn't watching an endless struggle for survival, to me it will be watching the youthful idealism of the Tau slowly bleed out and become corrupted by the necessities of surviving within the 41st millenium.

2)I agree with you on the India and Japanese comments, but disagree the use of the word communist in the last part. If you had said totalitarian regimes I could agree, but not with the misuse of the term communist. The Tau's methods of indoctination actually match the methods used by most successful empires: The Egyptian, Alexander's Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, United States, Nazi Germany, and Socialist Russia have all had a Join or die approach at one point or another. They all recognized the need of assimilating, enslaving, or killing those they had conquered.

BTW, The reason why Tau fans get touchy is because of the misuse of the term Communist. It is a term that ranks right up there with nazi for many people. You might find that the Tau players show a bit more humor when you stop comparing them and their army to an ideal responsible for more deaths in the last century than nazi-ism and christanity combined. Seriously, You should realize that it would be the same as pointing out that "Your" Imperium armies are all a bunch of nazi's and that the SM's represent the idea of the master race. While I personally can have a calm and reasoned debate as to the merits of either comment, I am not your average player/person that is prone to knee-jerk responses. It is all a matter of who you say such around.

3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.

Focusedfire I agree with you completely on Tau actualy making it darker. If the setting is hopeless you just give in and accept what you have. If there is a chance for something better but it's very hard to reach and is very small it means you can be worried that they may be destroyed. This is helped by the Tau being a very small empire, with little chance against the imperium.

It also takes the imperium, the species we easiest relate to and the most powerful organisation and shows that they are far from the good guys. It shows us the imperium's laws on killing aliens are not needed, this makes the central forces seem a lot darker.

"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."

The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?

1hadhq wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Tau pretty much communist, and not the okay sort of idealistic communists, more of the Stalin style...Join me or die and even if you do join I'll use you to my benefit.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

If in doubt, believe the people who created this race.

How about a less repetitive posts?
Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view

If people take more than one minute to actually read Tau background texts before posting, I might consider taking more than one minute to answer. But all those "Tau are bloody communists and eat babies for breakfast" posts are just emotional responses expressing Tau hate and not based on actual evidence.

Exor wrote:"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."

The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?

If I understand you correctly, the DE are essentially unreasoning animals, that have no choice but to kill as it is their instinctive nature. Much like bacteria, lions or Tyranids.

Whilst I disagree with the premise, if it is granted it puts DE outside the frame of the problem.

Unfortunately the lack of fluff for Dark Eldar means we don't know enoguh to make a truly accurate claim about their true nature. It all seems rather biased towards, "they are evil". They may actually feel remorse for their actions, maybe. Only time will tell.

focusedfire wrote:

You don't have communists in europe, you have various groups that purport to being communist but most of these groups espouse a philosophy that has nothing to do with the teachings of Marx.
Before you mention Lenin, Stalin or Mao please note that all were socialists that claimed to be Communists. The systems they employed had very little to do with the concept of communism as described by Marx.

So"self proclaimed communists" wasn't clear?
Would like you to teach those who believe themselves beeing communist their wrong.
Nobody here assumes any of the "communist" states had followed Marx or Engels.
But asked for the common behaviour of the few available examples of "communists" ( took those claiming to be communist as example) lead me to them not beeing what EF asked for.
Still, the GDR and SED had a bad influence on some of those now joined to us.
And their education was filled with Marx. The GDR could be an example of the application of a concept ( socialists on their way to communism) and its outcome after real life hit the theories... Want a Marx for cheap? I think they have some left...

focusedfire wrote:
1)I disagree with your opinion as to the intent of GW here. IMO, as a writer you need contrast for things to mave meaning. The game of 40K quickly becomes meaningless when set in a galaxy without hope. I view GW's move to introduce the T'au as a means of adding such contrast and thus making the darker even darker. This also increases factionalism and helps keep the game fresh and more interesting than just endlessly repeating "For the Emperor". Now you have people saying "For The Greater Good" which encourages competition.
Also, The Ultimate in Grim dark isn't watching an endless struggle for survival, to me it will be watching the youthful idealism of the Tau slowly bleed out and become corrupted by the necessities of surviving within the 41st millenium.

2)I agree with you on the India and Japanese comments, but disagree the use of the word communist in the last part. If you had said totalitarian regimes I could agree, but not with the misuse of the term communist. The Tau's methods of indoctination actually match the methods used by most successful empires: The Egyptian, Alexander's Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, United States, Nazi Germany, and Socialist Russia have all had a Join or die approach at one point or another. They all recognized the need of assimilating, enslaving, or killing those they had conquered.

BTW, The reason why Tau fans get touchy is because of the misuse of the term Communist. It is a term that ranks right up there with nazi for many people. You might find that the Tau players show a bit more humor when you stop comparing them and their army to an ideal responsible for more deaths in the last century than nazi-ism and christanity combined. Seriously, You should realize that it would be the same as pointing out that "Your" Imperium armies are all a bunch of nazi's and that the SM's represent the idea of the master race. While I personally can have a calm and reasoned debate as to the merits of either comment, I am not your average player/person that is prone to knee-jerk responses. It is all a matter of who you say such around.

3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.

1) The intro of 40k has a lot of hopeless and grimdark x2 in it, so why should I assume GW intends to place T'au as counterpart?
Contrast is neccessary, but 40k existed before Tau become a part of that universe. Where was the counter then?
Yes, GW could use T'au as false hope faction, slowly realizing their ideals doesn't sit well with bazillions of creatures all around them.
The "greater good" isn't a competition for "the emprah", as this greater good lacks a definition in its aims, where the imperial theme is wellknown as it follows the same course as dozens of imperia did over the millenia on our little planet.
IMo, we have "the new guys" in the Tau, not bereft of their ideals and naive enough to get themselves into trouble.
But they are also free of the grudges, other long time factions may hold. Gives them a theme of their own, but they are hard to implant into a campaign with their small empire and lack of "natural" enemies.

2) I dont think I mis-used the term, but i admit the definition of the americans of communism and ours may differ.
Applied the term of communism with the attempts on communism in mind.

To throw egypt ( long lived empire ) rome ( expansionist and successful for centuries) greece ( empire? ) brits ( fine example of an empire) HRE ( empire like empire in whfb, defensive and inner conflicts ) USA ( wanna be replacement of rome but will not last )
3rd reich ( expansive and a real jon or die example ) soviet russia ( expansive and join or die since 1600...) into the same pot?
Have to disagree, as they have not in common what you say they have. take HRE, egypt and greece out and I may agree.

Now, I for one am fine with "my" Imperium beeing expansionistic/xenophobic/weird/..... but nazi?
You know, national -Socialism is just a different flavor of those red regimes.
The imperium is a collection of both, totalitarian regimes and ancient imperia and could be seen as whatever you want, its size allowing for every thinkable way to rule. Calling it nazi wouldn't show the whole picture.
I can live with that facet of the imperium.

3) agreed.

4) timeline = put in stasis until 6th ed?

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
How about a less repetitive posts?
Or is it neccessary to repeat yourself, until we all give in to your view

If people take more than one minute to actually read Tau background texts before posting, I might consider taking more than one minute to answer. But all those "Tau are bloody communists and eat babies for breakfast" posts are just emotional responses expressing Tau hate and not based on actual evidence.

Did read for more than 10 minutes and I want them BACK!



Seriously, do not assume I enjoy to look at the same content 3 times on a page in a thread. Some people tend to read more than the last 2 posts. So if you got HARD evidence ( ie codex = what made it from notes to printed background ) feel free to post.
Until then, consider repetitive identical posts as annoying and NOT in any case helpful.

Maybe take FF as an example of contributing to a thread?

Tau weren't in the early 40K -- neither were IG, Tyranids or Necrons.

Orks supplied the necessary comedy factor. They were much more Millwall fans in space than they are now.

Space Marines were not the 10 foot tall supermen they are now.

All was made more grimdark until it was so grimdark no-one could see what was going on. Tau were introduced for relief.

1hadhq wrote:Seriously, do not assume I enjoy to look at the same content 3 times on a page in a thread. Some people tend to read more than the last 2 posts. So if you got HARD evidence ( ie codex = what made it from notes to printed background ) feel free to post.
Until then, consider repetitive identical posts as annoying and NOT in any case helpful.

Why not post Codex evidence first why
1.) Tau are bloody communists
2.) genocide and sterilize everything and its dog

Difficult to discuss Tau background with people who have no knowledge about the topic, don't give a damn and just post the first insult that comes to their mind. Guess why noone cares to support their claims with evidence? Because there is none.

BTW, I don't enjoy it either to read the same, repetitive, identical and obviously made up lies on Tau in every Tau background thread.

focusedfire wrote:

1)Life imprisonment has always been accepted and is not in and of itself any more evil that just commiting exterminatus/genocide, though some would argue it to be less evil. Due to this, your argument here is not valid because there has never been a consensus that the act of slavery is bad or evil. While currently the act of privatized slavery is frowned upon the act of slavery(Life imprisonment with hard labour) on the State level is widely accepted.
Quoting myself from an answer above:
"Though personally disagreeing with these "modern day" distinctions I understand the necessity of renaming an act that is a politically incorrect necessity.(More or less that the concept of a necessary evil disproves the existence of good and evil as absolutes.) "

I'm confused, Orks enslaving an entire world is considered Life Imprisonment on a State level? I'm not entirely sure that this is the correct definition to use here, as Life Imprisonment with hard labour is (ussually) justitfied and accepted on the basis that it is a punishment, where there is little evidence of any sort of judiciary sytem where orks are involved.

Furthermore, if we are agreed that the orks were designed and bred for the express purpose of war and fighting, does that really excuse them from evil? A gun is designed for maiming and the taking of life, but how many consider it to be evil? If the orks aren't evil, was their creation still an evil act? Was their creator therefore evil? I could go on but... Nuts, I hate relativism.

2)It could be argued that extinction of life in this Galaxy could be a good thing if it will remove the taint of "evil" from the Empyr-..(What, GW seems to have abandoned that term, GDGW) from the "warp". Our galaxy is just one in millions that are protected from negatively affecting each other by the vast distances that seperate them, while within the "Realm of Chaos" distances do not really matter and the 40K galaxy's effect upon them may be polluting other galaxies.

Just because we can't perceive the Tyranids as serving a useful or good function does not mean that they are evil or entropic. They could just as easily be a form of immune system response by the universe to deal with cancers within itself.

As I understand it the "Realm of Chaos" is the result of a collaspe/corruption of a mass-transit system similar to (or even the same as) the Webway that was originally created by the Old Ones. As I understand it even the Old Ones never expanded beyond the 40k galaxy, so their transit system could not do so either. Going along that line of logic, it is impossible for the Warp to have done the same, as it is dependant on the Old Ones expansion.

In regards to the Tyranids, I am willing to accept them as Ammoral, but I can never consider them to be good.

Emperors Faithful wrote:He makes a valid point 1hadhq. Just not valid enough.

On a side note, can Communists be considered altruistic and idealistic?

Tau are not communist. I know that modern text books tend to ignore thi but the original concept is at a diametrical opposition to a caste system.

I was going Off Topic here. I am well aware that a Communist and Caste system are vastly different. I was just wondering if Communists (real life ones) can be considered altruistic and idealistic.

3)Again, I disagree because a little peace and good will makes the 40K universe just that much darker. It forces you to deal with the concept that many of the races probably started off just as idealistically as the Tau but the 40K universe hammers home the concept of time corrupts. Now this doesn't make the Tau good, it means that they are a source of hope that will lead to disappointment as the storyline proceeds into the 41K and later battlefleet gothica enviroment.

This. Although I am inclined to argue that their was always some form of evidence hinting at an inner corruption from the Tau. As soon as the Farsight Enclaves were established that much was clear.


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Exor wrote:"The Dark Eldar are inured to terror and death, taking a positive delight in the infliction of pain and misery. Yet there is something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torture; the Great Enemy; the One Who Thirsts. What the relationship between the Great Enemy and the Dark Eldar is, it is impossible to say. Although the Dark Eldar revel in their own wickedness and evil, there is a desperation about them; an all-consuming horror that forces them to kill and maim ecah other, to fall upon their prey without mercy, as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievous deeds they perform."

The Dark Eldar do what is necessary for them to survive. What they require and what say, the Tau require is completely different. Dark Eldar suffer from The Thirst, an all-consuming and ever-increasing need to drink the souls of other beings. They need to do this, otherwise they die, it's as simple as that. Would you not do whatever was necessary to survive? Does the wish to live really constitute evil?

While continuing the practice of torture and other such unpleasantries in order to stave off the thirst has become mandatory, it cannot be said that the Dark Eldar do not loathe their method of survival in the least. They seem to very much enjoy it. And remember, they were taking part in such practices with gusto before they were neccessary, before the Fall.

DrownedRat117 wrote:
Tyranids are, by instinct, ferocious. Some may argue they are not evil, but... no. They have supposedly consumed galaxies, and the universe is better off without them.

I disagree with your logic that since the universe would be better off without them, then they are evil. They are just animals following their base instincts. In fact I contend that very few of the races are "EVIL" and even the "good" tau are evil.

Chaos SM - Butt-hurt about a supposed betrayal by the emperor they turn against him and needing help they turn to chaos & become corrupted. So I contend that at it's heart the chaos legions are not truly evil.

Chaos Daemons - Evil

Necrons - By virtue of the C'tan who programmed them are evil, the necrons themselves are not.

T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil.

Imperium - Yes their methods are nasty but they are beset on all sides & internally by forces seeking to kill them & so it's not about good / bad it's all about survival.

Eldar - Highly manipulative & have willingly sacrificed whole human systems to spare a handful of eldar. To be fair they are dying out & are trying to hold on as long as they can, again survival =/= evil.

Dark Eldar - This is a tough one however (I forget where perhaps C: DE) it states that the dark eldar lust for souls seemed almost "desperate" - see the above poster he has the exerpt quoted. Slaanesh is slowly draining every one of their souls so here is your choice, torture and suck souls or spend an eternity writhing in torment yourself as some daemons play thing(and remember it's a slaaneshi daemon).

Orks - Supposedly created as warriors against the Necrontyr by the old ones. They were created to fight & fight they do just after millenia of unchecked developement they seem to have digressed into savages. Not evil just doing what their genetic code determines they do.

Tyranids - As stated they may be consuming vast ammounts of galaxies but how else could you fuel all those organisms, are you evil because you eat other living things? (plants animals fungi) They just happen to eat more.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

Chaos SM - Butt-hurt about a supposed betrayal by the emperor they turn against him and needing help they turn to chaos & become corrupted. So I contend that at it's heart the chaos legions are not truly evil. Emperors Children Butt-rape, Death Guard spread disease and misery, World Eaters kill a lot and Thousand Sons read and play wit warpfire. Much of their torment and maltreatment of fellow humans is done simply out of spite. Not exactly goody-goodies.

Chaos Daemons - Evil Toughts of every other race, but twisted. Yeah, if there is evil, this is it.

Necrons - By virtue of the C'tan who programmed them are evil, the necrons themselves are not. Were vain and greedy enough to sign their entire race away to slavery just for a chance at immortality. Pretty evil.

T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil. Might be

Imperium - Yes their methods are nasty but they are beset on all sides & internally by forces seeking to kill them & so it's not about good / bad it's all about survival. Practice xenophopia hunts, kill all heretical preachings. Ghandi and Mother Teresa would end up in Interrogation chambers. Only human, not humane.

Eldar - Highly manipulative & have willingly sacrificed whole human systems to spare a handful of eldar. To be fair they are dying out & are trying to hold on as long as they can, again survival =/= evil. Same xenophobia, closed ideals and all around dickery puts them level on evilness with Imperium.

Dark Eldar - This is a tough one however (I forget where perhaps C: DE) it states that the dark eldar lust for souls seemed almost "desperate" - see the above poster he has the exerpt quoted. Slaanesh is slowly draining every one of their souls so here is your choice, torture and suck souls or spend an eternity writhing in torment yourself as some daemons play thing(and remember it's a slaaneshi daemon). If I was told to either torture a puppy or have my soul sucked out I...well I don't know if I could do it. But I definitely wouldn't enjoy it.

Orks - Supposedly created as warriors against the Necrontyr by the old ones. They were created to fight & fight they do just after millenia of unchecked developement they seem to have digressed into savages. Not evil just doing what their genetic code determines they do. *shrug* I dunno. That whole slavery thing,

Tyranids - As stated they may be consuming vast ammounts of galaxies but how else could you fuel all those organisms, are you evil because you eat other living things? (plants animals fungi) They just happen to eat more. 3 people are sitting at a table with a freshly baked pie in the middle. 1 of them grabs the pie, gobbles it down, eats the table, and then chomps down the other 2 people. Evil? I dunno.

I think Good and Evil would be defined by intentions.

By that logic Tyranids and Orks are the least evil, since they don't really have evil intentions, they just kill people by instinct. Its what comes naturally to them.

Tyranid intentions = Eat until the Universe is barren. Then starve.

Ork intentions = Fight and kill and shoot for eternity.

Neither of those can be classed as "least evil".

Shas'O Dorian wrote:T'au - Forced sterilization of races that are deemed "undesirable" to the empire, along with a join-or-die ultimatum, they might be evil.

Can you please show me the page in the "Tau Empire" Codex, where this "forced sterilization" is mentioned? A precise quote would be best.

It referred to in the DoW games. But if you don't want to consider that valid then that's okay.

hey! nids just wanna recycle everything
(everything turns to biomass)


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Besides tyranids are the only ''not racist'' force

imperium: kill the mutant burn the heretic purge the unclean
chaos: death to the false emperor!
necrons: all must die!
nids: im hungry
tau: you do not believe in the greater good eh? (pulse rifle in the head)
etc. etc. etc.

The case of evil versus good is so very subjective, but there are a few general truths. Killing someone you hold in good light is never viewed as preferable. Selfless sacrifices where it is not required (giving gifts of friendship, putting your life on the line, etc) can be universally viewed as a good act.
Then there's a horde of other acts which each individual culture will attribute good or evil values to. Certain ancient south American cultures would put ritual blood sacrifices up on the "good" side of the list, even if it happened to be your own son being sacrificed, for example.
This does invalidate the Orks or Tyranids as non-evil, I should add. It only puts the Tyranid down as "not intentionally evil, but still acting like an evil force" while the orks would more be described as "bloody stupid, but still evil" (they kill for fun). Still, it's entirely up for debate which is more evil, though; planet eating Tyranids or religiously indoctrinating fascist Empire?

Then you get the moral side of the scale, which is even harder to define. Let's not go there.

Regardless, I wouldn't say Eldar are in any way evil or of low morals, but I would agree that they come across as arrogant bastards since it's they who decide what is best for others. "You need to die in order to stave off a greater disaster. No you don't get a say in this. No, I don't feel like informing you in advance."
Also, Eldar don't always go on self-preservation path, there is also the tiny hints that the Eldar psychers foresee some horrible disaster if the Empire should fall, or if the Emperor can no longer keep faith - not at all dissimilar to how the Eldar nations fell.
The ultimate goal of the Eldar is the preservation of the universe as a diverse one, not something encased in Eldar Wraithbone. however, they also view every other race as tools to this end, preferable to be used to further these goals rather than Eldar lives.
I voted Eldar as the least evil. Arrogant bastards, but not evil.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It referred to in the DoW games. But if you don't want to consider that valid then that's okay.

To be precise, it is mentioned in a non-GW product, in a timeline that definitely doesn't happen in 40k, told by an Imperial storyteller, given as the third likeliest answer, why men and women who live separated from each other get less children than couples living together.

This is presented in every second Tau post as the ultimate proof that Tau are THE EVULLZZ.
And as you can imagine, most other "proofs" have a similar lack of foundation, so you never find people bothering to give an exact source, as they know quite well they are making things up.

I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.

When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.

But my point was, Nids and Orks don't really have any morals, so good and evil doesnt really matter much with them.

4M2A wrote:I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.

When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.

The Imperium isn't on the offensive, they are on a defensive.
The great crusade was started to rebuild what was lost, therefore Humans fought to get their worlds back.
In this process, any opposing force was brought low, there you have the expansive part of humanitys history in 40k.
Nowadays ( M41) they just defend human worlds, they don't try to conquer non-human worlds but they still fight against any
possible threat to human worlds.

The T'au empire is on the offensive, they try to expand their influence and settle on other planets.
Thus, they try to conquer worlds of other races, not just such that pose a threat.

Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.

The imperium are constantly trying to take planets. When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.

If that was true the humans would only defend earth. All the planets they now live on, except terra, they took. Many belonged to either the Eldar, Orks or Crons but that didn't stop them.

If that argument is true the necrons are purely good as at one point they owned most of the galaxy, so they are just clearing their planets.

The humans believe they have a right to planets more than the the other races when they don't. This is just them believing they are superior, which just shows that they are evil.

4M2A wrote:The imperium are constantly trying to take planets.

Where?
Time of crusades is over. The IoM may claim ressources or attack aggressive neighbours (orks).

4M2A wrote: When they ordered an attack on the Tau when they were still a young species there were no humans on the planet, they attacked purey because they hate all aliens.

There was an explorator team and those decided the "animals" there wouldn't be worth diplomacy, a cleansing was ordered.
If that weren't delayed, there would be no Tau. But as GW invented Tau as new race, they got fluff-armor = warpstorm.

4M2A wrote:If that was true the humans would only defend earth. All the planets they now live on, except terra, they took. Many belonged to either the Eldar, Orks or Crons but that didn't stop them.

Mankind took those planets pre age of strife and orks/eldar or crons didn't exist on every single world.
The necrons had moved out to their Tomb worlds and eldar did no longer base their life on planets. Orks are just everywhere, so your argument would hand the galaxy to orks.
And i may guess orks consider a world belong to the strongest, so they 'accept' when theyre beaten their superior as new owner.
Until they need a 'reason' to come back....

4M2A wrote:If that argument is true the necrons are purely good as at one point they owned most of the galaxy, so they are just clearing their planets.

Exactly. In the minds of the necrons and their C'tan Masters, this galaxy belongs to them and every creature there is just
a ressource to harvest.

4M2A wrote:The humans believe they have a right to planets more than the the other races when they don't. This is just them believing they are superior, which just shows that they are evil.

They are too superior to be evil.
And they got the right to claim the galaxy, as they defend it against the darkness of the servants of chaos, hungry nids, rising Ctan,
plundering ork hordes and many more threats.
Tau just sit on the sidelines and try to benefit from the hard work.
Lately, imperial forces had to save the Tau's asses vs nids and crons.....

The Eldar are simply trying to find a new homeworld, flying around on their Craftworld ships.

1hadhq wrote:

4M2A wrote:I keep seeing this in this thread and I really don't understand it.

When we talk about humans killing all other races (even peaceful ones) is ok as it's selfdefence but when Tau offer peace then do the same if it's refused, they are called evil.

The Imperium isn't on the offensive, they are on a defensive.
The great crusade was started to rebuild what was lost, therefore Humans fought to get their worlds back.
In this process, any opposing force was brought low, there you have the expansive part of humanitys history in 40k.
Nowadays ( M41) they just defend human worlds, they don't try to conquer non-human worlds but they still fight against any
possible threat to human worlds.

The T'au empire is on the offensive, they try to expand their influence and settle on other planets.
Thus, they try to conquer worlds of other races, not just such that pose a threat.

Should make a difference if you try to conquer someone elses home or if you defend your own house.

So humans never sent a fleet to sterilise the Tau homeworld for colonisation?
Humans never launched the Damocles Crusade?

Interesting, I never knew that. It just shows what nonsense you pick up from reading Imperial history.

The Imperium do take planets, if they find one they want. Most of the battles are defending but thats because they own most of the planets they are capable of holding. An example of an attack is in the Imperial Guard codex it says

The Conquest of Atria IV

Thats not defence thats taking a planet.

The IoM may claim ressources or attack aggressive neighbours (orks).

Claiming resources that belong to someone else then taking them by force is just invasion. Equally the Dark Eldar could claim that it owns the human race therefore taking them is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, I am sure most people think the Dark eldar are evil.

There was an explorator team and those decided the "animals" there wouldn't be worth diplomacy, a cleansing was ordered.
If that weren't delayed, there would be no Tau. But as GW invented Tau as new race, they got fluff-armor = warpstorm.

This is another case of the imperium taking a planet for itself without caring about the previous inhabitants. The idea that something isn't worth talking to so we kill it, is a very selfish belief. Being selfish is usually considered a bad thing. I don't see how the informaion about the warp storm is relevant. There wouldn't be any races unless Gw said so.

Mankind took those planets pre age of strife and orks/eldar or crons didn't exist on every single world.
The necrons had moved out to their Tomb worlds and eldar did no longer base their life on planets. Orks are just everywhere, so your argument would hand the galaxy to orks.
And i may guess orks consider a world belong to the strongest, so they 'accept' when theyre beaten their superior as new owner.
Until they need a 'reason' to come back....

At the time the humans took the planets, eldar did live on planets, and orks infested many more planets. The idea that orks let them have the planets is not the case. Orks will only surrender to Orks. Otherwise they will fight until they have been wiped out.

Exactly. In the minds of the necrons and their C'tan Masters, this galaxy belongs to them and every creature there is just
a ressource to harvest.

Yet the C'tan are view as evil, and even the people who designed them say they are meant to be evil.

They are too superior to be evil.
And they got the right to claim the galaxy, as they defend it against the darkness of the servants of chaos, hungry nids, rising Ctan,
plundering ork hordes and many more threats.
Tau just sit on the sidelines and try to benefit from the hard work.
Lately, imperial forces had to save the Tau's asses vs nids and crons.....

The Tau want to defeat chaos, nids and crons as much as the imperium does. The only reason they do it less is that they are smaller so have less power. Saying they have the right to the galaxy because of this is just saying if your powerful your good, which is far from the truth. I'm also not sure how the Tau are just sitting around when they are having a much harder time taking planets that the imperium did. The IoM had huge armies and fought enemies that were fragmented and outnumbered. The Tau are fighting against a huge organisation which is well corordinated and much larger than the Tau empire.

4M2A wrote:The Imperium do take planets, if they find one they want. Most of the battles are defending but thats because they own most of the planets they are capable of holding. An example of an attack is in the Imperial Guard codex it says

The Conquest of Atria IV

Thats not defence thats taking a planet.

Too bad Atria IV was a bastion of chaos... So its not conquering a "free" world of a "free" race, but a attack at the archenemy.

4M2A wrote:Claiming resources that belong to someone else then taking them by force is just invasion. Equally the Dark Eldar could claim that it owns the human race therefore taking them is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, I am sure most people think the Dark eldar are evil.

Did you consider the POV?
For the DE, its obviously their right to do as they please and all of us are possible slaves...

Maybe go find an example where the IoM didn't counterattack or fought against ork waaghs, nid fleets or dark crusades.

4M2A wrote:This is another case of the imperium taking a planet for itself without caring about the previous inhabitants. The idea that something isn't worth talking to so we kill it, is a very selfish belief. Being selfish is usually considered a bad thing.

Another case? Rather no case at all.

Did anyone say the IoM isn't bad?
Is any race in 40k not focused on their own agenda? Selfish they are, bad they are......

4M2A wrote:At the time the humans took the planets, eldar did live on planets, and orks infested many more planets. The idea that orks let them have the planets is not the case. Orks will only surrender to Orks. Otherwise they will fight until they have been wiped out.

Eldar? the same that moved home to their craftworlds instead of planetbound life?
Again, if orks or their spores make a world an ork planet, the whole galaxy belongs to them in this POV.
Happy orks....

Humans know the danger of orks spreading freely and reduce them as long as they can before a waaagh becomes unstoppable.
Would you prefer the IoM to let them prosper and walz over small empires like Tau?

Nids need to be intercepted, as unchecked fleets will grow and learn too much from their food.
Remember the blurb where the Tau weren't able to outdo the nids in engeneering? ( nid codex IIRC ).

Chaos is the "natural enemy" and the IoM has to oppose it. No choice here.

4M2A wrote:The Tau want to defeat chaos, nids and crons as much as the imperium does. The only reason they do it less is that they are smaller so have less power. Saying they have the right to the galaxy because of this is just saying if your powerful your good, which is far from the truth. I'm also not sure how the Tau are just sitting around when they are having a much harder time taking planets that the imperium did. The IoM had huge armies and fought enemies that were fragmented and outnumbered. The Tau are fighting against a huge organisation which is well coordinated and much larger than the Tau empire.

Tau know nothing about chaos or nids or C'tan as their last bits of background in 5th ed codizes shows.
And yes, I say who is good is considered by who has the power to write the books, as good isn't defined in 40k like it would be in a RPG. So were back to good/evil vs lack of such concept in 40k.

Its interesting when you give the IoM the advantage of outnumbering their fragmented foes, because its the opposite.
The IoM is the one with overstretched lines and small empires like Tau benefit from this.

The point still is, Imperia will claim the right to rule by power. Examples are there and I doubt you need me to research them for you.

Kilkrazy wrote:
So humans never sent a fleet to sterilise the Tau homeworld for colonisation?
Humans never launched the Damocles Crusade?

Interesting, I never knew that. It just shows what nonsense you pick up from reading Imperial history.

So its nonsense if its Imperial? Wasn't aware how biased our Mod is.

I think the blurb of explorator fleets marking worlds for colonization mentioned cleansing or terraforming as option.
Could be wrong.

But the Damocles crusade was a retaliation, as the Tau invaded imperial space and imperial worlds. Timeline does matter.
See, your good guys try to conquer planets with populations of a different race.
Are they evil now, too?

Everyone knows that Chaos is the least evil and are easy to reason with. The pen is mightier than the Chainaxe!

Everyone knows that Chaos is the least evil and are easy to reason with. The pen is mightier than the Chainaxe!