Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There was an interesting (read 'never-ending') debate on whether it also took away Abbadon's 4++ save too...

Cus it improved his Invun save granted by his termi armour :L?

And seeing as it wasn't a Mark of Tzeentch it didn't give him a 6++?



Or am i flame Baiting here ?

Haha yeah, he has a 4++ save, which theoretically is his 5++ for Terminator Armour improved by +1 for Mark of Tzeentch....

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

IIRC it doesn't even make his saving throw 2++, if it did that, we wouldn't have an argument. Instead it makes his SAVING throw an invul save. Since his saving throw would usually be a 2+, he has a 2++. The qquestion is now, whether that 2+ saving throw come from mega armor, or from him being Ghazzy. I say it comes from his armor, thus can be destroyed by a shield breaker shot.

Im with dash on how that would work against Ghaz. The prophet of the WAAAGH! is a special rule, not a piece of wargear. How bout you guys list all the wargear that confers an invulnerable save. Go ahead, infact while your at it list all the ORK wargear that confers an invulnerable save. Ill give the first one of you that can show proof that the Prophet of the Waaaaagh! is a piece of wargear, a fresh $50 bill.


Now taking away his 5+ due to cybork body is an easy yes, because THAT is a piece of wargear.

We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

The real question is whether an Ork in Mega Armour (or 'eavy armour for that matter) still has his 6+ Orky Hide save underneath, and then whether or not the Waaagh!! energy makes all Ghazzy's saves Invulnerable, or just one, since it says "during this period [Ghazzy's] saving throw is invulnerable", which suggests that it's whichever saving throw he makes, instead of a specific one.

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.

Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.

Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

I think you horribly, horribly misinterpreted that.

Not sure if ive mis-read but has anyone noticed in C: CSM termies and or lords don't get their invuns from their armour it just says 5+ invun so this means vindicare can't break their saves as its not wargear



and in main post i recommend a brotherhood champion if not just lots of small arms fire or a fast vehicle he just can't catch or long ranged shoot enough heavy bolter Rbs at him and he would fail something pretty quick.

ChrisWWII wrote:We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

KingCracker wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:We're not saying that it's a piece of wargear. We're saying that the rule makes the 'save' invulnerable, and the 2+ save is granted by the mega armor, thus the save is from wargear in an indirect way.

Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

Yes, that is correct. The Mega Armour grants a 2+ armour save, and the folks here are arguing that on the Waaaugh!, Mega Armour is giving Ghazghkull a 2++ invul save. So that they can shield break his mega armour. =p Its not an idea supported by the rules in any way though. Mega Armour doesn't grant invulnerable saves.

Here's a question then!

Saint Celestine gets a 2+ invun if she uses the right act of faith as it makes her armour save invunerable. I'd say shield breaker would work on this as it's the same principle is it not?

Dashofpepper wrote:

Actually, that should about settle it.

Where Ghazghkull has a 2+ armour save, 5++ natural invul save, and a 6+ armour save...on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! he now gets a 2++ invul save instead of a 2+ armour save. A 2++ Invul save instead of a 5++ invul save. And a 2++ invul save instead of a 6+ armour save.
Shield break his 2++ away, he's got two more of them lined up, neither from wargear.

I think the fact remains that as far as I know, the WAAAGHing Ghazzie gets his regular saves as an invul save, so you can break his first 2++ invul save. Yes, he still has 2 other saves, so you'll still get to roll to save, but the 2++ invul save is gone.

KingCracker wrote:
Doesnt the shield breaker say a piece of wargear that grants an invulnerable save? Again, I dont own the codex and only read it once, so Im a tad foggy on the wordings of rules.

Indeed it does. Our argument is that since Ghazzies WAAAGH rules say his SAVE become invulnerable, not that he gets a 2++ save. If it said he got a 2++ save, then I'll switch sides right away. However, it doesn't, it makes his saves invulnerable, and his 2++ invul save comes from his 2+ armor save, which is given to him by his mega armor, which--as a piece of Wargear--can be destroyed by a shield breaker shot. The invul save that is, I'm not saying his mega armor is gone now...just that the invul save he got as a result of it is gone.

I think this bears repeating.

Ghazzie has a 2+ Armor Save from his Mega Armor.
Prophet of the WAAAGH makes his 'saving throw' invulnerable.
Since he has a 2+ Armor Save, his saving thow while under Prophet of the WAAAGH is invulnerable.
This 2++ invul save comes about as a result of the intereaction between a piece of wargear (the mega armor's 2+ save) and a special rule (makeing the saving throw invulnerable)
Thus, the 2++ invul save is granted, albeit indirectly, by a piece of Wargear, as if Ghazzy did not have his Mega Armor, he would not have his 2+ save to make invulnerable.

Throw the deceiver at him.

Problem fix number 1: Hit-and run, good with pathfinders cuz of their d-fish and str 5 shots.

Problem fix number 2: railgun.

Problem fix number 3: JSJ with FB.

Problem fix number 4: sneak up behind ghazzy and pants him then run away. He will be so embarrassed that he will just leave.

Problem fix number 5: Diplomacy.

Every single option (not 4) is unique to the Tau, cuz were just that good.

So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

Indeed.

And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

Dashofpepper wrote:

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:So by that logic if you use the shieldbreaker round on the 2++ then he loses that piece of wargear correct? So after the WAAAGGGGHHH!!!!! He would no longer have mega-armour. . . That is rather silly if you ask me.

Indeed.

And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

They don't all turn into 2++, they all turn invulnerable, not sure where your getting your facts from...

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

im2randomghgh wrote:

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

No...that's just making things up. It destroys wargear that grant invulnerable saves.

So if it works, Ghazghkull would lose his mega-armour.

However, Mega Armour doesn't grant an invul save. Its right there in the codex. =p

Dashofpepper wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

@ Unforgiven, It wouldn't take his MA, it would take the inv property of it away.

No...that's just making things up. It destroys wargear that grant invulnerable saves.

So if it works, Ghazghkull would lose his mega-armour.

However, Mega Armour doesn't grant an invul save. Its right there in the codex. =p

It DOES grant an inv save, one turn a game *troll smile*

Bloodhorror wrote:Take the Termi Armour off and he no longer has a 2+ or a 5++

But you do have a Sexual Assualt Charge.

Terminators don't file charges--they issue them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alphacerberus wrote:Not sure if ive mis-read but has anyone noticed in C: CSM termies and or lords don't get their invuns from their armour it just says 5+ invun so this means vindicare can't break their saves as its not wargear

as a CSM player it pains me to say you've misread. In the wargear section on Terminator Armour (p. 86), it says "A model wearing terminator armour has a 2+ Armour Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save."

Dashofpepper wrote:
And ChrisWWII, Ghazghkull has THREE unique sources of 2++ saves on the Waaaugh. *ALL* of his saving throws turn into 2++ saves. His regular invul *also* turns into a 2++ save. Not the same 2++ being claimed to be granted by the Mega Armour 2++. So if you shield break his wargear, he still has a 2++ because his 5+ innate invulnerable save has also been turned into a 2++ invulnerable save; which is *not* granted by wargear.

To be honest, I'm not sure where you're pulling that. Ghazzies rules for Prophet of the Waagh say nothing about making all his saving throws 2+ invulnerables. It just says that his saving throw becomes invulnerable. Since he's in mega armor, and his armor save is a 2+, his thrown save becomes a 2++. If he just hard 'Ard Boy armor, it'd be a 4++, and if he had just his regular Orkyness it's be a 6++. I'm not sure where you're saying he has three 2++, as I only see one source of a 2+ armor save in Ghazzies profile.

I agree that it is pants on head stupid to say that the Vindies shield breaker destroys mega or Terminator armor. I pray they fix it in the FAQ, but going by the grammar of the RAW, we have to say that his 2++ invul save can be broken by shieldbreaker. Now, would I play it as it destroys his armor for the rest of the game too? No, cause that's just stupid, but thanks to bad wording, that is RAW.

If you can show me where in the Codex it says that Ghazzy, while on his Waaagh gets a 2++ save I'll believe you. However, my reading says that it doesn't change his saves to a 2++, it just changes them into an invulnerable save, instead of an armor save.

Demiurg Stronghold Battleship class-My pride and joy. Just thought I'd put that out there

im2randomghgh wrote:

Problem fix number 4: sneak up behind ghazzy and pants him then run away. He will be so embarrassed that he will just leave.

That'd never happen if Makari was still around.






*snif*

ChrisWWII wrote:


Since he's in mega armor, and his armor save is a 2+, his thrown save becomes a 2++.

That is correct. He gets a 2++ save. However, the invulnerable save isn't granted by the Mega Armour, its granted by the Prophet of the Waaaugh - which is not wargear.

But if he wasn't in Mega Armor, then his invul save wouldn't be a 2++, it'd be whatever his highest save was. If he was in power armor it'd be a 3++, carapace a 4++. That's the crux of what we're saying here.

Prophet of the WAAAGH does not say Ghazzie gets a 2++...it just says he gets his save as an invul save. Since his save comes from his armor, the invul save is coming from his armor as well, since the invul sae is just a transformation of the armor save into an invul save.

First to clear out all the misquoting:

"Shield Braker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."(Codex: Grey Knights pg. 53)

"Mega Armor:[fluff] Mega armor confers a 2+ armor save and includes both a twin-linked shoota and a power klaw. A model wearing mega armor has the Slow and Purposeful special rule."(Codex: Orks pg. 39)

"Prophet of the Waagh!: Ghazghkull's Waaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable." (Codex: Orks pg. 58)

Prophet of the Waagh! grants Ghazghkull's an invulnerable saving throw, not Mega armor or any other piece of wargear. Mega armor never ever grants an invulnerable save, not even during the Waaagh!, as some people claim, none of the rules tell you to change the wargear or it's save. Note that any cover save Ghazghkull has would become invulnerable, too. Mega armor can not be affected by Shield Braker in any way. During a Waagh! the mega armor still grants an armor save, which is then turned into an invulnerable save by PotW!. This is not the same as granting an invulnerable save. A fictional "armor breaker" which removes any armor saves, would still be able to remove the 2+ save during Ghazghkull's Waaagh!, and in turn decrease the invulnerable save to his cover/cybork save.

If you'd want to get to really hair-splitty RAW, there is no rule stating saves printed on a statlines are actually the exact same one the piece of armor that model is wearing confers. It just tells you worn armor confers a saving throw, but not the other way arround.

This has come up on YMDC multiple times, and there has been not rules backup for Shieldbreaker working on anything but cybork for Ghazghkull Thrakka.

Im glad some people are getting it. I dunno how many times I can point out that the Prophet of the WAAAAGH! ISNT A PIECE OF WARGEAR. And the shield breaker states right in its own profile, that it negates the invulnerable granted by wargear. Seems to me that some GK players just want an easy way to kill off the 1 thing we have that puts on waders and walks through their army.

While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.