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so The wargear grants his Save. Waaagh makes his Save into an invun.

Shieldbreaker gets rid of any Invunerable Save granted by Wargear correct?

YAY FOR BEING RIGHT!

I take it back! Enjoy your moment of glory, chaps!

Bloodhorror wrote:so The wargear grants his Save. Waaagh makes his Save into an invun.

Shieldbreaker gets rid of any Invunerable Save granted by Wargear correct?

That's how I read it.

So by far the most reliable way to kill Ghazzie is to shoot him with the shield breaker, repeatedly if necessary, and then keep shooting him with Vindicare or waltz over with S5+ power weapons and gib him in CC.

Does the Shield Breaker round remove one Invulnerable Save per shot? Or all with one? So, for example, would you have to do one for the 2++ and again for the 5++?

Or what if you hit him and removed the 5++ and the Ork player then Waaagh!'d to get the 2++, would they still be able to use it having been Shield Broken previously?


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I should really be able to answer this, I have both Codex: Orks and Codex: Grey Knights in front of me.

(Sidenote: I loved Daemonhunters but, having bought the GK Codex to see if it was as bad as I feared, it's worse. I don't think I'm going to play them again... Wait, so my Terminator Armour gets Terminator Armour? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaard!)

Awesome !


Shame i don't play Grey Knights ¬¬


Darn Dark Eldar, Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines!!!

Back to Blasting the Sh*t outta him with Splinter shots, Disintegrator Cannons and Other goodies ^^

sourclams wrote:And what does he get saves from?

Wargear. Cybork Body and Mega Armor.

Take away the wargear (what shield breaker affects) and he has no save.

This is unlike a Carnifex, for example, which simply has a 3+ save.

shield breaker does not affect mega armor as mega armor does not provide an invulnerable save. The wargear section refers you to page 39, "Mega Armor confers a 2+ save and includes both a twin linked shoota and a power claw"
The wargear does not provide an invulnerable, therefore it is not removed. The special rule provides the invulnerableness.

Waaagh says his save is invulnerable. We assume that means his 2+ from mega armor, but who knows maybe he has another 2+ from somewhere else. It is simply in his profile as 2+

There's two ways to read it.

One, Ghazzie is a normal Warboss with additional special character rules, with the 6+ t-shirt save that is innate to a warboss. Because Ghazzie has Mega Armor and Cybork, he also benefits from a PK, t/l Shoota, 2+/5++, all due to his wargear allotment.

In this reading, Shield Breaker takes away all of his saves during his WAAAGH. Why? Because the saves granted by his wargear become 2++/5++. This is the effect of the WAAAGH, not, as you wrote:

The wargear does not provide an invulnerable, therefore it is not removed. The special rule provides the invulnerableness.

The special rule does NOT provide an invulnerable. The special rule modifies the wargear to provide an invulnerable. That's the distinction that makes or breaks the Shield Breaker.

There is, however, as you note, a second way to read it. The second way to read it is that Ghazzie is not a normal warboss, and simply has a 2+ save. In addition he has Cybork Body for a 5++ and Mega Armor for an additional 2+ save with a PK and Big Shoota and the SAP debuff.

Under this reading, WAAAGH could convert Ghazzie's 'innate' 2+ save into a 2++ save, the shield breaker would still ignore his 5++ from Cybork and his 2++ from Mega Armor, but would bounce off of this third, 'innate' save.

Because, to me, the second reading makes no sense, I still think that shield breaker goes straight through WAAAGH-modified Mega Armor.

Hmm, that said, sourclams, none of the other Ork characters have armour saves that relate to their Wargear. They're all just assigned a value. Zagstruk gets a 4+ yet he has no Ard Boyz armour. Mad Dok Grotsnik has a 4+ save but he only has a Cybork Body...

There is nothing that states Ghazzy's 2+ save specifically comes from his Mega Armour rather than something which he merely has himself, and you can have a save come from two different places, or more.

Well seeing as the model doesn't have any other explained source of an armour save, one must Assume that the Mega Armour is the source of his 2+ Armour Save

Bloodhorror wrote:Well seeing as the model doesn't have any other explained source of an armour save, one must Assume that the Mega Armour is the source of his 2+ Armour Save

But there is a precedent set by the other Special Characters in Codex: Orks, as I mentioned. People have saves that can not be attributed to any Wargear, there isn't anything to suggest Thraka is any different. Like I mentioned, Zagstrukk has a 4+ save and no Wargear that would explain it.

In which Case GW screwed up there

but for Ghaz, there is a Wargear to represent his lovely 2+ and 5+ (which is what i think Cybork Body is for?)

Hmm well only his stat line is listed on his page or in the summary with the save of 2+. There's no mention of his 5++ or any of his Wargear-boosted stats anywhere, only that he has a Cybork Body.

On that basis, it would seem that they gave him a natural 2+ save AND Mega Armour AND Cybork Body, otherwise it'd say 2+/5+ save in his stats.

Yes, but it also does the same thing with Mega Armoured Nobz...

are you trying to tell me that they have a Natural 2+ Armour save AND Mega Armour?


Mega Armour gives Ghaz his 2+
Cybork Body gives Ghaz his 5++


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Miraclefish wrote:On that basis, it would seem that they gave him a natural 2+ save AND Mega Armour AND Cybork Body, otherwise it'd say 2+/5+ save in his stats.

Also using your Theory, Bloodthirsters have a 4+ Invun and Iron Hide.

However it only says the 4+ Invun in the Stat Line?

Think about it this way, a Space Marine has a 3+ armor save, thanks to power armor. It's listed in his wargear, and thus listed as his save. However, if you took away the power armor, the Marine would lose the 3+ armor save, I'm sure we can all agree on that.

I'd argue that, if Ghazzy lakced his Mega Armor, he'd also lack his 2+ save. It's just illogical to assume that he has a 2+ save just for being Ghazzy, and the burden of proof is on Exergy to show that the 2+ save is innate to Ghazzy, rather than being gifted by the armor. I agree with sourclams that it's illogical to assume that it's innate, unless proven otherwise.

I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

Exactly what i was trying to say ^^!

Terminators and Strom Shields are a good example as well.

2+ due to TDA and 3++ for SS.

Take the SS off and he has a 5++ for being in Termi Armour.

Take the Termi Armour off and he no longer has a 2+ or a 5++

But you do have a Sexual Assualt Charge.

I'd say those are the exception to the rule that armor saves are granted by wargear rather than innate. MOST models have a wargear item that grants them their armor save, HOWEVER, some models, like the Orks you listed, do not, and thus count their armor saves as innate. Likely due to a typing mix up somewhere along the line, but that's what we have to work with, so we can't do much about it.

Miraclefish wrote:I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

There just REALLY unlucky

Miraclefish wrote:I actually agree. But what about, for example, the other Ork characters who have saves unrelated to/unaccounted for by their wargear?

Yours is a good point and the short answer is: I don't know how to account for it. What I do know is that there's very little internal or external conssitency with GW writing due to a total lack of editing, so unlike with a technical manual I expect there to be a lot of gray areas that the rules leave ambiguous.

If Zagstruck had Ghazzie's WAAAAGH, then I would be forced to say that the shield breaker could not take away his 4++ because I can't identify where that armor save comes from. But because I can (or at least I think I can) identify the origin of Ghazzie's 2+ armor save, and it's congruent with a Meganobz' 2+ armor save, and furthermore this is congruent with how other special characters like Lysander, Calgar, and Draigo are written, I'm willing to say that shield breaker should work in this case.

WOOO! Lysander!

Sourclams, I think you've got the bones of it. Now, here's one that'll pickle your noggin:

Pre-Waaaagh!, Ghazzy gets shot by a Shield Breaker, losing him his 5++ for the Cybork Armour, leaving him with a 2+ save.

Next turn, he Waaagh!s, does his armour save become 2++?


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im2randomghgh wrote:WOOO! Lysander!

Yes, quite...

Shieldbreaker destroys wargear that confer an invulnerable save.

Mega-Armour does not confer an invulnerable save - neither a 2+ nor a 5+. It has a clear codex entry explaining precisely what it does. The fact that Ghazghkull Thraka can once per game declare a Waaaugh! and gain a game turn 2++ invulnerable save does not mean that the invulerable save comes from his mega armour. It does not. It comes from his Waaaugh special rule.

Shieldbreaker lets you kill wargear that gives invul saves. It doesn't let you negate special rules that confer invulnerable saves, nor does it give you the power to add to the wargear section and ink in associations between invul saves and wargear that doesn't grant it.

Might as well attach his invul save to his big shoota. Poof. No more gun for you Ghazghkull. Attach it to his Adamantium Skull. Poof! You just lost your invul save *and* Eternal Warrior. Take that.

In fact, that's a great idea. When I start playing GK with my Vindicare, I'm going to start claiming that IC invulnerable saves that aren't specified come from the Iron Halo, or whatever gives the character EW. So I can break it, then ID them.

The only reason I'd disagree with you Dash is because, apparently, the WAAAGH special rule says that it turns his save into an invul save. Now, we agree that the mega armor confers a 2+ ARMOR save, and that it in and of itself does not confer an invul save. HOWEVER, the WAAGH special rule also does not give a '2++' invul save, it just says that it makes Ghazzies existing saves invulnerable, and since Ghaz gets his regular saves from his mega armor, he gets the invul save from his mega armor as well, thanks to an interaction between the special rule and his wargear.

If Ghaz didn't have mega armor, but instead wore flak armor, his invul save would only be a 5++ since his save that gets turned into an invul save would only be a 5+.

I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.


The rule says his Saving throw becomes 2++, not that his Mega Armour's saving throw becomes invuln, or that his Invuln save becomes better. His saving throw, not his armours or wargear's. It might even mean that his basic 6+ save from being an Ork would get better.

Anvildude wrote:I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.

that has no effect on how the rules work

Dashofpepper wrote:Shieldbreaker lets you kill wargear that gives invul saves. It doesn't let you negate special rules that confer invulnerable saves, nor does it give you the power to add to the wargear section and ink in associations between invul saves and wargear that doesn't grant it.

WAAGH doesn't give an invul save. It turns his armor save, which is granted by wargear, into an invuln save. You can't have a wargear-granted armor save that isn't a wargear-granted invuln save when the special rule turns your armor save into an invuln save.

The only thing left to argue over, then, is whether Ghaz simply has a 2+ armor save, or if his 2+ armor save results from his Mega Armor.

Anvildude wrote:I told you guys, the 2++ comes from the vortex of pure Waaagh!! energy swirling around him as he channels his gods.


The rule says his Saving throw becomes 2++, not that his Mega Armour's saving throw becomes invuln, or that his Invuln save becomes better. His saving throw, not his armours or wargear's. It might even mean that his basic 6+ save from being an Ork would get better.

The SVoW swirls AROUND HIS MA!!! Hence the whole rule thing...

Thing is, the rule doesn't say it's his armour save that becomes 2++, just his "saving throw". His Mega Armour has a 2+, his Cyborky bitz have a 5++, and his skin and very being has a 6+. Since you can only take one saving throw per wound, that suggests that it makes all his saves 2++, including the non-wargear one granted by his skin.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The SVoW swirls AROUND HIS MA!!! Hence the whole rule thing...

Are you on Crack....?





Moving on, i can see this issue having Equal Voteage, so i'm bailing and leaving it until the FAQ

If it'll ever appear....