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I don't even PLAY Grey Knights, and I'm as aghast at this ruling as everyone else. I have no desire to see Grey Knights become any more powerful, and I have no incentive to do so, given as I'll only be facing Grey Knights, not pplaying as them.

However, I have to repeat, I am not syaing that Propphet of the WAAAGH! is a piece of Wargear. I know it's not. No one is disputing that it is a special rule. HOWEVER, if you read the rule it does not say 'Ghazzie has a 2+ invulnerable save'. It says his saving throw is invulnerable. Prophet does not give him an invulnerable throw, it just makes his existing throw invulnerable.

Ghazzie gets his 2+ armor save from his mega armor, no one seems to be arguing this. If he didn't have his mega armor, he wouldn't have a 2+ armor save. Prophet turns this 2+ armor save (granted by Mega Armor) into an invulnerable save. The save is still given by mega armor, just modified from stanard mega armor rules by the special rule 'Prophet of the WAAAGH!' Yes, mega armor never grants an invul save, until it is acted upon by the Prophet of the WAAAGH special rule, which turns its save into an invulnerable save.

If someone can show me either: a) Where it says Prophet of the WAAAGH grants a 2+ invulnerable save instead of just modifying existing saves into invulnerable or b) show that Ghazzy's 2+ armor save is intrinsic to him, and not granted by a piece of wargear, then I'll switch sides immediately. Until then, I stand by what I say that Ghazzies 2+ invul save can be broken by a shieldbreaker, due to being granted indirectly by his armor.

ChrisWWII wrote:But if he wasn't in Mega Armor, then his invul save wouldn't be a 2++, it'd be whatever his highest save was. If he was in power armor it'd be a 3++, carapace a 4++. That's the crux of what we're saying here.

Prophet of the WAAAGH does not say Ghazzie gets a 2++...it just says he gets his save as an invul save. Since his save comes from his armor, the invul save is coming from his armor as well, since the invul sae is just a transformation of the armor save into an invul save.

The problem with this argument....is that you're making an attempt to logically explain how something comes into existence in 40k. You may not do so. You have a rulebook and a codex. You do not have permission to assign attributes or saves to wargear that they do not have, to either logically or fluffily add benefits to wargear that do not already exist there....and that's what this is. Mega Armour does not grant a 2++. Wargear that grants invulnerable saves are *very* clearly outlined in their codex entries. Find yourself an entry for "Stormshield" and read it. Read the Mega-Armour Entry. You have no room, permission, or reason to start creating rules to suit your needs like this.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! does not say that for one turn, his Mega-Armour gains a 2++ invulnerable save. Nor does it say that for one turn, any piece of his wargear grants him a 2++ invulnerable save. Instead, it instructs you to take your saves as invulnerable saves for a turn.

Prophet of the WAAAUGH! is GRANTING the 2++.
Mega-Armour is CAUSING the Invul save to have a value of 2++.
Mega-Armour is not granting the 2++.

Let me say that again.

Shield Breaker negates Invulnerable saves granted by wargear.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

Shield-breaking Mega-Armour doesn't remove his invulnerable save, it merely changes the value of it - because the invulnerable save doesn't depend on the wargear, which is the requirement for shield-breaker...meaning that you can't shield break non-invul save granting wargear like Mega-Armour.

However....this crap has been said over and over and...over and over in this thread, albeit in a bunch of different ways. What matters is this: It won't fly in a tournament, I'll bet money that no major event organizer would let this one stand. And if this rules nancying were happening at a tournament I was judging....*grins*

I'll ignore the more powerful stuff, as it is implying I'm discussing this for my own good, which is false and insulting. It is highly unlikely for this situation to ever come up for me, and if it does, I want it played by the rules, not by the way most profitable to me.

A unit's saving throw is not the same as the armor saving throw. The saving throw is the best one of your saves.

until it is acted upon by the Prophet of the WAAAGH special rule, which turns its save into an invulnerable save.

This is the wrong part. The rule does not turn the armor's save into an invulnerable save, it turn's Ghazghkull's save into an invulnerable save(exact wording). His save is either from cover or his wargear or another units wargear(KFF). It could even be his thick hide making him 2+. You do not know in advance. In order to figure out his saving throw, you have to check his cybork save, his cover save and his armor save, then pick the best one. Up till now none of those are changed in any way. Then you change the saving throw to invulnerable because of the Prophet of the Waagh! rule. If you compare this to the Shield Breaker wording, you'll notice that shield breaker "destroys" saves before any of this happened, thus finding only a 2+ armor save and doing nothing to it.

b) show that Ghazzy's 2+ armor save is intrinsic to him, and not granted by a piece of wargear

WH40k does not work that way. There is no rule showing any stat line save is ever actually gained from the wargear piece and would be lost if the wargear is lost. Mad Dok Grotznik has a 4+ armor save without any armor even modeled onto him, let alone mentioned in the rules, for example. A second example would be ork boyz. There isn't even armor granting a 6+ save in the codex. Also see BRB pg.7 which only has a really vague definition of armor saves, basically allowing you to call any armor save "intrinsic" by RAW.

Just because his best save comes from wargear, which is in turn made into an invulnerable save, it still is not an invulnerable save granted from wargear. Without Prophet of the Waaagh! he would not have this save. Ghazghkull Thrakka does not wear a single piece of wargear granting him a 2++ save, which means the save is actually granted by a special rule, based on the best save, no matter the source, even if the actual word "granted" does not appear. There is no such thing as "granted indirectly by wargear", even if there was, it would still be different from "granted by an item of wargear" and unaffected by shield breakers. Unless you can point to a piece of wargear granting a 2++ save, Ghazghkull doesn't have one.

Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

QuietOrkmi wrote:Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

well...

as helpfull as THAT was ¬¬

Dashofpepper wrote:
Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

That I can agree with. Prophet grants it...Mega Armor defines it works for me, and avoids the idiocity of destroying wargear like mega armor.

Glad to be on the same side then.

And Bloodhorror, QuietOrkmi was being helpful to the OP - the rest of the discussion has been a YMDC tangent.

The easiest way I have found to kill ghazghul is to bog down the unit he is in with as much as you can. For example, if Ghazghul is in a unit of 30 boys, and I assault the boyz with 2 squads of khorne berzerkers(not impossible to set up) then you can wipe out all of the boyz around ghazghul and either over run him, or make him take tons of saves due to combat res.

Ghazghul is a beast, but if you need to kill him, combat res is the way to do it in my opinion.

You could still use the Vinidicate to knock off cybork's 5++ invul save, then just pour AP2 ire into him. Without the invul save, he should go down fairly quickly to lascannons and plasma fire.

ChrisWWII wrote:You could still use the Vinidicate to knock off cybork's 5++ invul save, then just pour AP2 ire into him. Without the invul save, he should go down fairly quickly to lascannons and plasma fire.

Ghazghkull Thraka tends to be in one of three places:

1. In a battlewagon, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
2. In close combat, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
3. In cover, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't get a benefit for him not having a 5+ Invul save.

Bloodhorror wrote:

QuietOrkmi wrote:Ork wisdum:

Shoota de choppa...

Choppa de shoota...

Orkservations:
Ghaz is quite choppy... Ork wisdum days we shoota him boss.

well...

as helpfull as THAT was ¬¬

it was very relevant to the OP actually... just not as relevant to what you guys have turned the argument into. the op wasn't askign how many saves ghaz gets but how to deal with him from 2 specific armies, SM and tau ... somehow it morphed into if a specific rule for a different army than OP listed can deal with Ghaz... really after the first page its gone to gak.

With all Ork Taktics aside...

You have a few options with dealing with Ghaz...

1: Blow up the transport he rode in on... Then the unit has to take a pinning test, then tank shock the unit repeatedly until he starts to flee or uses his Waaagh! prematurely... proceed to step 2...
2: Wait the entire turn out that he has his 2++ save. then smack him around when he only has a 5++ save to fall back on.

As for the shield breaker debate, I will meet halfway. You can get rid of the 2++ save while he has a 2++ save... You cannot get rid of something that never existed or has yet to exist. Shield break before the WAAAGH! and all you can nab is the 5++ save. Shoot him during the WAAAGH! and you can nab the 2++ save. If I gave anymore to the other side of the debate, you could theoretically get rid of any save if the save could possibly become invulnerable for any reason...

Dashofpepper wrote:

Ghazghkull Thraka tends to be in one of three places:

1. In a battlewagon, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
2. In close combat, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't hurt him.
3. In cover, where lascannon and plasma fire doesn't get a benefit for him not having a 5+ Invul save.

I should have added 'if he's in the open with no body around him, like no half-decent Ork player would do'.

In all honesty, my advice on Thraka is to try and kill his transport as far away as possible, so he can't get to you as fast. (Assuming a Mech Ork army). If he's leading a Green Tide, then pray you have enough templates to thin out his ablative wounds/extra attacks. There's no real easy way to kill him, if your opponent is anwhere near decent.

Someone mentioned throwing the Deceiver at him...

But even that is not optimal. =p There are usually much juicier targets for the Deceiver to assault. Nobs that get insta-gibbed with no saves allowed, Boy mobs that can't hurt him, Battlewagons...every game I play against Thraka, the Deceiver is needed elsewhere, and Ghazghkull romps around trying to get into base with monoliths, which I've thus far managed to avoid all but once.

I honestly don't think that there is a "best way" to kill Ghazghkull; but rather, you should look for effective means to neutralize his close combat utility.

Jidmah wrote:While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

Yea cause EVERY army has force weapons and cleansing flame

also have you tried yarrick

Jidmah wrote:First to clear out all the misquoting:

"Shield Braker: When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle. Remaining saves (if any) can then be taken."(Codex: Grey Knights pg. 53)

"Mega Armor:[fluff] Mega armor confers a 2+ armor save and includes both a twin-linked shoota and a power klaw. A model wearing mega armor has the Slow and Purposeful special rule."(Codex: Orks pg. 39)

"Prophet of the Waagh!: Ghazghkull's Waaagh! lasts the remainder of that player turn and all the following player turn. During this period Ghazghkull's saving throw is invulnerable." (Codex: Orks pg. 58)

Prophet of the Waagh! grants Ghazghkull's an invulnerable saving throw, not Mega armor or any other piece of wargear. Mega armor never ever grants an invulnerable save, not even during the Waaagh!, as some people claim, none of the rules tell you to change the wargear or it's save. Note that any cover save Ghazghkull has would become invulnerable, too. Mega armor can not be affected by Shield Braker in any way. During a Waagh! the mega armor still grants an armor save, which is then turned into an invulnerable save by PotW!. This is not the same as granting an invulnerable save. A fictional "armor breaker" which removes any armor saves, would still be able to remove the 2+ save during Ghazghkull's Waaagh!, and in turn decrease the invulnerable save to his cover/cybork save.

If you'd want to get to really hair-splitty RAW, there is no rule stating saves printed on a statlines are actually the exact same one the piece of armor that model is wearing confers. It just tells you worn armor confers a saving throw, but not the other way arround.

This has come up on YMDC multiple times, and there has been not rules backup for Shieldbreaker working on anything but cybork for Ghazghkull Thrakka.

Without the MA, the save would not be 2++. It would be 5++. So the 2 part of the 2++ is from mega armour. MA=wargear. Without the wargear, he would not have 2++ save, therefore Shield Breaker would remove the 2++, with Ghazzy choosing between a 5++ or a 2+.

See Dash's argument at the top of this page. He nicely refutes that argument. Considering I was the one arguing it for a good 3 pages, I think I can vouch to say that it's a very convincing argument.

5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner.

Goodbye Ghaz.

@im2randomghgh: Your argument is irrelevant, and refuted incontrovertibly by an uncontested claim.

@InquisitorVaron: 5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner....are going to get eaten up. They'll strike first, bounce off a 2++ invulnerable save, and even if one gets through, Ghazghkull can't be Instant-Killed. In return....well, lets just say that you're not going to come out ahead.

Dashofpepper wrote:@im2randomghgh: Your argument is irrelevant, and refuted incontrovertibly by an uncontested claim.

@InquisitorVaron: 5 Termies with Force-Halberds and 1 with Brotherhood banner....are going to get eaten up. They'll strike first, bounce off a 2++ invulnerable save, and even if one gets through, Ghazghkull can't be Instant-Killed. In return....well, lets just say that you're not going to come out ahead.

Uncontested claim? This entire conversation has been about contesting that claim...not much else has been said since pg.1...

Dashofpepper wrote:
The problem with this argument....is that you're making an attempt to logically explain how something comes into existence in 40k. You may not do so. You have a rulebook and a codex. You do not have permission to assign attributes or saves to wargear that they do not have, to either logically or fluffily add benefits to wargear that do not already exist there....and that's what this is. Mega Armour does not grant a 2++. Wargear that grants invulnerable saves are *very* clearly outlined in their codex entries. Find yourself an entry for "Stormshield" and read it. Read the Mega-Armour Entry. You have no room, permission, or reason to start creating rules to suit your needs like this.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! does not say that for one turn, his Mega-Armour gains a 2++ invulnerable save. Nor does it say that for one turn, any piece of his wargear grants him a 2++ invulnerable save. Instead, it instructs you to take your saves as invulnerable saves for a turn.

Prophet of the WAAAUGH! is GRANTING the 2++.
Mega-Armour is CAUSING the Invul save to have a value of 2++.
Mega-Armour is not granting the 2++.

Let me say that again.

Shield Breaker negates Invulnerable saves granted by wargear.

Prophet of the Waaaugh! is the special rule GRANTING the invul save.
Mega-Armour is the wargear defining the VALUE of the invul save.

Shield-breaking Mega-Armour doesn't remove his invulnerable save, it merely changes the value of it - because the invulnerable save doesn't depend on the wargear, which is the requirement for shield-breaker...meaning that you can't shield break non-invul save granting wargear like Mega-Armour.

That claim.

I wasn't asking which claim, I was stating that the last few pages have been entirely devoted to contesting it.

im2randomghgh:

Its been addressed and refuted. Shieldbreaker does not take away Ghazghkull's 2++. If you wish to explain why you think it does, you need to read what ChrisWWII just quoted to you....and refute my argument.

You can opinine all day long that Ghazghkull gets no saves, that trees are blue, but while incontrovertible evidence stands that declares the opposite of your opinion, all you have is an invalid opinion.

MA(2+) PotW (+)=2++

The Inv. save was made 2++ by the MA (wargear).

2++ is made 2++ by wargear. Smash the Inv. characteristic of the MA with SB rounds, and our orky hero ends up having these options for his save: 2+, 5++, 5+, 6++ and 6+. There are no two ways about it.

im2randomghgh wrote:MA(2+) PotW (+)=2++

The Inv. save was made 2++ by the MA (wargear).

2++ is made 2++ by wargear. Smash the Inv. characteristic of the MA with SB rounds, and our orky hero ends up having these options for his save: 2+, 5++, 5+, 6++ and 6+. There are no two ways about it.

Repeating what has been disproven without addressing what disproved it doesn't lend weight to the disproven argument. I promise. And as demonstrated, proven, written in the codex: The invulnerable save is not granted by the Mega Armour. The value of the Invulnerable save *is* granted by the Mega Armour. However, the invulnerable save stems from "Prophet of the Waaaugh" not from Mega Armour.

I'm repeating myself here, but as further proof, if you were allowed to shield break mega armour - ghazghkull thraka would still have invulnerable saves. He would probably have a 4+ invulnerable save, a 5+ invulnerable save, a 6+ invulnerable save...and it isn't their wargear granting it, it is the Prophet of the Waaaugh! special rule.

Or repeating myself again for you: If you shieldbreak a piece of wargear on Ghazghkull Thraka, and his invulnerable save doesn't go away, then the invulnerable save wasn't granted by the wargear.

And repeating myself again for you in yet another way. Mega armour doesn't grant an invulnerable save, it only tells Prophet of the Waaugh! what kind of invulnerable save that the Prophet special rule is going to give.

I do encourage you to try this in real life though, and tell us all about it.

Dashofpepper is right the rest are wrong, if there is anything more to say about it then move this to the rules section.

As for the OP Dashofpepper is right again, there is no good way to kill him. The best is to take out his transport early and make him crawl towards your line or similarly deny combat to him and thus negate his combat utility.

bagtagger wrote:Dashofpepper is right the rest are wrong, if there is anything more to say about it then move this to the rules section.

As for the OP Dashofpepper is right again, there is no good way to kill him. The best is to take out his transport early and make him crawl towards your line or similarly deny combat to him and thus negate his combat utility.

Or field a GD of Khorne and wipe him out in one/two turns without even realising he was there. Seriously, nothing beats a GD of Khorne in melee, except maybe a GD of Slaanesh, they're about even.

DoP, I still think I'm right, but I will stop arguing for two reasons: 1. I don't run Orks or Ordos so it doesn't affect me-at all, and 2. Because I can't see this going anywhere productive.

KingCracker wrote:

Jidmah wrote:While "Walks through their army" means, he can actually kill something in close combat without being force weaponed or purged by fire.

Yea cause EVERY army has force weapons and cleansing flame

Every army shooting shield breakers does.

I told my Baal pred to sick em and what do you know no more mr big tough im da ork boss.