Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think the other space marine chapters have done way more heroic things and have generaly much more things going on for instance constant crusade, fatal flaws and actually doing some hard fighting *cough cough*horus heresy, instead of writing a big codex and taking all the credit.

Griever wrote:Their Tactical Marines only get one attack.

Pitiful.

So true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blood Devil wrote:I think the other space marine chapters have done way more heroic things and have generaly much more things going on for instance constant crusade, fatal flaws and actually doing some hard fighting *cough cough*horus heresy, instead of writing a big codex and taking all the credit.

When did they take the credit? And they held the Imperium together after the Horus Heresy. They also defeat the first two major hivefleets! Why do they want fatal flaws? Why would any chapter want fatal flaws? Why would anybody want fatal flaws!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Ultramrines though are the leaset relatable chapter because they portray themselves as son darn perfect, there is nothing to relate to apart from the fact at birth they were human. evry other legion had thier flaws.

You to realise all Space Marines were meant to be flawless? They're portrayed as perfect because they're the closest you're going to get to perfect! Do you think the other chapters want to be flawed instead of being perfect?

In my opinion Ultramarines should get access to the CRASSUS ARMORED ASSUALT TRANSPORT

Well, i might not HATE them, but I do dislike them. Can perhaps come from that the friend that showed me this hobby had them and also did the "they're the best because they're the best"...

And then, my first army was BA, which (IMHO) just kicks the smurfs (Couldn't resist ) in every possible way!

There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines.

Robute Gulliman was a boy scout and crammed his vision for the Space Marines down everyone's throat.

But the Ultramarines are just fine.

kronk wrote:There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines.

Robute Gulliman was a boy scout and crammed his vision for the Space Marines down everyone's throat.

But the Ultramarines are just fine.

Robute Gulliam is a Primarch!

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines.

Robute Gulliman was a boy scout and crammed his vision for the Space Marines down everyone's throat.

But the Ultramarines are just fine.

Robute Gulliam is a Primarch!

Primarchs can be too...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luna Dragon wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

Where does it say that every chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Pure geneseed yes, but to be Ultramarine? How are they better than the Emperor and the Chaos Gods? Just because they don't let losses get the better of them and stop them doing their duty, something is wrong with them, something is wrong with the chapters who don't.

Oh, and harken linen mark 2 is just a hater who only reads what he wants to and not the whole thing.

I'm paraphrasing, but; "All codex chapters consider Marneus Calgar their spiritual liege" and "these abarations (who reject the codex) are slowly dieing out."
So every Space Marine is an Ultramarine, and those that aren't are dead. Better tell the BT that they're dieing out. They'll be shocked, outnumbering the smurfs 6:1 like they do.

I'll find a page reference when I can. Might be while.

We're talking about Ultramarines, not the aliens Smurfs

Go and tell Kharn that he is a Ultramarine.

And don't make up quotes!

He isn't a making quotes up, he is paraphrasing them, which although it is a touch dodgy is perfectly acceptable.
Smurfs is a nickname for them like how people call the SW space puppies.
I honestly don't know what you mean by the Kahrn comment so you'll need to explain that further.

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:There's nothing wrong with the Ultramarines.

Robute Gulliman was a boy scout and crammed his vision for the Space Marines down everyone's throat.

But the Ultramarines are just fine.

Robute Gulliam is a Primarch!

So was Horus...

I really dont see the issue, Im 4 books into the HH and it makes sense to have a Gulliman doesn't it?!

There are 20 primarchs, we have the big strong combat brute (Angron) The fast agile Corax, the emo black metal goth (Nighthaunter) steadfast loyal Dorn, Rebellious Horus etc etc etc etc etc

What is wrong with one of the twenty being a more book smart, ridiculously diciplined man of honour like Gulliman?

Being a military man, Robute appeals to me more than any of the others. He was a shining example to the rest, he was as loyal as Dorn, but didn't get his ass kicked as much, he was incredibly disciplined and tactically an absolute genius, what's to dislike?

Im not a kid, Im 31 and i went to Iraq twice, I just dont see the appeal in general to playing the "bad guys" because they suck more!

Think about it, Horus fell hook line and sinker for the Chaos Gods plans. What's good about getting played like a fiddle?

Nighthaunter is like a spoilt teenager, Angron is an idiot, Horus was a fool and played into the hands of the dark Gods.

But Gulliman, was all kinds of awesome, smart, hard as nails, loyal, noble..

And lets be honest, If this was all real, were would you rather live? Ordered wealthy healthy Ultramar, or some gak pit like Fenris?

Not sure if that was directed at me or the anti-Ultramarines in this thread (which gets old)...

I'd never knock Ultramar as a cool place to live or the Ultramarines as jackasses. They're a pretty slick chapter with many foundings after them.

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:
Smurfs is a nickname for them like how people call the SW space puppies.
I honestly don't know what you mean by the Kahrn comment so you'll need to explain that further.

A dumb and stupid nickname and I don't let stupid get away...

Oh, and with Kharn, I was saying that he's a Space Marine and he doesn't want to be Ultramarine.

Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Long ago, a unknown force created the smurfs. The smurfs were a helpful and good race, but like all, they could be corrupted by chaos. The smurfs were now all corrupted, and changed in the evil chaos spawns we now know as Ultramarines..

King Pariah wrote:Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Why do people come up with this made up stupid reasons!? Why do people like to be idiots?! Why!?!

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

Luna Dragon wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Why do people come up with this made up stupid reasons!? Why do people like to be idiots?! Why!?!

You want the actual quote?
Fine here it is

Chapters in the second catagory are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another primarch, but follow the Codex Asartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows...These chapter can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great primarch.

There is more:

Some such as the Blood ANgels strive to be worthy of Guiliman's legacy, but thier recaltricint gene-seed crives them away...for this is the tale of the Ultramarines and all who follow in their example.

Page 24 SM codex.
THAT, is why people dislike/hate them.
Now, stop calling people stupid, keep calm and make the tea.

Luna Dragon wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Why do people come up with this made up stupid reasons!? Why do people like to be idiots?! Why!?!

A better question: Why do you care?

Psienesis wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Why do people come up with this made up stupid reasons!? Why do people like to be idiots?! Why!?!

A better question: Why do you care?

His UltraMarine PJ's have booties...

Have the problem with Mat Ward and leave the army out of it. NO Ultramarine player will ever claim what he wrote as fact or remotely true.

kronk wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

Couldn't it be argued that the Ultramarines flaw is their hubris? I doubt that the Imperial Fists and their successors have forgiven them, or any of the Dorn Supporters. This may cost the Ultramarines one day.

Their supposed "perfection" will make a fall that much harder.

In the metagame though, they're effectively just a template army. It would be nice if the 6th Ed. SM codex would allow us to build on this template a bit more. That and spread the love around. While it makes sense to give them a bit of a spotlight, I think a lot of people resent this fact, which is understandable.

However, each race has a template faction, as the other factions need something detailed enough to deviate from.

According to the codex the Imperial Fists are the second most devout supporters of the codex second only to the Space Wolves... just kidding it's the Ultramarines of course.

kronk wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

So, what you're saying is, that Dorn isn't Stupid?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shigematsu wrote:

kronk wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

Couldn't it be argued that the Ultramarines flaw is their hubris? I doubt that the Imperial Fists and their successors have forgiven them, or any of the Dorn Supporters. This may cost the Ultramarines one day.

Their supposed "perfection" will make a fall that much harder.

In the metagame though, they're effectively just a template army. It would be nice if the 6th Ed. SM codex would allow us to build on this template a bit more. That and spread the love around. While it makes sense to give them a bit of a spotlight, I think a lot of people resent this fact, which is understandable.

However, each race has a template faction, as the other factions need something detailed enough to deviate from.

Do you realise you're saying Imperial Fists and their successors will turn on their Battle-Brothers?!

purplefood wrote:According to the codex the Imperial Fists are the second most devout supporters of the codex second only to the Space Wolves... just kidding it's the Ultramarines of course.

Seems kinda odd to be honest. Though I suppose I was confusing the Black Templars strong defiance to the codex with the Imperial Fists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

So, what you're saying is, that Dorn isn't Stupid?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shigematsu wrote:

kronk wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

kronk wrote:

My only gripe is Gulliman saying "My way is the only way, so fall in line chumps." Obviously that overly simplistic, but there you go.

Not true, they could of had a second civil war, but that would be stupid...

Thanks for proving my point. Gulliman did nearly start a second civil war. Gulliman was forcing the other legions to adopt the Codex Astartes. Many disagreed with his heavy-handed approach and wanted to remain Legion sized and free to follow their own ideals. Dorn and several other primarchs were opposed to Gulliman's efforts to break the Legions into many chapters and follow the Codex Astartes.

As battle lines were being drawn and sides taken, Dorn and is supporters finally backed down and accepted. The legions were split into the second foundings and accepted the Codex Astartes.

Of course, the Space Wolves and Black Templars (along with a few others) still ignore the codex for the most part...

Couldn't it be argued that the Ultramarines flaw is their hubris? I doubt that the Imperial Fists and their successors have forgiven them, or any of the Dorn Supporters. This may cost the Ultramarines one day.

Their supposed "perfection" will make a fall that much harder.

In the metagame though, they're effectively just a template army. It would be nice if the 6th Ed. SM codex would allow us to build on this template a bit more. That and spread the love around. While it makes sense to give them a bit of a spotlight, I think a lot of people resent this fact, which is understandable.

However, each race has a template faction, as the other factions need something detailed enough to deviate from.

Do you realise you're saying Imperial Fists and their successors will turn on their Battle-Brothers?!

...maybe... like Jello, there's always room for civil wars.

(Hypothetically, Black Templars all join as one group, Inquisition gets paranoid.... maybe calls for something severe. Chapters side with BT, others side with the Inquisition You can see how it can spiral out of control.)

I think Ultramarines are kind of like the super popular athlete in school that wins the games and gets the girls. All the attention and adulation at the expense of everyone else. In the case of many gamers, they feel excluded from certain social circles and so develop aversions and make phrases like mary-sue to denegrate anything too popular or perfect.

ie

Superman vs Batman (batman has flaws, he's more human and relatable, he's more complicated)
Ultramarines vs anything else (too mary sue too perfect etc)

People don't like to see an ideal in their fantasy because it brings their own insecurities and failings into relief. We look for things we can relate too because we want our heroes to be like us, not like something we can look up to.

While I don't have a lot against the space marines codex:Tyranids 4th ed. was the first fluff I ever read. So when I got to the maccrage battle I knew from what I had seen ans heard about Ultramarines that they were going to win by some stupidly small epic last stand.

mattyrm wrote:I really dont see the issue, Im 4 books into the HH and it makes sense to have a Gulliman doesn't it?!

There are 20 primarchs, we have the big strong combat brute (Angron) The fast agile Corax, the emo black metal goth (Nighthaunter) steadfast loyal Dorn, Rebellious Horus etc etc etc etc etc

What is wrong with one of the twenty being a more book smart, ridiculously diciplined man of honour like Gulliman?

Being a military man, Robute appeals to me more than any of the others. He was a shining example to the rest, he was as loyal as Dorn, but didn't get his ass kicked as much, he was incredibly disciplined and tactically an absolute genius, what's to dislike?

Im not a kid, Im 31 and i went to Iraq twice, I just dont see the appeal in general to playing the "bad guys" because they suck more!

Think about it, Horus fell hook line and sinker for the Chaos Gods plans. What's good about getting played like a fiddle?

Nighthaunter is like a spoilt teenager, Angron is an idiot, Horus was a fool and played into the hands of the dark Gods.

But Gulliman, was all kinds of awesome, smart, hard as nails, loyal, noble..

And lets be honest, If this was all real, were would you rather live? Ordered wealthy healthy Ultramar, or some gak pit like Fenris?

How about Sanguinius? He was considered to be Warmaster after Horus (even by Horus himself, prior to his chnage to Chaos) and


He was strong, fought in the middle of it all, was tempted by Horus (who was like a brother) and declined, he was respected by all legions and the other primarchs, and he was a strong leader and combatant, holding the Eternity Gate against Chaos.

And regarding other people's questions abut Dorn and the codex Astartes, and possible civil war, I point you to this:

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes, calling Guilliman a coward due to lack of participation in the defence of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis. However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part.

Shigematsu wrote:

purplefood wrote:According to the codex the Imperial Fists are the second most devout supporters of the codex second only to the Space Wolves... just kidding it's the Ultramarines of course.

Seems kinda odd to be honest. Though I suppose I was confusing the Black Templars strong defiance to the codex with the Imperial Fists.

I suppose Dorn's lot had a change of heart after the second foundings. The Crimson Fists most certainly are staunch Imperium supporters, being called on more than many other chapters to support the Ordo Xenos (according to DeathWatch fluff I've read).

The Templars. Well, they have their own code. While they don't follow the Codex very well, they're certainly loyal. There's been no Black Templar renegades/heretics in their 10k year history following their founding after the Horus Heresy.

Edit: thanks for that quote, Elector.

Elector wrote:

How about Sanguinius? He was considered to be Warmaster after Horus (even by Horus himself, prior to his chnage to Chaos) and

Spoiler:

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...” -- The Warmaster Horus

He was strong, fought in the middle of it all, was tempted by Horus (who was like a brother) and declined, he was respected by all legions and the other primarchs, and he was a strong leader and combatant, holding the Eternity Gate against Chaos.

And regarding other people's questions abut Dorn and the codex Astartes, and possible civil war, I point you to this:

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes, calling Guilliman a coward due to lack of participation in the defence of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser Terrible Angel was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis. However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part.

Sure, Sanguinus was awesome too!

I like almost all of the loyalist primarchs, what im saying is, Gulliman was awesome in his own way. Bear in mind he managed to take the whole horus heresy on the chin, soak up the word bearers surprise attack, (they had the element of surpise, so surely should have won, but he sucked it up, reorganised his remaining forces, and then routed them from the system.

AND, he personally kicked another primarch's ass in single combat. I might be wrong, but no other loyalist Primarch personally killed another that had turned to chaos right?

Master of combat tactics, logistics, and actually nails in a fight. Whats up with that?

The_Stormrider wrote: I think Ultramarines are kind of like the super popular athlete in school that wins the games and gets the girls. All the attention and adulation at the expense of everyone else. In the case of many gamers, they feel excluded from certain social circles and so develop aversions and make phrases like mary-sue to denegrate anything too popular or perfect.

ie

Superman vs Batman (batman has flaws, he's more human and relatable, he's more complicated)
Ultramarines vs anything else (too mary sue too perfect etc)

People don't like to see an ideal in their fantasy because it brings their own insecurities and failings into relief. We look for things we can relate too because we want our heroes to be like us, not like something we can look up to.

It's more like there being a person at school who is good at some things and likes to think he is good at everything and hates anyone who says otherwise. Then imagine being forced to do everything you do but the way he says to even though you might be better at doing it than he is.
Mary Sue is a term used (legitimately IMO) because nothing is perfect and fi you want to write any kind of fiction the writer needs to know this... Matt Ward doesn't seem to know this.

The fists are staunch loyalists,
The Black templars was just Dorn's last finger to Gulliman.

Like Kronk my main gripe with the ultraboys was Gullimans demenour and he who shall not be named's obbession with the statsis boy.


and just a word of warning to all who strive to make themselves perfect
"Pride cometh before a fall."
"The bigger you are the harder you fall"