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4M2A wrote:
When you read a book you want the character to struggle. Whatever happens to ultramarines they are going to be ok because they are ultramarines. They have to much plot armour for the story to work. Whenever fluff about the UM is release you know they will win. They may loose a few marines but they will be back to full strength just in time for the next crusade.

Don't all major chapters, such as BA, SW, BT and DA, get back to full strength?


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Less tainted geneseed, I think not

Only because there is alot of space marines with Ultramarine geneseed.


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thenoobbomb wrote:It could be my not-so-clear talk...
But the Ultramarines only guard the sector of the empire in wich they live.

Read warhammer 40k books before writing dumb and false things.


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Surtur wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:^^Really? You do understand why he made the Codex right? And what is the problem with them not having a lot of planets? The U.S. could have easily taken over some countries during WWII, but we did not. Are you going to say the same thing about that?

Okay, He did start writing the codex before heresy broke out
The codex is good but for such an important document you NEED colaberation between the remaining preimarchs but it his singular view, it also restricted the available amount of marines to the defence of the imperium, if he was to come out of statis and survive (0% chance), he would relise that part was a msitake.

Most primarchs simply conquered and subjugated. Guilliman helped rebuild planets he conquered. Read the Omnibus. 2nd story, the one against the nids. Uriel sees Guilliman's distinct touch with how the fortifications and city were laid out despite how sullied they had become. He saw the passion that his presence left in the mural.

Many of the community enjoy twisting certain aspects of fluff far out of proportion or making caricatures of armies and then forgetting that they're caricatures. Many of the community forget that people enjoy certain armies regardless of age or intelligence, that people have the right to enjoy their hobby how they chose, that people have the right to color their Space Marines what ever color they want and that behind an army is a person.

Since I know nobody will bother to read this post anyway: Haters gonna hate.

I read it and it is better throught out than some of the silly post on this thread.


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:^^Really? You do understand why he made the Codex right? And what is the problem with them not having a lot of planets? The U.S. could have easily taken over some countries during WWII, but we did not. Are you going to say the same thing about that?

Okay, He did start writing the codex before heresy broke out
The codex is good but for such an important document you NEED colaberation between the remaining preimarchs but it his singular view, it also restricted the available amount of marines to the defence of the imperium, if he was to come out of statis and survive (0% chance), he would relise that part was a msitake.

He wrote the codex after the heresy and it was needed a lot at the time and still is.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:I wonder (percentage wise) who has the most traitor successor chapters (excluding 21st)
Lets see
BA- Lamentors, but they changed back
DA- None
SW- None
RG, IF, Salamanders, IH, and WS - None jump to mind
Ultramarines- Quite a few

Less tainted geneseed, I think not

For the BA, its the Knights of Blood that are renegade because of their lack of control of their bloodlust (as dangerous to friend as to foe), but they still fight against the enemies of the IoM. They didn't turn traitor to Chaos.

For the Ultramarines, I'm curious, which were traitors? I checked on Lexicanum and no info popped up. Sources? I'd say their gene-seed lacks the taint, but that's just another pip on the "I'm too perfect a Chapter"-o-meter.

EDIT: for spelling

I have no problem with the Ultra Marines. I rather like their "clean cut mary sue-ness". Then again, I love Flash Gordon and Captain America.

It's good to have some sterling dudly do-rights that basically never fail and have no dirty dark secrets. A universe of tragically flawed anti-heros is boring.

My only gripe is that the Space Marine codex should allow for more flexibility (removing the jump pack command squads or termi command squads was bad). They should be able to do 'deathwing', 'jump marine', 'bike marine', etc. Just not be as good as the dedicated codices at those specific areas.

I.e. no stubborn like DA, no counter attack like Space Wolves, no furious charge like BA, no mixing in the termi squads (i.e. no assault and normal in one squad), missing the jink rule for Ravenwing...

The upshot would then be none of their draw backs

After looking at this thread, it looks like people hate Ultrasmurfs not Ultramarines. These Ultrasmurfs are very different to Ultramarines.

Luna Dragon wrote:After looking at this thread, it looks like people hate Ultrasmurfs not Ultramarines. These Ultrasmurfs are very different to Ultramarines.

They are the same...
It s a reference to them being blue...

purplefood wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:After looking at this thread, it looks like people hate Ultrasmurfs not Ultramarines. These Ultrasmurfs are very different to Ultramarines.

They are the same...
It s a reference to them being blue...

Ultrasmurfs are flanderized Ultramarines.

There's not a single SM chapter that I dislike, though some I prefer over others for a number of reasons.

In my current Dark Heresy campaign, the Team Inquisition just got their assess handed to them by a xeno battleship while trying to defend a human colony world in the Koronus Expanse. They fought valiantly, and attempted to deny the prize to the enemy... but a frigate does not a threat to a battleship make.

So now they've suborned a battlegroup from Battlefleet Koronus that was otherwise tasked with ferrying a Deathwatch Kill-Team around. In that killteam is an Ultramarine (Squad Leader), two Space Wolves (Tactical) and a Blood Angel (Devastator). I've enjoyed introducing these Marines to the players, and letting them see, up close, the many traits that set the SM apart from the bulk of humanity. The fangs and silver-grey hair of the Wolves, the creepiness of the Blood Angel, the oh-so-proper manner and nature of the poster-boy Ultramarine. The players have been having fun with it, too, because now they have the firepower to deal with the xeno threat... or, at least, think they do, but that's a chapter yet to come in this story.

In the novels most of the Ultramarines are actually really nice, unless they are purposely written to be
It's the codex that makes them all sound like though...

crocodoom wrote:People are tired of seeing the letter U

You do understand that it is actually an upside down Omega symbol right? It is not a "U".

Omega symbol=Ω

Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

I will have to take your word for it. I have never read the Codex, so I wouldn't know.
Personally, my favorite (based on the looks) would have to be the Legion of the Damned.

forruner_mercy wrote:

crocodoom wrote:People are tired of seeing the letter U

You do understand that it is actually an upside down Omega symbol right? It is not a "U".

Omega symbol=Ω

It's called sarcasm...

purplefood wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:

crocodoom wrote:People are tired of seeing the letter U

You do understand that it is actually an upside down Omega symbol right? It is not a "U".

Omega symbol=Ω

It's called sarcasm...

Sorry then. Hope you understand that it is frequently hard to tell sarcasm on things like this. Usually there is a certain tone of voice.

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

thats becasue 70+% of the fluff in the codex was entitled
'History of the Ultramarines' or
'Famous battles of the Ultramrines'
The only other stuff is 1-2 pages on the heresey 9The CSM codex has 4-5 in comparison)
The battle for Rynn's World and another incident after (LotD)
The raven guard and WS working together
Sacrifice of the Astral Knights
Armageddon
the purging conquatal

The Iron hands get 2 paragraphs in the whole codex and they were a fething legion!!
The astral knights get more (Fair nough) but still they were a legion

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

Where does it say that every chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Pure geneseed yes, but to be Ultramarine? How are they better than the Emperor? Just because they don't let losses get the better of them and stop them doing their duty, something is wrong with them, something is wrong with the chapters who don't.

Oh, and harken linen mark 2 is just a hater who only reads what he wants to and not the whole thing.

They don't specialise in anything and they exile their own people for making the smallest deviation from the codex, even if that saves an entire planet.(see Uriel Ventris and Tarris Ultra)

Thamor wrote:

bigmek35 wrote:what happend? Ward happend.

THough not all smurfs are bad theres one good one, Uriel Ventris he is the only good smurf.

I have to agree, Uriel and Pasanius are the only UM I like thanks to Graham Mcneill

Ultramarines are the chapter I hate because of Graham Mcneill. I couldn't stand those books. There were a few cool bits, but I couldn't stand those characters. Nylund? having written the "Fall of Damnos", did not do much better, some of the characters had more depth, but it was still pretty flat

Luna Dragon wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

Where does it say that every chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Pure geneseed yes, but to be Ultramarine? How are they better than the Emperor and the Chaos Gods? Just because they don't let losses get the better of them and stop them doing their duty, something is wrong with them, something is wrong with the chapters who don't.

Oh, and harken linen mark 2 is just a hater who only reads what he wants to and not the whole thing.

As in?

Luna Dragon wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

Where does it say that every chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Pure geneseed yes, but to be Ultramarine? How are they better than the Emperor and the Chaos Gods? Just because they don't let losses get the better of them and stop them doing their duty, something is wrong with them, something is wrong with the chapters who don't.

Oh, and harken linen mark 2 is just a hater who only reads what he wants to and not the whole thing.

I'm paraphrasing, but; "All codex chapters consider Marneus Calgar their spiritual liege" and "these abarations (who reject the codex) are slowly dieing out."
So every Space Marine is an Ultramarine, and those that aren't are dead. Better tell the BT that they're dieing out. They'll be shocked, outnumbering the smurfs 6:1 like they do.

I'll find a page reference when I can. Might be while.

I think the 'aberations' were literally just SW and BT...

alexwars1 wrote:So every Space Marine is an Ultramarine, and those that aren't are dead. Better tell the BT that they're dieing out. They'll be shocked, outnumbering the smurfs 6:1 like they do.

Speaking of outnumbering: Space Marines are each the equal of 12 Guardsmen in capability, so the entirety of Space Marine military capacity is about equal to 12 million Guardsmen, and an individual chapter is equal to around 12 thousand. So not only are the Space Marines as a whole worth less than one millionth the Guard is, but an individual chapter is worth significantly less than a regiment is if one goes off the numbers for regiments in the codex (and only equal to two or three regiments if one goes off the more common numbers from Black Library books), and regiments are regularly raised by the hundreds during the tithing of a single hive world.

Space Marines already have a pretty damning case against them: they're much too small to matter in the grand scheme of things, and they insist on using the most inefficient equipment available, when the facilities producing it could instead produce far greater numbers of equivalent or only slightly worse gear like lasguns and russes, instead of bolters and land raiders or suits of terminator armor. Smurfs are all that, of course, but they're also a particularly annoying shade of blue and quite dear to the walking crime-against-fluff that is Matt Ward, who makes them all the more insufferable every time he opens his mouth.

So yeah, Smurfs have nothing going for them, and everything going against them. A better question would be "What isn't wrong with Smurfs?"

^They're the ones who make the impossible possible, sometimes having enough Guardsmen to make the difference is too bulky a force, or they aren't even capable of making a decent stand at a point. The Space Marines are the strike force, the ones who are able to take out the most vital targets on missions where small numbers work best, the missions that seem impossible, yet they succeed, where sometimes you need a couple dozen soldiers holding their ground against hordes of unfathomable horror, giving their all without needing the motivation of a commissar hanging over their heads. The IG and the SM both have their purpose, a purpose that makes sense in the setting given. Th issue is that the Ultramarines are seen as "the best of the best" when they have no qualities that make them the best beyond the "because we said so" argument.

Their Tactical Marines only get one attack.

Pitiful.

They seem no worse than any other Space Marine chapter to me, I don't know why they get the hate. I am partial to Space Wolves or Blood Angels but I certainly don't hold an active dislike for Ultramarines (although I like to think I don't actively dislike many things )

forruner_mercy wrote:

purplefood wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:

crocodoom wrote:People are tired of seeing the letter U

You do understand that it is actually an upside down Omega symbol right? It is not a "U".

Omega symbol=Ω

It's called sarcasm...

Sorry then. Hope you understand that it is frequently hard to tell sarcasm on things like this. Usually there is a certain tone of voice.

Just food for thought when considering the symbology of the Ultramarines.

The Omega might actually be only a 'U', I mean, they are the Ultramarines. While their color is indeed 'Ultramarine' (not just blue) they are named after Ultramar which I believe was in existence before the Legion.

But, just for kicks, here are some alternate explanations...

In ancient Greek, Omega meant 'great' or 'big' which might be in reference to them being the largest legion during the crusade.

Omega is often used to denote the last, the end, or the ultimate limit of a set, in contrast to Alpha. Take that to mean what you will considering the relationship between the two legions.

To the Judeo-Christians God is said to be "full of Goodness and Truth." The Hebrew spelling of the word "Truth" consists of the 3 letters "Aleph," "Mem," and "Thaw" -- and because "Aleph" and "Thaw" are the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, the ancients saw mystical relevance in God's being referred to as "Truth." The whole Alpha-Omega thing.

Omega is considered to mean the end of something, an inverted Omega can be seen as the beginning, or rebirth of something.

The Omega symbol was a seen a 'Womb' of the gods of the ancient near east.

A bit of a stretch, the number 13 (Ultramarines being the 13th chapter) is seen as unlucky in some cultures, however, an inverted horseshoe (represented as an inverted Omega symbol) is a symbol of 'good luck'. Inverted so the luck doesn't 'run out'.

The 'Omega male' is the highest possible status a man can achieve, higher than the 'Alpha male'. Now that's just funny...

In the movie 'Omega man', he was the last man left standing.

Ultramrines though are the leaset relatable chapter because they portray themselves as son darn perfect, there is nothing to relate to apart from the fact at birth they were human. evry other legion had thier flaws which is why they are likable and relatable.
And I don't don't hate the Ultramarines, just have a severe dilike of Calgar, and Sicarius. (How the hell these two made it as far is beyond me)
As well as the primarch, not just for Codex Astartes.
It was what was needed at the time and in a way still is but he did it without consultation. He took his anger at not even being there when Horus was named Warmaster (And we all know Gulliamn wanted it) and after 7 years of Heresy he takes out that anger on his loyalist brothers. he nearly caused a second civil war by the way he swept in and started giving orders without consultation. He was arrogant and self-centered. Despite being bred for war he was a massive pen-pusher/bean counter. Had he let Dorn, Khan nad Corax sort out the immediate after math of the Horuses actions it would of been alot smoother.

At the risk of being beaten up....

I like The Ultra Marines, because somewhere in that very heavy vibed galaxy there is Ultramar an empire of strength and organisation.
The Ultra Marines are plenty cool and have nice shiny blue armour.
Sicarius is great.
So is Agemman.

I like to think there might be a plenty cool civil war between Sicarius and Agemman.

Apart from them not having infy lives, The Ultra Marines are nearly the best space marine chapter out there and to me the hope of Mankind.

Gobba wrote:At the risk of being beaten up....

I like The Ultra Marines, because somewhere in that very heavy vibed galaxy there is Ultramar an empire of strength and organisation.
The Ultra Marines are plenty cool and have nice shiny blue armour.
Sicarius is great.
So is Agemman.

I like to think there might be a plenty cool civil war between Sicarius and Agemman.

Apart from them not having infy lives, The Ultra Marines are nearly the best space marine chapter out there and to me the hope of Mankind.

Hmmm, I can see your point, if I see them from a IRL wargamer's POV, I dislike for several reasons I've already pointed out, but from an Imperial citizen's POV, they are the best hope for man, as the least corrupted and most stable Chapter.

alexwars1 wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Ultramarines used to be good. They were the everyman Space Marines, the most human and relatable. Sur they had great victories, but they suffered great losses as well. The losses of the first company actualy meant gak. Then, Matt Ward wrote the codex. Suddenly, every chapter wants to be Ultramarines, they're all smarmy gits, and better than everyone. Goddam Matt Ward.

Where does it say that every chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Pure geneseed yes, but to be Ultramarine? How are they better than the Emperor and the Chaos Gods? Just because they don't let losses get the better of them and stop them doing their duty, something is wrong with them, something is wrong with the chapters who don't.

Oh, and harken linen mark 2 is just a hater who only reads what he wants to and not the whole thing.

I'm paraphrasing, but; "All codex chapters consider Marneus Calgar their spiritual liege" and "these abarations (who reject the codex) are slowly dieing out."
So every Space Marine is an Ultramarine, and those that aren't are dead. Better tell the BT that they're dieing out. They'll be shocked, outnumbering the smurfs 6:1 like they do.

I'll find a page reference when I can. Might be while.

We're talking about Ultramarines, not the aliens Smurfs

Go and tell Kharn that he is a Ultramarine.

And don't make up quotes!


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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

alexwars1/ wrote:

So yeah, Smurfs have nothing going for them, and everything going against them. A better question would be "What isn't wrong with Smurfs?"

We're talking about Ultramarines not Smurfs and we all not, Pseudonymous, that you are a hater of all Space Marines.


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Ultramrines though are the leaset relatable chapter because they portray themselves as son darn perfect, there is nothing to relate to apart from the fact at birth they were human. evry other legion had thier flaws which is why they are likable and relatable.
And I don't don't hate the Ultramarines, just have a severe dilike of Calgar, and Sicarius. (How the hell these two made it as far is beyond me)
As well as the primarch, not just for Codex Astartes.
It was what was needed at the time and in a way still is but he did it without consultation. He took his anger at not even being there when Horus was named Warmaster (And we all know Gulliamn wanted it) and after 7 years of Heresy he takes out that anger on his loyalist brothers. he nearly caused a second civil war by the way he swept in and started giving orders without consultation. He was arrogant and self-centered. Despite being bred for war he was a massive pen-pusher/bean counter. Had he let Dorn, Khan nad Corax sort out the immediate after math of the Horuses actions it would of been alot smoother.

When he take it out one the other loyalist, never says that in any books. How was he arrogant and self-centred? And let a let a single person control a legion just after the heresy which was only possible because Horus was in sole control of a legion! And when did also start a second civil war? When?! And which Primarch didn't want the greatest honour of his life?

forruner_mercy wrote:I just want to know. It seems that people are always giving the Ultramarines crap.

Nothing is wrong with Ultramarines.

You have to rememebr a couple of things:

1. Nerds should never be allowed to use the internet unsupervised

2. Gamers as a group love to further subdivide themseleves along lines that are laregly superficial and fight to see who the coolest geek(s) shall be