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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The fists are staunch loyalists,
The Black templars was just Dorn's last finger to Gulliman.

Like Kronk my main gripe with the ultraboys was Gullimans demenour and he who shall not be named's obbession with the statsis boy.


and just a word of warning to all who strive to make themselves perfect
"Pride cometh before a fall."
"The bigger you are the harder you fall"

Perhaps I should reword myself.

My question is this, considering that all are loyal to the Emperor. Hypothetically, if the Inquisition called for the extermination of the Black Templars (despite the loyalty of the Templars), would the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists willingly allow it? Would they side with the Templars? Abstain? Join in the extermination? What of the Ultramarines, where would they stand in such a conflict? Or would the Astartes together stand against the Inquisition, "protesting" against such an act? (That's an awful lot of questions, I know.)

Shigematsu wrote:Hypothetically, if the Inquisition called for the extermination of the Black Templars (despite the loyalty of the Templars), would the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists willingly allow it? Would they side with the Templars? Abstain? Join in the extermination? What of the Ultramarines, where would they stand in such a conflict? Or would the Astartes together stand against the Inquisition, "protesting" against such an act? (That's an awful lot of questions, I know.)

Wow. I have no idea what the Crimson Fists would do. Granted, they're still recovering from Rynn's World. I'd think that the Imperial Fists would go along with the Inquisition IF proof of Black Templar heresy were provided. There would have to be a lot of proof, though.

Especially given their "no alien, mutant or heretic" rule that goes so far as to not even allow psykers to be part of the Chapter (other than Astropaths, Navigators, and a few other vital, non-fighting psykers), so unless the Inquisition essentially got a video, dozens of photos, and signed testimony of blood rituals to Khorne, the summoning of daemons, and the inclusion of a Daemon Prince, I'd think most Chapters would go against the accusation.

Because Guilliman wasn't with Sanguinius and Dorn fighting off the Hordes of Chaos at the Golden Throne, but he and his chapter are still considered the best.

Metalskunk wrote:Because Guilliman wasn't with Sanguinius and Dorn fighting off the Hordes of Chaos at the Golden Throne, but he and his chapter are still considered the best.

The Swift Boat captains have lead a smear campaign against Gulliman that has lasted 10,000 years...

purplefood wrote:

Luna Dragon wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Mainly because Mr. Ward decided to make it seem like every other SM chapter wants to be Ultramarines. Otherwise I really have no problem with them.

Why do people come up with this made up stupid reasons!? Why do people like to be idiots?! Why!?!

You want the actual quote?
Fine here it is

Chapters in the second catagory are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another primarch, but follow the Codex Asartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows...These chapter can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great primarch.

There is more:

Some such as the Blood ANgels strive to be worthy of Guiliman's legacy, but thier recaltricint gene-seed crives them away...for this is the tale of the Ultramarines and all who follow in their example.

Page 24 SM codex.
THAT, is why people dislike/hate them.
Now, stop calling people stupid, keep calm and make the tea.

Thank you, I was about to dig that quote out myself.

Honestly, Guilliman is the source of their problems. Nearly very other primarch is more interesting, has done something better, and/or is more relatable. And as for people talking about how Guilliman and Dorn were the most loyal? I'm gonna take a more radical stance and argue that Alpharius (or Omegon) and Magnus were actually the two primarchs most dedicated to the good of humanity. Just to stir things up in this thread a little.

Wouldn't Sanguinius be the most loyal? I know I mention him a lot, but it makes sense, he fought and died so Horus would fall, he never thought of betrayal, he joined the Emperor on sight...what else is there?

For a time, Lorgar would be the most loyal...he worshiped the Emperor (literally).

The reason I'd say Alpharius is

Magnus, on the other hand,

What does everyone think?

ULTRAmarines.

'Nuff said.

MandalorynOranj wrote:The reason I'd say Alpharius is

Spoiler:

the reason he joined Chaos was to try to eliminate it. If Chaos won the Heresy, it eventually would have collapsed on itself and been gone from the galaxy for good. Since the Imperium held, humanity is doomed to a slow death and Chaos will eventually win the Long War.

Magnus, on the other hand,

Spoiler:

was essentially forced into going traitor. He was only trying to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal, but the Imperium's closed-mindedness couldn't differentiate between disobeying the Emperor for the good of humanity and outright heresy.

What does everyone think?

This isn't the place for that debate.
Start a new topic in 40k Discussions for that.

To be truthful, I had no idea that all....stuff would happen. Love all of this discussion though. There are good reasons for not liking the Ultramarines, but on the flip-side, there are also some not so good reasons.

forruner_mercy wrote:To be truthful, I had no idea that all....stuff would happen. Love all of this discussion though. There are good reasons for not liking the Ultramarines, but on the flip-side, there are also some not so good reasons.

The not so good reasons are clearly b*****ks the good reasons are fairly good.
However i can see how people like them
Though i can't see how anyone likes Sicarius...

Me? I don't hate the boys in blue. Do they bore me? Yes. Does the fact that they're rigidly following a book of tactics to the letter written 10k years ago, that the enemy can get ahold of with ease, making it easy to counter said tactics annoy me? Indeed. But all in all, they're a benchmark. Neccisary, but bland. All marines are compared to them most definitly. some are better, some worse, but they're the zero point.
So I don't know why the hate, I can understand why some people can like them. Much like I can understand any other army in the game. But I'm not a fan.

Shigematsu wrote:Couldn't it be argued that the Ultramarines flaw is their hubris?

That's actually a very good take on it. The others have their well known (or less well known) problems, be it gene-seed related, organisation or both. The Ultramarines are perfect and they know it. Where the Blood Angels or Dark Angels have no reservations about calling on their successors if the situation warrants it the Ultramarines try defending their homeworld alone against a freaking Tyranid fleet. Hubris probably doesn't cover the kind of overconfident insanity the Lord of Macragge engages in.

It's likely linked to their recruitment practices. Noble families of Ultramar see it as a great honor to have a son accepted in the chapter and the UM try to keep their realm stable. I guess they've accepted a few too many people challenged in the great-grandparent department.

Spetulhu wrote:

Shigematsu wrote:Couldn't it be argued that the Ultramarines flaw is their hubris?

That's actually a very good take on it. The others have their well known (or less well known) problems, be it gene-seed related, organisation or both. The Ultramarines are perfect and they know it. Where the Blood Angels or Dark Angels have no reservations about calling on their successors if the situation warrants it the Ultramarines try defending their homeworld alone against a freaking Tyranid fleet. Hubris probably doesn't cover the kind of overconfident insanity the Lord of Macragge engages in.

It's likely linked to their recruitment practices. Noble families of Ultramar see it as a great honor to have a son accepted in the chapter and the UM try to keep their realm stable. I guess they've accepted a few too many people challenged in the great-grandparent department.

That close relation is because there are less successor chapters from both angel legions and maintain a much closer inter-dependent system whereas the ultraboys have too many and some of them want to do their own thing if it wasn't for Matt Ward.

I think the codex was needed for the reasons given...(in a terran offiicial mentality) we cannot have a super weapon with its own mind in control of over large forces who themselves are weapons with minds.

If a being that powerful were to choose to step back from difficult conflicts, recruit not only from its gene stock (space marines) but also managed to field regiment upon regiment of Imperial citizens all under the control of the Space Marines along with all the artillery and support vehicles. Continue to build and only use easy conflicts to train there own Legion....while other Legions did the real hard work of stopping the galaxy from wiping mankind out....

Who would be left to stand up to the crafty Legion Master with huge amounts of manpower?

We would hope the other legions would stand up to them.....but then that's what happened at the Horus Heresy. Could the Imperium be able to withstand another war of that scale?

Or should we allow it to happen and try to make all others follow the orders of that one LEgion MAster and in turn we ourselves become servants not to The Emperor but slaves to a Legion Master, simply to prevent another civil war. I say we should follow The UltraMarines example. And not ever become distanced from The Emperor.

Besides if it wasn't for the UltraMarines the aftermath of the HH would have been much worse.

we're not saying that, it was needed it just he rammed it down everyone's throats with even talking to them

well in His defence would you really want to try and debate with angry testosterone teenagers with big guns who have been around long enough to be very and nearly overly confident in there battle abilities.

Personally he did a leadership thing and took charge avoiding a direct confrontation (as many good leaders and generals even supervisors, they pick there fight and fight it there way and sometimes using 'The Art Of Fighting Without Fighting').
Yes he ruffled some feathers and bruised a few egos. He knew the others would not risk another war so after all the beefing up and banging chests were done with he was able to get on with the grand plan. ie the codex.

It's not like he was Caligula and quite barmy with power. Nor a Nero who would dance about. This was Roboute Guilliman this was a guy who would have outsmarted Sun Tzu slapped Alexander tweaked the nose of Bonaparte and probably would have laughed at The Iron Duke.

They are the Dallas Cowboys of 40k. A lot of hype about being "Americas Team" a lot of self-inflated image of themselves that they are going to be the next superbowl champion but the reality is they tend to be crap when it comes time to put up or shut up. Then we go into hyper-propaganda mode and when someone else does something somehow you try to paint it as some ultra-smurf grand design.

I would posit that it is the overbearing, self-inflated attitude of the Ultramarines that probably caused the rise of chaos legions. After awhile getting the "true-blue" version of the imperium stuffed down your throats is going to cause irritation and resentment.

Down blue. Down smurf. Down ultramarines!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Honestly, Guilliman is the source of their problems. Nearly very other primarch is more interesting, has done something better, and/or is more relatable. And as for people talking about how Guilliman and Dorn were the most loyal? I'm gonna take a more radical stance and argue that Alpharius (or Omegon) and Magnus were actually the two primarchs most dedicated to the good of humanity. Just to stir things up in this thread a little.

As in while the IoM was burning and other chapter masters were dying actually defending the emporer and the imperium ... The ultrasmurfs greatest accomplishment was writing a book and when all the other chapters were licking their wounds from actually fighting, the ultrasmurfs - with 1/4 of the galaxy under their sway and conviently not heavily engaged, now shoved said book down the throats of every other legion.

I really, just don't understand why so much hate against the Ultramarines. <eye roll>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shigematsu wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The fists are staunch loyalists,
The Black templars was just Dorn's last finger to Gulliman.

Like Kronk my main gripe with the ultraboys was Gullimans demenour and he who shall not be named's obbession with the statsis boy.


and just a word of warning to all who strive to make themselves perfect
"Pride cometh before a fall."
"The bigger you are the harder you fall"

Perhaps I should reword myself.

My question is this, considering that all are loyal to the Emperor. Hypothetically, if the Inquisition called for the extermination of the Black Templars (despite the loyalty of the Templars), would the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists willingly allow it? Would they side with the Templars? Abstain? Join in the extermination? What of the Ultramarines, where would they stand in such a conflict? Or would the Astartes together stand against the Inquisition, "protesting" against such an act? (That's an awful lot of questions, I know.)

1. The other chapters would execute their duties - perhaps the other fists with less than enthusiastic abandon.
2. The ultrasmurf propaganda writers would claim that not only did they uncover the traitors but that they in fact were solely responsible for removing the taint.
3. The other chapters would go back to recruiting to replace their losses from the bloody affair.
4. Marneus would pin a medal on his chest for his outstanding duty to the IoM with all the ultramarines cheering him on and of course everyone else present would be cheering him on. (or else..)

DAaddict wrote:They are the Dallas Cowboys of 40k. A lot of hype about being "Americas Team" a lot of self-inflated image of themselves that they are going to be the next superbowl champion but the reality is they tend to be crap when it comes time to put up or shut up. Then we go into hyper-propaganda mode and when someone else does something somehow you try to paint it as some ultra-smurf grand design.

I would posit that it is the overbearing, self-inflated attitude of the Ultramarines that probably caused the rise of chaos legions. After awhile getting the "true-blue" version of the imperium stuffed down your throats is going to cause irritation and resentment.

Down blue. Down smurf. Down ultramarines!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MandalorynOranj wrote:Honestly, Guilliman is the source of their problems. Nearly very other primarch is more interesting, has done something better, and/or is more relatable. And as for people talking about how Guilliman and Dorn were the most loyal? I'm gonna take a more radical stance and argue that Alpharius (or Omegon) and Magnus were actually the two primarchs most dedicated to the good of humanity. Just to stir things up in this thread a little.

As in while the IoM was burning and other chapter masters were dying actually defending the emporer and the imperium ... The ultrasmurfs greatest accomplishment was writing a book and when all the other chapters were licking their wounds from actually fighting, the ultrasmurfs - with 1/4 of the galaxy under their sway and conviently not heavily engaged, now shoved said book down the throats of every other legion.

I really, just don't understand why so much hate against the Ultramarines. <eye roll>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shigematsu wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The fists are staunch loyalists,
The Black templars was just Dorn's last finger to Gulliman.

Like Kronk my main gripe with the ultraboys was Gullimans demenour and he who shall not be named's obbession with the statsis boy.


and just a word of warning to all who strive to make themselves perfect
"Pride cometh before a fall."
"The bigger you are the harder you fall"

Perhaps I should reword myself.

My question is this, considering that all are loyal to the Emperor. Hypothetically, if the Inquisition called for the extermination of the Black Templars (despite the loyalty of the Templars), would the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists willingly allow it? Would they side with the Templars? Abstain? Join in the extermination? What of the Ultramarines, where would they stand in such a conflict? Or would the Astartes together stand against the Inquisition, "protesting" against such an act? (That's an awful lot of questions, I know.)

1. The other chapters would execute their duties - perhaps the other fists with less than enthusiastic abandon.
2. The ultrasmurf propaganda writers would claim that not only did they uncover the traitors but that they in fact were solely responsible for removing the taint.
3. The other chapters would go back to recruiting to replace their losses from the bloody affair.
4. Marneus would pin a medal on his chest for his outstanding duty to the IoM with all the ultramarines cheering him on and of course everyone else present would be cheering him on. (or else..)

Touche good sir

Somehow it fits that the chapter trait of ultramarines is being able to run away when desired. Truly fitting.

Other chapters are stubborn or fearless, or fleet or outflank. The outstanding trait of an ultramarine is his penchant to run away whenever it is convenient.

Congrast you have struck the nail perfectly on the head

DAaddict wrote:Somehow it fits that the chapter trait of ultramarines is being able to run away when desired. Truly fitting.

Other chapters are stubborn or fearless, or fleet or outflank. The outstanding trait of an ultramarine is his penchant to run away whenever it is convenient.

That doesn't seem like a good trait.

forruner_mercy wrote:

DAaddict wrote:Somehow it fits that the chapter trait of ultramarines is being able to run away when desired. Truly fitting.

Other chapters are stubborn or fearless, or fleet or outflank. The outstanding trait of an ultramarine is his penchant to run away whenever it is convenient.

That doesn't seem like a good trait.

Game wise it is awesome. If someone trips a fire phase morale test, you can chose to fail it thus preserving your squad and also stranding a charger far away. Given a CC where you appear to be doomed to lose, again if you qualify for a morale test you can chose to fail it and run with the pay off that then you can shoot the charger to death. Of course in this scenario the risk is you lose an initiative test and get caught so you will have to take your armor test. Of course what really makes this awesome is the general freebie to all marines of ATSKNF.

Scenario: Enemy turn he charges up 20 ork shoota boyz to your squad of 10 marines. He shoots and kills 3 marines. Normally a marine would have to fail a roll of 9+ at least to no run away. But it is smurfs and they chose to automatically fail. They run 2d6 inches back - say 7" and then autorally due to ATSKNF. So now your 20 orks are stranded a convienient say 13" away from the 7 marines. They move forward 7 inches along with another squad of 10 and blow you away with say 27 shots followed up by a charge of the self-same 7 survivors who pummel you with 14 S4 attacks. You are going to lose on average 14 orks. So the smurfs win 3 marines dead to 14 orks dead.

I just think that if GW stopped putting there blue faces on every starter box the appeal would rise dramatically.

I just might agree with that.

An army that would rather stand and die rather than tactically withdraw in the face of a hopeless battle is a foolish army, indeed. Why other Chapters, who invest as much (or more) time and resources in recruiting, training, developing and equipping their Marines would prefer them to die on the battlefield to a man, rather than withdraw, regroup and try again with a better understanding of the enemy's tactics and resources... I will never know.

Sometimes, the "direct approach" is not the best approach.

But some people like the straight forward approaches. I am one of them. I understand the value of what you are saying, and I also understand the value of flanking around. Luckily what you said and what I like can be joined together.

DAaddict wrote:Somehow it fits that the chapter trait of ultramarines is being able to run away when desired. Truly fitting.

It shows their ablilty to do a tactical retreat against overwhelming odds, it saves lives in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:An army that would rather stand and die rather than tactically withdraw in the face of a hopeless battle is a foolish army, indeed. Why other Chapters, who invest as much (or more) time and resources in recruiting, training, developing and equipping their Marines would prefer them to die on the battlefield to a man, rather than withdraw, regroup and try again with a better understanding of the enemy's tactics and resources... I will never know.

Sometimes, the "direct approach" is not the best approach.

True.