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Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

motorhead1945 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

Hmm, I'll take your word for it, but they're listing IA2 as their source.

Well, in my chaos army I used to used predators but found them underwhelming.

I think the way to fix them is to let you take them in squadrons.

You see, especially for CSM but also for SM, the heavy support slots contain some of the most powerful units in the codex, and you can't really justify giving up the slots. For example, obliterators are more versatile and potentially more mobile (whilst firing), plus they're harder to kill and stop firing. Preds are easy to stun, and although they're cheap in points, they take up a valuable slot that you could spend on oblits or defilers or land raiders or vindicators, all of which are better heavy support than the pred.

210 for a squadron that is immune to shake and stun (that's right, squadrons are immune to shake and stun aren't they?) that could put out 6 str 7 ap 4 shots every turn would be much harder to stop. And more comparable to 3 obliterators, who are 225.

lunarman wrote:
210 for a squadron that is immune to shake and stun (that's right, squadrons are immune to shake and stun aren't they?) that could put out 6 str 7 ap 4 shots every turn would be much harder to stop. And more comparable to 3 obliterators, who are 225.

Stun is downgraded to Shaken. Not immune.

Really we could just give every tank in the iom every gun in the iom and we could all be happy that we all now play guard.

Preds dont need to be upgraded but i have wondered why we see so little of land radiers with mounted weapons.

pred = rino with big guns
??? = land radier with big guns?

they do exist but only here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Tanks/LAND-RAIDER-ACHILLES-COMPLETE-KIT.html

and there serposed to be rare.

The only missing neache is that their is nothing to effectivly fill the gap of anti swarm. an auto cannon would be good agenst a unit the size of sm but if your getting swarmed, the only tanks you can use are the wirlwind and the vindi. you dont want to use a vindi on a swarm when you could pie plate a nice tank or a unit of termies and i dont know why anyone would use a wirlwind. (what are their stats again?) The best answer would be assaultcannons imo. why cant preds have these?

Ledabot wrote:
The only missing neache is that their is nothing to effectivly fill the gap of anti swarm. an auto cannon would be good agenst a unit the size of sm but if your getting swarmed, the only tanks you can use are the wirlwind and the vindi. you dont want to use a vindi on a swarm when you could pie plate a nice tank or a unit of termies and i dont know why anyone would use a wirlwind. (what are their stats again?) The best answer would be assaultcannons imo. why cant preds have these?

The Land Raider Redeemer would like a chat with you, as would the Land Speeder Typhoon. The Thunderfire Cannon also called and said he couldn't come, but he sounded pissed too.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

motorhead1945 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Considering that a Rhino without cargo weighs 30 tonnes while a Predator weighs 66 tonnes, I'd say there's quite a significant difference. The Predator could simply have two engines combined into one or something to cope with the weight, which also explains how the Blood Angels managed to boost it's effectiveness.

Lexicanum is wrong with 66 tonnes, IA volume 2 states 44 tonnes.. which is more realistic anyway, considering Leman Russ Tanks weigh in at ~ 60 Tonnes ( IA Volume 1) and Land Raiders aroung 72 Tonnes (IA Volume 2)

Hmm, I'll take your word for it, but they're listing IA2 as their source.

IA2 definitely states 44 tons, have it right here in front of me! (didn't buy it, came from a guy who quit playing years ago)

Actually, the Rhino chassis is powered by 4 engines, each of which is singly capably of keeping it going, or be it at a reduced speed. The extra weight on a Pred does have it moving slower than the Rhino, but not by much. As for the armor taking up more room, Preds armor is only 5mm thicker than a Rhino's, (not sure how that extends to two points in the rules, but whatever)

Imperial Armour is notoriously stupid in its comparison of armor platings. I tend to ignore it, unless you want to think that Land Raiders have less effective armor than an Abrams.

Melissia wrote:Imperial Armour is notoriously stupid in its comparison of armor platings. I tend to ignore it, unless you want to think that Land Raiders have less effective armor than an Abrams.

Considering that 'long rod penetrators' (the main anti tank weapon used in tank-to-tank warfare) seem to be rare in the 40K universe, it could probably get away with it. Also, against these type of weapons the steel equivalent in pretty much meaningless, hardness is more important. Although, yes, as you say, if going by this measurement a LR's armor is much worse than an Abrams, and even worse than a WWII Tiger.

Even hardness is less important. The HEAT and APFSDS rounds can easily penetrate any amount of armor you can reasonably put on a tank, meaning that most armor today is far, FAR more complicated than most people realize.

Actually the Leman Russ has better armor than either the Tiger or the King Tiger. Forge World isn't THAT incompetant. The problem is that Forge World is full of WW2 buffs, so when they wrote up the armor ratings, they just threw out big impressive numbers, that dwarfed anything things in WW2 had. The problem was that none of them thought to research what modern AT weapons could do...

Ah 40k weaponry, sometimes it is quite silly. After all bolter shells are tipped with hard water

Methinks this thread is slowly getting off topic though

kenshin620 wrote:Ah 40k weaponry, sometimes it is quite silly. After all bolter shells are tipped with hard water

Methinks this thread is slowly getting off topic though

Deuterium isn't water, just FYI.

Doesn't mean tipping bolters with 'depleted deuterium' makes any sense.

I mean hell, at least heavy water has SOME significant mass.

Actually deuterium could make sense as part of the bolter... if it was part of the explosive element instead of the tip.

Melissia wrote:Actually deuterium could make sense as part of the bolter... if it was part of the explosive element instead of the tip.

Thermo-nuclear rounds for bolters? Sign me up!

im having trouble figuring out whether you agree with me?

What I agree with is a TLAC turret, myself. Mostly for balance reasons rather than fluff ones. Bump the cost up five to fifteen points, compensate TLLC turret's cost down the same amount of points, and the predator is fine.

TLAC Upgrade for Dreadnought: 10 Points

Really, I think upping the Pred's base cost by 65 and giving it a TLAC would be fine.

In the strange and wonderful world of 40k, ap6 can blow up tanks. really it doent need to penertrate to blow up the tank. it just needs to hit hard. the autocannon is an example of this. its ap4 s6.

a sm living through an autocannon shot is like a space mariene getting hit by a train. he gets hit, bounces a few feet but makes his 3+ and gets up and starts shooting you again.

lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

but it would work. i edited cos backspace desided to pull me back a few pages instead of helping me fix tipos. lol

your quite right it would work

Tyranic Marta wrote:lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

Heavy stubber aimed at the side of an open topped, AV10 vehicle like a Basilisk's side. 6 to pen gets you a glance, 6 on the damage table, -2 for glancing, +1 for the target being opentopped, and you've got yourself a wrecked tank.

Ledabot wrote:the autocannon is an example of this. its ap4 s6.

It's S7 AP4, not S6.

Tyranic Marta wrote:lawls, thats assuming you can find an ap6 weapon

let alone an ap6 weapon with enough strength to pop a tank

Multilasers are S6 AP6.

They are often used with scout sentinels to go for rear armor hits.

*shrug* i dont play against alot of guard. The only time we ever see anything worse than AP 4 is on pulse rifles and bolter equivalents

Lysenis wrote:How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

true. and it would also tie in with epic 40000. i posses predators with plasmacannon sponsons in epic scale

A predator with TLPlasCan and PlasCan sponsons is fine to me . As long as you pay for it an appropriate price.

TLPlascan Turret: 45 Points

Plascan Sponsons: 80 Points

That sound good?

Suggestion: Autocannon 48" Heavy 2. S4 AP6 small blast.
If the pin hole is directly over a vehicle S7 AP4.

Other suggestion is that any blast or large blast weapon that actually penetrates a vehicle, gets the +1 modifier currently reserved for AP1. Rather than the destructive force of the power of the round, it is a rating of the destructive nature of a contained blast effect.