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heres my proposed statline...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSp7CipN1pw&feature=player_embedded

cgmckenzie wrote:Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

That is what Space Marines are supposed to do, remember...

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast

Ehh thats not an autocannon though, thats two missile launchers

Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

I think Preds would be better if they had autocannon sponsons as a an option. Keep the cost the same as for the lascannon sponsons you would get 6 S7 AP4 shots if you stayed still. I might also give them the option to have 11 rear armor for a points upgrade.

I think a twin-linked autocannon turret and autocannon sponsons would do the trick.

ChrisWWII wrote:Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

Stormcallers I find it heartening to find another fan of Dimitri's 'work'.

Miraclefish wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Which, as a tanks main gun, I think the Predator's autocannon should be closer to.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

And a very specialized role. The Predator loadout with autocannon isn't meant to take out tanks--it's an anti-infantry/light armor loadout. If they need something to engage tanks--they'll take HK missiles and lascannon sponsons.

The TL lascannon w/ lascannons is what's meant to take out tanks and other heavily armored vehicles.

Yeah, it's not really a tank, though. It's an up-gunned light armoured vehicle. Leman Russes, Hammerheads and Fire Prisms are tanks, the Predator is a support vehicle with very specialised weapons systems.

It's not a tank, originally it was just like the Bradley and was capable of carrying troops when it first came out, even whirlwinds had troop space at one time. They got rid of the troop capacity for some reason, then a few years later invented the razorback to fill it's role.

It still kept the same weapons though. It always seamed strange that you could upgrade the turret to two las cannons but not two auto cannons.

I wouldn't mind the pred having TL Autocannons myself, but only for a price increase. The dakka pred is cheap enough as it is.

No. Krak Missiles are better than Autocannon shells. And I'd never fire Blast instead with stats like that.

two auto canons, not sure if i like twin linked, would be great for anti air also. Yea you would need a point increase.

ChrisWWII wrote:Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast

So you are proposing arming predators with a cyclone missile launcher? Cool idea! But don't call it an Autocannon.

Why not? It can have the stats of a cyclone, but just firing shells like a tank does.

That being said, I think that the Predator is meant to be a cross of an IFV and a MBT. It's clearly not an IFV, that's a Razorback or a Chimera. It's not a MBT, that job is filled by the Leman Russ. So, it's a kind of cross in a way...which is why I gave it the stats that I did. It's got lots of firepower, but it's not as shooty as the Leman Russ.

It's a light tank, with light weaponsry, although I agree the autocannon needs just a little bit more kick.
I'm liking the idea of AP3, perhaps a slight strength increase as well, but nothing more.

personally i like the idea of leaving the guns alone in terms of statline wise and just gving it more, ie take the autocannon sponsons and tl turret

Nnnno. Autocannon sponsons don't make much sense for a light tank like that.

Just increase its points by five or ten and give it a TL autocannon, then adjust the TLLC upgrade accordingly.

LASCANNON SPONSONS

Lascannons are still lighter than autocannons as far as actual weight and size goes.

sure

what im trying to get at however is that like some peole have said here the main cannon autocannon is MASSIVE compared with the manportable version, theres nothing to say that a autocannon sponson couldnt be scaled to fit?

That's merely because it'd look silly on the tank otherwise, especially now that it's a tank instead of an IFV.

my point still stands

games workshop has to make a descision when building its statlines and models
pick one of the following

epic weapons
realistic to fluff weapons
game balance weapons

inevitably they pick the third option thus i see no issue with GW making this pattern available

I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

If you can mount 2 assault cannon, I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to mount 2 standard auto cannon? Not sure about the exterminator though, but maybe.

The exterminator cannon is equivalent in size and weight to the Leman Russ Battle Cannon and similar equipment. Assault cannons are infantry weapons. Large ones to be sure, but still infantry weapons.

A pair of autocannons is fine, give it twin-linked and raise its price by ten-fifteen or so points. But the Exterminator Autocannon is a different thing entirely.

Melissia wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

And yet a Rhino chassis can hold a demolisher cannon? What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too. And don't say the AC is heavier, CSM termies sport the Reaper AC, which is basically just a short ranged version, CSM Havocs have AC's, Sentinels, Guardsmen, this is not by any means a tank only weapon. Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's, a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker. Giving it a 'sitting on a tank' upgrade would be fine, probably unneeded as you need to consider the role it fills, but fine none-the-less.
I do agree that LC is a lighter weapon, but only because of energy storage density, also LC should have no recoil (which is always why I find Sci-Fi lasers hilarious), the weapon itself is pretty much equivalent sized though.
I kind of like the idea of fitting a Cyclone ML to it though.

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:I see no issue with giving a Predator the LR Exterminator TL AC. It would take the role away from Rifleman dreds, but thats ok, they always seemed a little funny used that way.

I do. No way in hlel is the predator capable of handling that heavy weapon.

And yet a Rhino chassis can hold a demolisher cannon?

In case you weren't paying attention (you weren't), the demolisher cannon is not housed in a turret complex, but instead takes up a massive amount of the vehicle itself.

Meanwhile the Leman Russ Demolisher? It has that demolisher on its TURRET. Leman Russ tanks are just that big compared to the lightweight Rhino chassis.

What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too.

No it's not.

Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's

No it wouldn't. Dreadnoughts are taller and have more surface area on which to put weapons than a Rhino chassis. Their arms are basically twin turrets to begin with rather than one single one, which can either hold a melee weapon or a ranged one. The Dreadnoughts don't have an Exterminator Autocannon. They have one turret on the left which has a twin-linked autocannon. Then another turret on the right, which also has a twin-linked autocannon. Both of these weapons are supported by a very heavy, slow, and sturdy walker.

Heavy, slow, and sturdy are three things which the Predator is not.

a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker.

No it wouldn't, for the reason above.

compare the size of a dreadnought to the pred, the thing is tiny, if a dread can hold a tl auto cannon then a pred can, if the thing can hold two then i dont see why the pred cant have sponsons, same number of guns on a BIGGER chassis