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kenshin620 wrote:So now this is more of a select buff, make IG better and everyone else worse off? When did IG need all these buffs again aside from units like Ogryns

When did anyone need buffs?

They've never needed one.
The whole point of this is it's a spinoff from another thread, wherein suggestions were made to make Heavy Bolters a more appealing choice for Heavy Weapons Teams and Devastator/Tacticals.
You know, something to try to cut down on the complained about Autocannon/Missile Launcher 'spam'.

But of course, someone cried out that "But if Heavy Bolters get better--than why not my Autocannons!". Things spiraled out from there, and the OP made this thread without really considering the context of the other thread.

If Autocannons were made better--points balancing and availability would have to be taken into consideration. There has to be a give and take, not simply give give give.

IG always needs more buffs! A buff for every soldier I say!!

-cgmckenzie

This is my proposed stat line for Guardsmen

WS:10 BS:10 S:10 T:10 W:10 Init: 10 Sv: 2+/2++



BUt yes buffed autocannons mean psyrifledreads that are deadly, Hydras that are even better, etc. These are all fine if you up the costs, but 75 point Hydras/HWS that can just mow down Marines? I do not like that idea for game balance.

ChrisWWII wrote:This is my proposed stat line for Guardsmen

WS:10 BS:10 S:10 T:10 W:10 Init: 10 Sv: 2+/2++



BUt yes buffed autocannons mean psyrifledreads that are deadly, Hydras that are even better, etc. These are all fine if you up the costs, but 75 point Hydras/HWS that can just mow down Marines? I do not like that idea for game balance.

A:0? could work

Also I think Autocannons should be S:10 AP:1 Heavy100


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and free for every guard squad of 10 men

Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

yeah pretty much

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?


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[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.
2 I have now revised the autocannons calibre-if a bolter is 20mm then an auto cannon is about 50mm+. this size of APHE shell hitting you HURTS. even if you are wearing power armour.
3 it is true that watching marines of any sort shrugging of hits from weapons like these hurts moral BADLY.
4 power armour is NO WERE NEAR like tank armour and autocannons are desighned to kill all light and some medium TANKS.
5 I havnt eaten in about 20 hours and if you argue ill get grouchy.
6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.


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Guaiwu wrote:

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?



[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

They were talking about Grey Knight dreadnoughts who get psybolts, making their autocannons S8.

master of ordinance wrote: it is true that watching marines of any sort shrugging of hits from weapons like these hurts moral BADLY.

So get a gun that kills off Marines then, like a plasma gun, missile launcher or a lascannon.

master of ordinance wrote:

the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6 of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

And in the fluff Space Marines are much more lethal than on table-top. You can have your autocannons if I can have my AV13 terminators. Autocannons also don't "punch through powerarmour like a lascannon", they do damage, sure, but they're not guaranteed to one-shot power armour, unlike a lascannon. For someone who claims to know his guns, I find that little bit slightly disheartening. Oh, and autocannons aren't ordnance, neither in-game or in real-world terms.

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

Unless of course you play Grey Knights.

6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.

This would be a more credible assertion if you knew that ordinance and ordnance are different words.

master of ordinance wrote:
the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap

It is a game balance issue, not a fluff issue. You may know guns (maybe) but obviously have a limited understanding of the game.

master of ordinance wrote:
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

Sorry, I forget to include the sarcasm tag, thought it was obvious from the previous posts but from now on I will include it to pacify the reactionaries.

Oh, and the next time you want to hand down an ordinance, make sure you know what it means.

I'd like to see the predator up-gunned, but not other autocannons. I would propose the following (with a suitable points increase).

Predator Autocannon Str 7 AP4 Heavy 2, Blast

To me that seems more like a tank main gun, even a light/medium one.

The Predator does not need to be upgunned. Period.

The only thing it feasibly needs is a resculpt of the main gun, because it's not a unique autocannon. It's simply an autocannon.

If you want to up gun the predator, give it lascannons.

The auto cannon could do with a bit of something, and I would be willing to play with/against any of these upgrades:

1)AP2
2)Heavy 3
3)cooler models, like a big gatling gun with a crank on the side!!

Of course, once you upgrade it, you need to raise the price by 10pts or so for each model.

-cgmckenzie

Anyone who thinks autocannons are underpowered is a dumb gak.

Fetterkey wrote:<message redacted> --Janthkin

Careful careful, no swearing now.

Ah, guess the autocorrect doesn't know that one. Fixed.

They're fine. Chaos has twin linked ones, which should remain a chaos thing. They wound almost everything on a 2+, and instadeath everything except marines.

cgmckenzie wrote:If you want to up gun the predator, give it lascannons.

The auto cannon could do with a bit of something, and I would be willing to play with/against any of these upgrades:

1)AP2
2)Heavy 3
3)cooler models, like a big gatling gun with a crank on the side!!

Of course, once you upgrade it, you need to raise the price by 10pts or so for each model.

-cgmckenzie

AP2? Really? While heavy 3 would be overpowered enough, AP2 would be picking up game balance, molesting it and setting it on fire before you sacrifice it to Bunny, the Evil Mastermind.

Sorry, meant AP3. My bad, amigos. Getting rid of that armor save from SM would really make my day. But AP2 would be nice too!

-cgmckenzie

Guaiwu wrote:

Haonn wrote:Are you suggesting that the autocannon should have the option to use blast marker shots or am i just complicating things.

Maybe the flamer template?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[rant] Honestly, this whole thread is ridiculous. The Autocannon is the best value weapon in the current game, it has a decent rate of fire, good strength and AP, great range, and performs the invaluable (in 5th) job of popping transports. Saying the AC needs a face lift is like saying we need to overhaul meltaguns and give them a 72' range. Limitations are there for a reason. [/rant]

Guaiwu wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:
the autocannon is pathetic when compared to the fluff autocannon. in the fluff these things punch through powerarmour like a lascannon through butter wereas in the game an average IG squad containing 3 would struggle to kill more than 1 marine(6 shots 50% hitting for 3 hits 83.3% wounding for 2-3 wounds and the marines save 66.6% of all wounds for maybe 1 wound. this is crap

It is a game balance issue, not a fluff issue. You may know guns (maybe) but obviously have a limited understanding of the game.

master of ordinance wrote:
infact its pathetic. oh and a flamer template would be wrong-if anything a blast template. and even the small one would make an autocannon OP.

Sorry, I forget to include the sarcasm tag, thought it was obvious from the previous posts but from now on I will include it to pacify the reactionaries.

Oh, and the next time you want to hand down an ordinance, make sure you know what it means.

Bludbaff wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:1 Autocannons are str 7 NOT 8 like krak missiles.

Unless of course you play Grey Knights.

6 NOTE THE NAME. i didnt pick MASTER OF ORDINANCE for nothing. i know my guns better than most of you.

This would be a more credible assertion if you knew that ordinance and ordnance are different words.

sorry. i was tired and didnt when i wrote this and was also late for a lecture. ive eaten now so if you were hoping for me to get grouchy then your in for a let down. the autocannon is a large calibre cannon that fires a hail of of APHE shells. and i was a little out of it due to no blood sugar so i apolagise for that "i know my guns better than most of you" comment. true i know a LOT about guns and ordnance but that comment was bitchy and uncalled for. as it is i still stand by my AP 3 autocannons as a 50mm cannon should do A LOT. oh and thanks for mentioning the grey knights thing i didnt know.

As a IG player, I take offense to you saying we can just spam auto cannons! I can only get 21 in a platoon.

I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

-cgmckenzie

ph34r wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

Do you realize the effect this would have on, oh say, Hydras? Riflemen dreads? Even IG HWT?

Autocannons would need a massive price increase across the board.

Agreed.

Fix the predator, not the Autocannon.

ACs are a great weapon with two roles to fill on the battlefield. Buffing them or nerfing them would be stupid. They are about as balanced as a weapon can be in 40K.

Back in the day, the Autocannon used to be Str8. (It was also a blast weapon)

I could see a Predator Autocannon being R48" Str8 AP4 Heavy 2, Ordnance

How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

Lysenis wrote:How about giving Predators Plasma Cannon Sponsons? Just saying I love the Heavy Bolter but a Plasma Cannon sponson would be simply amazing!

Blood angel players rejoice.....

yummmy yummy plasma i like that idea

It seems like everyone agrees that upgrading the autocannon is a bad idea, and that it's a good enough gun already, and the problem lies with the Predator moreso than anything.

If anything, we should change the thread title and start arguing over the Predator and its issues than autocannons.


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sorry. i was tired and didnt when i wrote this and was also late for a lecture. ive eaten now so if you were hoping for me to get grouchy then your in for a let down. the autocannon is a large calibre cannon that fires a hail of of APHE shells. and i was a little out of it due to no blood sugar so i apolagise for that "i know my guns better than most of you" comment. true i know a LOT about guns and ordnance but that comment was bitchy and uncalled for. as it is i still stand by my AP 3 autocannons as a 50mm cannon should do A LOT. oh and thanks for mentioning the grey knights thing i didnt know.

Your grammar. It hurts.

We don't know what an Imperial autocannon is, alot of people assume it's similar to a Bradley's Bushmaster, but even then, power armor essentially turns the wearer into a walking tank, and you don't see Bushmasters taking down MBTs now do you? The AP4 is good, the cannon will blow through even the fanciest carapace armor (and remember, carapace can shrug hits from what is essentiall a full auto RPG launcher), and you have to basically be walking around in a tank to get a chance to survive.

On the whole Predator issue, I think that it should come with a Twin Linked Autocannon.

I'm changing the thread's title to "Predator Discussion"

Alright, my proposed statline for the Predator autocannon is that it should have two ammo types. The Marines are all about flexibility, and reliability so that shouldn't be too insane.

Solid Shot
S: 8
AP: 3
Range: 48"
Heavy 2

High Explosive
S: 4
AP: 5
Range: 48"
Heavy 2, Blast