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First off:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Weight 58 tons, Length 7.2m, Height 4.8m
Dreadnought: Weight 12 tons, Length 2.2m, Height 3.7m
Predator: Weight 44 tons, Length 6.6m, height 4.4m
Source: Imperial Armour

Melissia wrote:Meanwhile the Leman Russ Demolisher? It has that demolisher on its TURRET. Leman Russ tanks are just that big compared to the lightweight Rhino chassis.

I am not wanting a Demolisher cannon in the turret.

Melissia wrote:

What about the Baal Predators twin-linked assault cannon? thats pretty heavy too.

No it's not.

Why? because it is on Terminators? The Assault cannon is not available to ANY standard troops in the game, that should tell you something. Besides, the ammo storage for such a high rate-of-fire weapon would be huge, which is why you need to attach it to something that can carry that much ammo. The AC obviously doesn't have that problem or troops wouldn't be taking it to the field.
Or you could simply look at models/pictures, and could easily see how much more substantial two, multi-barreled cannons are compared to a single barreled rifle type cannon.

Melissia wrote:

Also, this would disallow twin dred AC's

No it wouldn't. Dreadnoughts are taller and have more surface area on which to put weapons than a Rhino chassis. Their arms are basically twin turrets to begin with rather than one single one, which can either hold a melee weapon or a ranged one. The Dreadnoughts don't have an Exterminator Autocannon. They have one turret on the left which has a twin-linked autocannon. Then another turret on the right, which also has a twin-linked autocannon. Both of these weapons are supported by a very heavy, slow, and sturdy walker.

Look at above weight profiles, the dread is LIGHT (less than a third the weight of a Pred), its not even as tall. So any argument about surface area is ridiculous. You also have to consider the sophistication of the systems needed in a dread would take up much of the internal space in its relatively small chassis, whereas we are told how efficient and lean a Rhino chassis is.
Yet the Dread can take 2 TL AC...
Just for info sake, a Sentinel comes in at 4tons and can take an AC ..... Golly gosh!

Melissia wrote:Heavy, slow, and sturdy are three things which the Predator is not.

Dread top speed 8kph, Pred 68kph, so I'll give you that one. Dread 12 tons, Pred 44 tons ..... not winning here. As for Sturdy, just look at their in-game armor values. To be fair, the Dread does have a slightly heavier superstructure, but that would just mean even less room to support weaponry.

Melissia wrote:

a tank would have much more room for fitting projectile based weapon systems than a highly sophisticated walker.

No it wouldn't, for the reason above.

Yeah, for these 'reasons' (and because of Thunderwolf riders) your argument is invalid.

And yet, the dreadnought STILL has more surface space for its weapons. Much fo the space on the Predator is taken up by its motivation, IE, its tracks and etc, and the Predator is crewed by three, instead of the Dread, which is crewed by one whom is mind-linked to the walker.

This is pretty much the reason why the dread has two TL heavy weapons instead of one. For that matter, even with sponsons added in to a Predator Annihilator, the dread still has just as many weapons on it as the predator (both of them having four total).

The assault cannon is rarely used because it, itself, is rare . If it was merely limited to vehicles you'd also see it on Guard vehicles too, but you don't. Besides, at 24" range, and being Heavy, it's not very useful on infantry to begin with (the same problem the Multi-Melta has).

so why cant we add the sponsons to the tank??????

Autocannons are underpowered?!?! WTF??

If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

So unless i am mistaken that still the majority of the Eldar, Dark Eldar, IG, Ork and Deamon armies out in the cold with no armoru save against a cheap weapon which wounds on a 2+ and has a range of 48".

Ummmmmm. Which bit of this is underpowered?

Granted, it be nice if it was Ap3. But it would also be nice if Lascannnons were triple linked, had the Melta rule and caused instant death. Doesn't mean its a good idea.

Praxiss wrote:If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

Also, you missed SoB

Doh, knew I missed something.

Also a suit-heavy Tau army can have a heck of a lot of 3+ saves on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guaiwu wrote:Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

This is still unsubstantiated rumour and hearsay, don't forget.

Melissia wrote:And yet, the dreadnought STILL has more surface space for its weapons. Much fo the space on the Predator is taken up by its motivation, IE, its tracks and etc, and the Predator is crewed by three, instead of the Dread, which is crewed by one whom is mind-linked to the walker.

This is pretty much the reason why the dread has two TL heavy weapons instead of one. For that matter, even with sponsons added in to a Predator Annihilator, the dread still has just as many weapons on it as the predator (both of them having four total).

The assault cannon is rarely used because it, itself, is rare . If it was merely limited to vehicles you'd also see it on Guard vehicles too, but you don't. Besides, at 24" range, and being Heavy, it's not very useful on infantry to begin with (the same problem the Multi-Melta has).

Don't forget that ammo hoppers/power generators/fuel tanks for the weapons tends to take up space inside a battle tank, the dread houses it's supply within its arms.

I still love the idea of Plasma Cannon Sponsons. This way EVERYONE gets what they ask for one way or another.

You now have blast at AP2, S7 sponsons. See everyone is happy. Lets say a 45pt upgrade cost for the fire power? It has shorter range but it is the perfect between a Lascannon sponson and a Autocannon sponson.

As for the Autocannon turret, I will go over it one more time.

It is S7 AP4 Heavy 2 versus the Twin Linked Lascannon's S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Linked. There is a reason it gets 2 shots.
It trades strength for the capability to double tap. Everyone should know the rules for Doubletapping right?

I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Lysenis wrote:I still love the idea of Plasma Cannon Sponsons. This way EVERYONE gets what they ask for one way or another.

You now have blast at AP2, S7 sponsons. See everyone is happy. Lets say a 45pt upgrade cost for the fire power? It has shorter range but it is the perfect between a Lascannon sponson and a Autocannon sponson.

The Imperial Guard pays 40 points for plascans at BS3. I'd say that if Marines were to get plascan sponsons, it'd be closer to a 50-60 point upgrade.

Guaiwu wrote:

Praxiss wrote:If you target infantry, you will near-on ALWAYS wound on a 2+. It is still AP4. It's not like Ap3 is the baseline. of the armies our there, hwo many have a 3+ save?

SM
GK
CSM
Necron

Necrons are soon to go to a 4+ save, which makes the AC even better.

4+ save base for the warriors, who are going down in cost and getting a sort of invulnerable save.

So yeah.

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard pays 40 points for plascans at BS3. I'd say that if Marines were to get plascan sponsons, it'd be closer to a 50-60 point upgrade.

Agreed, should be priced near the lascannon price. 45 is dirt cheap for non overheating BS4 plasma cannons. It'd be even more expensive for BA

If you really wanted to improve game balance without screwing with weapon profiles, wargear, or models, then just make Predators available in squadrons.

3 Dakka preds is 255 pts, but eats up 3 HS slots. Make them squadronable (1-3/squadron), along with Whirlwinds, and you'll see people running them.

Tank squading though is a bit of a liability since you can get wrecked faster, but then again preds are also cheaper than russes

Although BA Pred squads might be a powerful combination. (shudders at the thought of 9 outflanking Baals)

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

Seriously??

The autocannon is somewhere between a 40-50mm cannon. The ammo is not that big. And since when do tanks carry thousands upon thousands of rounds? it would carry a few hundred rounds for the main gun of that calibre. Which would hardly fill a rhino chassis that can stuff TEN power armored marines inside!

I am sorry but I still haven't seen a valid argument against a TL autocannon turret, when speaking of fluff/mechanics.

SickSix wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Warmastersolon wrote:I think that the predator should get a TL autocannon. if they can TL the LC, why can’t they TL the AC?

Because the AC ammo takes up more space than the batteries required to power a lascannon?

Seriously??

The autocannon is somewhere between a 40-50mm cannon. The ammo is not that big. And since when do tanks carry thousands upon thousands of rounds? it would carry a few hundred rounds for the main gun of that calibre. Which would hardly fill a rhino chassis that can stuff TEN power armored marines inside!

Stop calling it a tank.

Seriously. It's not. The "tank" for Space Marines is the Land Raider. The Predator is a mobile firebase when Devastators would be impractical.

The Predator variant with Autocannon/HBs is used for killing infantry and light vehicles. They can swap out the HBs for Lascannons if they think the mission profile will demand it.
The Predator variant with Lascannons all around is used for killing tanks. They can swap the sponsons for Heavy Bolters for close in defense if they think, again, the mission profile will demand it.

The reason the autocannon ammo is said to 'take up more space' than the batteries required to power the lascannon is that the autocannon also has an automated ammunition feeder so that it can maintain a constant stream of fire.
The lascannons do not have such a thing.

I am sorry but I still haven't seen a valid argument against a TL autocannon turret, when speaking of fluff/mechanics.

Other than it being implausible to have that kind of ammunition in a 'tank' that isn't really a tank and that is crewed by 3 of those 'power armored marines'.

It is a light tank. It is not an IFV because it has no troop capacity. It is not a scout vehicle. It is not artillery. It's a light tank.

I think you don't really have an idea of how the mechanics of the system work. The auto-feed system would not be very large or heavy, as you seem to think it would be. And it is a Heavy 2, not Heavy 6. So I am not sure where this constant stream of fire idea is coming from. It is a slightly upsized 40mm BOFORS cannon as shown in the linked video on page two of this thread.

The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Rhino. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

sorry to nitpick but i think you mean chassis of the rhino, just so's that people dont get confused aye?

Yeah, space clearly can't be the issue given that an autocannon wouldn't carry more than a few hundred rounds per barrel. Even assuming an extra 50% volume over a 40mm grenade you could still stick in 144 shells per cubic foot. So that's not much of an issue. The autoloader, given that it can fit on a Dreadnought's arm doesn't take up much space at all so that can't be the issue. Thus there isn't any really reason not to have sponson mounted autocannons.

Another option, which could also work would be assault cannon sponsons. Given that we know those are compact and that ammo for them is man portable they should easily be able to pack a pair on the Predator with an autocannon on top they would have long range capability combined with great up close firepower.

Make the assault cannon sponsons a 60 point upgrade and suddenly you're getting 8 S6 Rending shots, and 2 S7 shots for 165 points which might get people to take the Pred over rifleman dreads and the like. Of course the short range and the fact that you can't fire when moving would still make things interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranic Marta wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Land Raider is not a tank. The Land Raider is a Heavy Armored Personnel Carrier. The Predator is, by definition, a tank. It has "Tank" in its profile. The Codex, along with all other associated materials, call it a tank. Repeatedly. If memory serves, the Codex actually calls it "The Main Battle Tank of the Space Marine Forces" (My codex is 60 miles away, can't look it up.)

Now, we know the Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider. Take a look at the Dreadnought, though. It appears to only store ammunition in its arm. Look at the turret of the Predator. The Predator's turret is about three times the size of the Dreadnought's arm. That's plenty of room for ammunition in the turret alone.

Also factoring in the space vacated by taking out the transport capacity, there's plenty of room. Let's assume that the Predator has a crew of three; one gunner, one driver, and one commander. The Rhino has a crew of two, and can carry ten marines, for a total of twelve in there. Instead, we have three. That's nine marines worth of volume where you could fit ammunition. Say we give two-thirds of that to Autocannon shells, and one third to Heavy Bolter shells. That's plenty of Heavy Bolter shots for a single engagement. And more than enough Autocannon shells for a whole lot of engagements.

sorry to nitpick but i think you mean chassis of the rhino, just so's that people dont get confused aye?

Umm, no, the Predators turret is larger than a dreadnought's arm by between 2 and 4 times. I just checked a chaos plasma arm with a Predator autocannon turret.

no i mean with the fact that he said "Predator is built on the chassis of the Land Raider." sorry i should have made that clearer

Clearly with my previous post and those above there is absolutely no basis to the 'it won't fit' argument.

Time to come up with something else naysayers.

Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.

On Assault Cannon Sponsons: No. Absolutely not. You know why? Because there's the Blood Angels' Baal Predator, already. Besides Fast, there'd be no point to it.

What I think the Predator should be:

BS: 4 Armor: F 13 S: 11 R: 10

Wargear: Twin Linked Autocannon(Turret Mounted)

Cost: 60 Points

Upgrades

Replace the Twin Linked Autocannon with

A Twin Linked Assault Cannon: +15 Points
A Flamestorm Cannon: +20 Points
A Twin Linked Lascannon: +25 Points
A Plasma Cannon: +30 Points

Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons for 25 points
...or Autocannon Sponsons for 45 Points
...or Twin Linked Plasma Gun Sponsons for 50 Points
...or Lascannon Sponsons for 60 Points

(Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, Hunter Killer missiles, and the like, are unchanged.)

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.



What I think the Land Raider should be:

You mean predator

I'm not sure though that everyone should get Baal preds sans the speed though

*editting*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Yeah, I need to hire a proofreader or something.

On Assault Cannon Sponsons: No. Absolutely not. You know why? Because there's the Blood Angels' Baal Predator, already. Besides Fast, there'd be no point to it.

What I think the Predator should be:

BS: 4 Armor: F 13 S: 11 R: 10

Wargear: Twin Linked Autocannon(Turret Mounted)

Cost: 85 Points

Upgrades

Replace the Twin Linked Autocannon with

A Twin Linked Assault Cannon: +15 Points
A Flamestorm Cannon: +20 Points
A Twin Linked Lascannon: +25 Points
A Plasma Cannon: +30 Points

Take Heavy Bolter Sponsons for 25 points
...or Autocannon Sponsons for 45 Points
...or Twin Linked Plasma Gun Sponsons for 50 Points
...or Lascannon Sponsons for 60 Points

(Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, Hunter Killer missiles, and the like, are unchanged.)

The above shows what my take on it. Leave the flamer turrets to the IG and the assault cannons to the BA. I have also changed my mind on autocannon sponsons as well. Leave it as the maingun.

I would also like to see a pintle/copula mounted Multi-melta for +25/30 points. I just think it looks sexy on the LRs.

Regarding the volume discussion, we'll have to remember that the Predator is more heavily armoured than a Rhino. As such, I imagine that it has a more powerful engine to propel it. That could lead to a loss in quite a bit of space.

Predators have 2 crew though, freeing up some more space.

hurr hurr hurr

rhinos also have transport capacity ten men in power armour

somehow i think that that translates into more space

10 Men in Power armor: Probably between one and six tons, depending on the writer.

Extra Adamantine and Ceramite: Less than 10 men in power armor.

Both vehicles have exact same speed stats. In fact, since the Blood Angels could tweak them both identically, they probably have the same engine.