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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyranic Marta wrote:blits and defilers, which dont get me wrong, are cool, but they arnt the same as the versatility that having that many vehicle choices gives.

Blits as in Olbiterators as in the most versatile unit in the entire game? Sure, it's not very fun to play with them all the time, but to claim that the Chaos Codex doesn't have as much versatility is kinda bad...

Indeed, how having Units that shoot with the best, AND fight with the best, in the same unit, isn't "versatile" I have no idea. I am, of course, talking about the unloved Chaos Space Marine. Not to mention Obliterators which have access to weapons we can't get anywhere else and can fire different weapons per turn, OR Havics that can fight up close with Orks, or any of our other mean tricks....


I would personally love more Daemon Vehicles, like that Vehicle I proposed along time ago; basically it was a drop pod with guns and the Crazed Rule from the Dreadnaught; drop it down, it pops open, and then laughs maniacaly as it shoots everything around it.

that sounds good

and yes the chaos dex is versatile, i still maintain that it is one of the most versatile codicies around. However it only reflects that in its infantary, the previous poster made that very apparent by only mentioning infantry units in those that were versatile.

some vehicles to add to the effect would be nice

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

If the chaos pred got replaced with the one from the fandex on this forum, I'd be happy

I love me some warp cannons

master of ordinance wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

Remember how I first posted this in your thread?

@!ChrisWW2, super effective with a rat flail!

If were going to complain about how sm get rubbish stuff, then why dont we start a tau wishlist thread about how their tanks need work too, and elder tanks, and ork tanks, and dark elder tanks and dont forget steam tanks!

pretty much all of those tanks work ecxept for tau cause imo tau need an overhaul with thier skyrays, but other then that their tanks work too. so

Denied...

jks, i understand where your coming from but your statement is... wrong

Well of course. its an overexagurated statement designed to cause aquadness

there is only one answer to this

o.O

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:
Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Sir! Your missiles offend me! prepare to defend your honor!

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:This is a missile based Predator variant I came up with a while back.

Predator Hellstreak

BS: 4 Armor: F: 13 S: 11 R: 10

Turret Weapon: Two Twin Linked Missile Launchers(Fired as a single weapon)
Sponson Weapons: Deathwind Missile Launchers

Rules: Special Issue Missiles

In addition to the standard Frag and Krak missiles, the Hellstreak Predator may fire either Hellstreak Missiles or Thunderbolt Missiles(See below) Each launcher must fire the same type of missile, and only from the launcher, not the Deathwind launchers.

Hellstreak Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: - Type: Ignores Cover, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+), Offensive

*Offensive: Though they have no Strength value, Hellstreak Missiles do not count as Defensive weapons.

Thunderbolt Missiles

Range: 48" S: X AP: 1 Type: Thunderbolt

Thunderbolt: This weapon has no effect on Infantry. However, when targeting vehicles, ignore standard armor penetration, and roll a d6. On a 1, the hit fails to penetrate. On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, the hit is a Glancing Hit, and on a 6, the hit is a Penetrating Hit.

hmm
these rules seem suspiciusly similar to my origional Landraider Hellstreak rules.
not really that bad huh

Remember how I first posted this in your thread?

yeah. but i did origionaly invent the hellstreak missile.
still they are good rules.

I reckon I'll chime in.

Autocannon stats are fine as-is. Adjusting those is just silly when the tank, not the guns, is the problem. As such, you need to focus on the tank itself.

The first problem is the issue of heavy slots. Making a Predator a squadable vehicle (1-3) is the first fix.

The second issue is cost ... is the basic Predator worth 60 points? Would a price reduction of 5, 10, or even 15 be reasonable?

The third issue is firepower. Th eeasy fix for this is to simpy add more weapon options. Thus:

TURRET WEAPON UPGRADES (In addition to current options)
- Upgrade the Autocannon to twin-linked: +10 points
- Replace the Autocannon with a Plasma Cannon: + XX points

SPONSON WEAPON UPGRADES (in addition to current options)
- Add Plasma Gun sponsons: + XX points
- Add Stormbolter Sponsons: + 10 points


...


Telll you what, here's a completely rekitted Predator profile, taking my own suggestions into account. Has the bonus of allowing a new sprue to be made that covers the new options.

PREDATOR -- 50 points

Predator: BS 4, F 13, S 11, R 10

Unit Composition:
- 1-3 Predators
Unit Type:
- Vehicle (Tank)
Wargear:
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
- Smoke launchers
- Searchlight

Options:
- Replace Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters with:
-- Autocannon: +10 points
-- Heavy Flamer: +10 points
-- Assault Cannon: +15 points
-- Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak Missiles: +20 points
-- Multimelta: +20 points
-- Plasma Cannon: +20 points
-- Lascannon: +30 points
-- Twin-linked Lascannon: +45 points

- May take side sponsons with:
-- Storm Bolters: +10 points
-- Flamers: +10 points
-- Heavy Bolters: +20 points
-- Meltaguns: +20 points
-- Plasma Guns: +30 points
-- Lascanons: +60 points

- May take any of the following:
-- a Storm Bolter: +5 points
-- a Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 points
-- a dozer blade: +5 points
-- Extra Armor: +15 points




(PHEW that's a lot of typing!)

This gives an option for a cheap heavy bolter platform, the standard AC predator stays at 60 points, but you have a huge array of upgrade options, letting you build a tank that your chapter really wants. You can have a 60 point "More dakka!" version with twin-linked heavy bolters and storm bolter sponsons, the "Bog Standard" AC pred with a pair of heavy bolters, a flamer tank, a melta tank, plasma options, a missile launcher for those who want the single Str 8 shot instead of a pair of Str 7, the dead killy Lascannon version, even an Assault Cannon version (Twin-linked staying a Blood Angel exclusive on the Baal.) Personally, I'd take away the side lascannon options as it looks silly and compromises the basis of the chassis, but, it's traditional. Then again, since you can take a second AC-only pred for the same cost as strapping two lascannon to an existing pred, taking that option away wouldn't be a terrible thing.

In essence, you have a "Tactical tank" as opposed to the "Devastator Tank" of the Imperial Guard ... lighter, faster, but more lightly armed. Taking a main gun and a pair of support weapons lets you rip it up, and the 75 point "Autocannon turret, pair of Storm Bolter sponsons, additional storm bolter" is a dakka machine that can move 6" and fire all weapons, giving a better feel for a light tank zipping around and doing its thang.

Might want to double-check the points costs on a few items as I kinda threw it together, but it passes the eyeball test.

Wakshaani wrote:I reckon I'll chime in.

Autocannon stats are fine as-is. Adjusting those is just silly when the tank, not the guns, is the problem. As such, you need to focus on the tank itself.

The first problem is the issue of heavy slots. Making a Predator a squadable vehicle (1-3) is the first fix.

The second issue is cost ... is the basic Predator worth 60 points? Would a price reduction of 5, 10, or even 15 be reasonable?

The third issue is firepower. Th eeasy fix for this is to simpy add more weapon options. Thus:

TURRET WEAPON UPGRADES (In addition to current options)
- Upgrade the Autocannon to twin-linked: +10 points
- Replace the Autocannon with a Plasma Cannon: + XX points

SPONSON WEAPON UPGRADES (in addition to current options)
- Add Plasma Gun sponsons: + XX points
- Add Stormbolter Sponsons: + 10 points


...


Telll you what, here's a completely rekitted Predator profile, taking my own suggestions into account. Has the bonus of allowing a new sprue to be made that covers the new options.

PREDATOR -- 50 points

Predator: BS 4, F 13, S 11, R 10

Unit Composition:
- 1-3 Predators
Unit Type:
- Vehicle (Tank)
Wargear:
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter
- Smoke launchers
- Searchlight

Options:
- Replace Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters with:
-- Autocannon: +10 points
-- Heavy Flamer: +10 points
-- Assault Cannon: +15 points
-- Missile Launcher with Frag and Krak Missiles: +20 points
-- Multimelta: +20 points
-- Plasma Cannon: +20 points
-- Lascannon: +30 points

- May take side sponsons with:
-- Storm Bolters: +10 points
-- Flamers: +10 points
-- Heavy Bolters: +20 points
-- Meltaguns: +20 points
-- Plasma Guns: +30 points
-- Lascanons: +60 points

- May take any of the following:
-- a Storm Bolter: +5 points
-- a Hunter-Killer Missile: +10 points
-- a dozer blade: +5 points
-- Extra Armor: +15 points




(PHEW that's a lot of typing!)

This gives an option for a cheap heavy bolter platform, the standard AC predator stays at 60 points, but you have a huge array of upgrade options, letting you build a tank that your chapter really wants. You can have a 60 point "More dakka!" version with twin-linked heavy bolters and storm bolter sponsons, the "Bog Standard" AC pred with a pair of heavy bolters, a flamer tank, a melta tank, plasma options, a missile launcher for those who want the single Str 8 shot instead of a pair of Str 7, the dead killy Lascannon version, even an Assault Cannon version (Twin-linked staying a Blood Angel exclusive on the Baal.) Personally, I'd take away the side lascannon options as it looks silly and compromises the basis of the chassis, but, it's traditional. Then again, since you can take a second AC-only pred for the same cost as strapping two lascannon to an existing pred, taking that option away wouldn't be a terrible thing.

In essence, you have a "Tactical tank" as opposed to the "Devastator Tank" of the Imperial Guard ... lighter, faster, but more lightly armed. Taking a main gun and a pair of support weapons lets you rip it up, and the 75 point "Autocannon turret, pair of Storm Bolter sponsons, additional storm bolter" is a dakka machine that can move 6" and fire all weapons, giving a better feel for a light tank zipping around and doing its thang.

Might want to double-check the points costs on a few items as I kinda threw it together, but it passes the eyeball test.

no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

master of ordinance wrote:no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

Nope, meant what I said. The turret gets a main gun (like a plasmaCANNON) while the side-sponsons get lighter weapons (like a plasmaGUN) ... this is akin to a modern tank's main gun, then smaller .50 cals for anti-infantry work.

The stormbolter option allows more anti-infantry fire (Note that as a strength 4 weapon, it may be fired in addition to the normal 1-gun limit while moving) while the flamer .... same thing, hitting more targets (template) but at a shorter range (8" vs 24") ... a fair trade. Kitting your pred up for infantry-hunting, these are good options that don't hit as hard as a heavy bolter but allow better mobility.

If, instead, you want it in a dedicated tank-hunter role, you can bristle it with lascannon.

If you want a mixed role, you can do that too.

Thus, Tactical Tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... And I realize that the main gun costs are all off, using the Autocanon baseline instad of a heavy bolter one. D"oh! Leave the Autocannon and Heavy Flamer upgrades at the shown cost, but boost the rest by ten points. Sorry about that.

Yep, all we have to do is give everything every option and we fix the game!

Guaiwu wrote:Yep, all we have to do is give everything every option and we fix the game!

Admitedly, it might be an option or two too many, but, proof of concept here.

Wakshaani wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:no offense but WHY have stormbolter and flamer sponsons on an MBT
and surely you you ment plasmaCANNON not plasmaGUN

Nope, meant what I said. The turret gets a main gun (like a plasmaCANNON) while the side-sponsons get lighter weapons (like a plasmaGUN) ... this is akin to a modern tank's main gun, then smaller .50 cals for anti-infantry work.

The stormbolter option allows more anti-infantry fire (Note that as a strength 4 weapon, it may be fired in addition to the normal 1-gun limit while moving) while the flamer .... same thing, hitting more targets (template) but at a shorter range (8" vs 24") ... a fair trade. Kitting your pred up for infantry-hunting, these are good options that don't hit as hard as a heavy bolter but allow better mobility.

If, instead, you want it in a dedicated tank-hunter role, you can bristle it with lascannon.

If you want a mixed role, you can do that too.

Thus, Tactical Tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... And I realize that the main gun costs are all off, using the Autocanon baseline instad of a heavy bolter one. D"oh! Leave the Autocannon and Heavy Flamer upgrades at the shown cost, but boost the rest by ten points. Sorry about that.

Ok. i am understanding this. actualy i like your argument. it IS true but if you want to represent a browning.50 then why not use the venerable heavy stubber. after all it is the 40K version of one.
also the sponsons are desighned to allow the tank to mount a heavier secondary arment. in away almost like the tanks of WW1 exept they mounted their main arment in their sponsons and had no turrets exept the FT17 that had a turret but no sponsons.

master of ordinance wrote:
Ok. i am understanding this. actualy i like your argument. it IS true but if you want to represent a browning.50 then why not use the venerable heavy stubber. after all it is the 40K version of one.
also the sponsons are desighned to allow the tank to mount a heavier secondary arment. in away almost like the tanks of WW1 exept they mounted their main arment in their sponsons and had no turrets exept the FT17 that had a turret but no sponsons.

Well, the heavy stubber would be an odd fit since it otherwise doesn't exist in the Marine weapon list. Might as well use the tool sthat are already there.

In addition, ratching up the weaponry to side-mounted heavy guns, while at the same time allowing 3 to be taken per Heavy Support Choice, can quickly get silly. If someone brought out a force whose heavy selection enabled 27 Plasma Cannons, for example, they might be punched. (3 per tank, 3 tanks per choice, 3 choices.)

Sooo, with special weapon side-sponsons and a heavy weapon main gun, they start to look comperable to tactical squads. Can move and shoot, armor instead of tou/wounds, but gets shaken, where footsloggers have ablative wounds. Fires one gun on the move or all while stationary ... it get sto be a choice that can be good, or poor, depending on the terrain. (Hint: More difficult terrain that provides cover, like trees, the better for footsloggers. Less terrain, better for Predators.)

The storm bolter is the heavy stubber's bolter statistical equivalent (in the Guard, both cost the same and are pintle mount). Use that if you don't want to use the heavy stubber.

ive used an autocannon on top of my predator for a long time and find that it usually performs very well

GW could give the predator 3 twin-link railguns. the 11 side armor gets mine killed every 2nd game before it even gets a shot off

I do think a tank should have 12 side armor.

The side armor is definitely a weakness, but I think that if it was buffed up, then go from a "pretty good tank" to "BRING IT ON" in my opinion

It probably should have 12 side armor because it is a tank, however that should come with an appropriate cost increase. And it doesn't need every weapon option in the codex.

Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

But the force organization slot would be, 60 points for one slot, Please please give it some guns

even the heavy bolter sponsins would be good, especially if the necrons are going to a 4+ save, the heavy bolter and the autocannon are going to become VERY efficent weapons able to ignore the armour of tau necrons guard nids orks eldar and dark eldar, as well as scouts and equivalent

Tyranic Marta wrote:

Guaiwu wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Personally, I think a tank that has BS 4, a Twin Linked Autocannon, and 13/12/10 Armor is worth 60 Points, while the current predator would be about 45 Points, I say.

I'd say it's worth a tad bit more than 60, myself, but meh. Two practically guaranteed S7 AP4 hits, hard to destroy without dedicated heavy AT weapons, etc...

I might ... might consider it a fraction overpriced, particularly when compared to something like the Chimera (which comes with 2 heavy weapons and transport capacity), however the armor is better, even the increasingly spammed Autocannon is going to have trouble getting through (on the front anyway). If you took a stock one at 60pts and used it to cover an advance I wouldn't consider the points wasted.

But the force organization slot would be, 60 points for one slot, Please please give it some guns

even the heavy bolter sponsins would be good, especially if the necrons are going to a 4+ save, the heavy bolter and the autocannon are going to become VERY efficent weapons able to ignore the armour of tau necrons guard nids orks eldar and dark eldar, as well as scouts and equivalent

I will agree that a HS slot can be used a lot more valuably, and maybe the Pred will become even more valuable once the new Necron codex appears. But it would still depend on your army, do the tanks need to move or not?

And yet, they're still a MERE 60 points for 13/12/10 and a twin-linked autocannon at BS4 (practically two guaranteed hits).

Dakka predators are already dirt cheap as it is, you get a lot for what you pay for.