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It came up over in the Heavy Bolter thread that Autocannons are underpowered too. Discuss ways to fix here.

Edit: The above's been argued about, and shot down, but now it seems the Predator is what really needs a buff.

What?

Auto-cannons are brilliant multi-role heavy weapons, having a high enough strength for damaging Light Armor or monsters while having a decent fire rate of 2 so they can help with hordes.

I think they are fine as they are.

With the exception of IG foot autos, imo they are fine as is

Unless you really want to make Psyflemen dreads and hydras even better

For a bit more background, over in the Heavy Bolter thread, it was acknowledged that the Heavy Bolter needed a boost, but boosting it too much would infringe on the role of the Autocannon. Then I brought up that, for a Tank's main gun(specifically the Predator) the Autocannon is too light.

Here's an idea; The Predator should come with a Twin Linked autocannon, by default.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:For a bit more background, over in the Heavy Bolter thread, it was acknowledged that the Heavy Bolter needed a boost, but boosting it too much would infringe on the role of the Autocannon. Then I brought up that, for a Tank's main gun(specifically the Predator) the Autocannon is too light.

Here's an idea; The Predator should come with a Twin Linked autocannon, by default.

But that's not improving the Autocannon, thats improving the Predator.

As for an auto cannon being too light, it fits of the SOP of the Space Marines, "Hit hard and fast." the auto cannon is small enough to be mounted on a Light/Medium tank, (which the Pred is.) while still packing enough punch.

Well, yeah, I guess so. But really, that doesn't fit with their light tank mounting a twin linked lascannon.

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Well, yeah, I guess so. But really, that doesn't fit with their light tank mounting a twin linked lascannon.

Thats just specializing for a dedicated AT role. Again the Lascannon is a lighter weapon than the one found on a Main Battle Tank such as a Russ, in that it can also be man portable. All the Predator is doing is giving it greater mobility and a stable firing platform, as fits with their combat doctrine.

To balance autocannons, given what they are, they should really be AP3. Compare them (S7 AP4, Heavy 2) to Heavy Bolters (S5 AP4, Heavy 3) and Assault Cannons (S6 AP4, Heavy 4). Heavy Bolters are obviously the weakest weapon out of the group. The Assault Cannon is meant to be a high volume type weapon. Basically an M134 Minigun. The Autocannon is basically supposed to be a 25mm Bushmaster. These things are mounted on the Bradley IFV but they also throw them on boats. I guess if you found some massive Ape-person, you could tote this thing around and shoot things with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkewcpsESHc

This thing would AP the gak out of some power armor. Forget AP4, this thing is meant to kill light armored vehicles and even enemy tanks.


To re-balance Hydras, the Hydra Autocannon trades AP for range. Flak isn't known for its armor piercing qualities. Replace the Hydra Flak Gun profile with Range 72", S7, AP5, Heavy 2. Twin linked, of course.

That could work, although an IG Gun line of the things would make Marines rather worried.

Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Autocannons are fine. Now, do I think the Predator needs a better gun than an autocannon? Yes, I do. However, the autocannon is fine as is. It's meant to be the ultimate jack of all trades weapon. It's strong enough to take down most vehicles, but it's not as good as a dedicated AT weapon. It's rapid fire enough to be a threat to infantry, but not fast enough to do it better than the dedicated anti infantry weapons. It's a generalist weapon, which is why it's considered so useful for a take all comers lists. It doesn't need to be boosted.

I agree with the above replies. It seems you have beef with the predator, not the autocannon

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that. The argument was brought up that if, for some ridiculous reason I cannot fathom, the Heavy Bolter were to be improved upon to make it require actual thought about whether or not to take it in 'competitive' play--then autocannons and assault cannons would for some unknown reason(I seriously do not understand why) need to be buffed to compensate.

It was then brought up by the OP that if heavy bolters are buffed, then autocannons need to be buffed because "It's a Tank's main gun, it should be a bit more powerful than a plasma pistol".
I brought up that the discrepancy is likely caused by the scale of models and the Predator's autocannon being beefed up because who wants a tiny gun on their tank. Someone then brought up the idea of giving Predator autocannons a submunition mode like the Tau railgun and things went up from there.

I don't see any issue with that, mind, but if you're going to claim it's the ammo type--then it would be the same sized shell no matter the mounting.
Sentinel autocannons, Vulture autocannons, Guard autocannons for their HWTs, Riflemen Dreads, Aegis platforms, Hydras etc could all be given these 'variable' shells. Someone brought up a good point about Havoc autocannons potentially making it 'unbalanced' and didn't quite understand the idea of "rebalancing"(as in: if you were to do something like this, you could easily introduce something else to offset the sudden benefit gained by the Havocs and their 4 A/C's).

If it were me? I'd alter Havocs to simply not have the ammo types. They're using Reaper autocannons anyways, they were the predecessor to assault cannons--give them more shots and an assault mode and you've got something unique for CSM.
Give the Imperial autocannons the option to forfeit a turn to 'change ammo types' and go from either a kind of fletchette round(read: submunition) or the standard round for their next shooting turn.

Voila. Fixed autocannon issue.

Kanluwen wrote:

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that

Well...

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Autocannons are underpowered too.

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

ph34r wrote:Anyone that thinks that Autocannons are bad is in all likelihood bad at the game.

Nobody incidentally said that

Well...

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Autocannons are underpowered too.

Nobody really said that in the thread though. It was more people saying that "if Heavy Bolters get a buff like you suggested--then why would I take Autocannons!".

i think taking a turn to switch is a bit much, and no csm do not use reaper autocannons on their havocks, termies dreads and defilers get those, but not csm squads predators or havoks

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:It came up over in the Heavy Bolter thread that Autocannons are underpowered too.

Good god.

They aren't. Please stop this inanity.

inanity? surely you mean insanity

Kanluwen wrote:Nobody really said that in the thread though. It was more people saying that "if Heavy Bolters get a buff like you suggested--then why would I take Autocannons!".

Yeah, but he said literally that, just now. He said exactly that Autocannons are underpowered.

make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

hmmm something tells me that game balance would fly out the window on golden fairy wings if this happened

Tyranic Marta wrote:hmmm something tells me that game balance would fly out the window on golden fairy wings if this happened

Pretty much. Esp since the Autocannon only exists for Imperial armies and CSM's. Suddenly half of the armies (loyalists +1 not so loyal anymore) have access to a cheap ap 3 weapon. ANd IG... well Ig would put the middle finger up at long fangs.

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

Do you realize the effect this would have on, oh say, Hydras? Riflemen dreads? Even IG HWT?

Autocannons would need a massive price increase across the board.

Tyranic Marta wrote:inanity? surely you mean insanity

Inanity

master of ordinance wrote:make them AP 3. something firing a hail of 20/30mm armour peircing high expklosive shells would make a mokery of power armour.
power armour is after all nowere neer as good as tank armour and these things are desighned to kill anything upto and including light/med tanks.

I would love AP3 autocannons. Can you imagine? 75 points for a squad of 3 autocannons that I can twinlink with orders and then just mow down Marines like there's no tmmrw? It'd be a total game breaker, but damn would my Hydras kill scores skyrocket!!

That being said, no it's a game breaking idea. It really is. AP3 is mena to be a slightly rare commodity you have to pay a bit for, and giving people access to cheap heavy weapons that ignore power armor is just wrong.

I still say that autocannons are perfectly fine, you have to remember that the IG can just SPAM autocannons in volumes that make any other faction can't match, and IG are already a pretty damn good codex. I don't think we need the boost.

It might make people put more terrain on the table, since SMs wouldn't be able to wander around in the open with impunity any more.

ChrisWWII wrote:I would love AP3 autocannons. Can you imagine? 75 points for a squad of 3 autocannons that I can twinlink with orders and then just mow down Marines like there's no tmmrw? It'd be a total game breaker, but damn would my Hydras kill scores skyrocket!!

That being said, no it's a game breaking idea. It really is. AP3 is mena to be a slightly rare commodity you have to pay a bit for, and giving people access to cheap heavy weapons that ignore power armor is just wrong.

I still say that autocannons are perfectly fine, you have to remember that the IG can just SPAM autocannons in volumes that make any other faction can't match, and IG are already a pretty damn good codex. I don't think we need the boost.

As a IG player, I take offense to you saying we can just spam auto cannons! I can only get 21 in a platoon.

I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

-cgmckenzie

AP3 would make Psyflemen dreads gain the ability to shoot 4 twinlinked krak missiles, now there would be no point in the missile launcher option (like anyone took it but still...)

cgmckenzie wrote:I do think they need to be AP 3. I was playing a game against CSM and they were just absorbing the rounds like it was nothing. Having SM walk straight into my gun line, kill it, and then keep going is rather disheartening.

Static gunlines arent the best of tactics and even then IG can scrounge up a ton of melta/plasma that should make marines on foot cower in fear. I think the last thing IG needs is more marine killing abilities.

So get rid of Psyriflemen dreads. Get rid of riflemen dreads for everyone but Dark Angels, in fact.

So now this is more of a select buff, make IG better and everyone else worse off? When did IG need all these buffs again aside from units like Ogryns