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Roadkill Zombie wrote:Pulsa Rokkits used to be in 2nd edition 40k. Basically when they were fired they would pulse out at a random distance and knock down everything in that distance. The pulse would also be a random distance every single turn. They were rarely lethal unless you were in a building and the building got knocked down. They worked pretty much the same way in Epic.

Bang on, though you forgot to include 'They further bogged down an already unbearably fiddly and overcomplicated game.'.

English Assassin wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Pulsa Rokkits used to be in 2nd edition 40k. Basically when they were fired they would pulse out at a random distance and knock down everything in that distance. The pulse would also be a random distance every single turn. They were rarely lethal unless you were in a building and the building got knocked down. They worked pretty much the same way in Epic.

Bang on, though you forgot to include 'They further bogged down an already unbearably fiddly and overcomplicated game.'.

All games that came from the UK during the 70's, 80's and 90's were 'unbearably fiddly and overcomplicated'.

...said the man who played Avalon Hills 'Squad leader'.

I didn't bother mentioning it because I don't see it like that. I actually prefer 2nd edition 40k to every other version that has been made since. I used to play Star Fleet Battles quite a bit so a game like 2nd Edition 40k is nothing compared to that. And I find it quite enjoyable with more character.

Squats are interesting to say the least, but I feel that they didnt do their dwarf counterparts a whole lot of justice,
and they arent really intrinsic to the 40k universe. They had to go

Roadkill Zombie wrote:. I used to play Star Fleet Battles quite a bit...

Say no more! If you used to play Star Fleet Battles often, then you have my resepect. You could probably even decipher Kryomek or Tractics with a minimum of effort!

Beastmaster wrote:Squats are interesting to say the least, but I feel that they didnt do their dwarf counterparts a whole lot of justice,
and they arent really intrinsic to the 40k universe. They had to go

I think the only reason that the were not a large part of the 40k universe because the studio guys never really had an interest in them. If one of them did they would haver been included more in the fluff of the time. Remember neither Tua or Necrons were really a large part of the 40k univers until they decided to include them. Its all a matter of what they feel like writing into the story.

Yes, but if no one had any interest in them, then why would they introduce them to the game?

Evidently at some point, that interest was there.

At some later stage (post-1992) it became apparent it no longer was.

It is just like how Dark Eldar and Orks were kinda forgotten about at the end of third through 4th ed. It all is up to the whims of the studio heads.

Orks were forgotten? Where have I been?

Squats were pretty fun and silly in the Epic Space Marine 2nd edition with the rotocraft and their armored train and the like. However, in 40k, they really weren't that interesting or unique. They played very much like IG at the time, except they were shorter and had a few squats in exoarmor walking around. The bikes were amusing, but since the IG had bikes and jetbikes at the time they were not really unique either.

I have a friend who, in larger battles, fields half of his force as squats just counting as regular Imperial guard. He has a unit of squat bikes as his "rough riders" and so on. You can easily use squats as IG any day of the week, just don't expect to see space dwarves officially come back into the game as a separate codex. If you have a crazy abundance of the old exoarmored squats play a space marines counts as list instead. Bikes and trikes are easily fit into that force too. All pretty easy to do.

Given the availability of plastics it would be pretty easy to convert plastic WHFB dwarves with plastic IG weapons and make a complete squat IG army from readily available models. In fact I'd really love to see someone do that. Counts as armies are perfectly legal and converting WHFB minis means they are all still GW minis. No harm, no foul. If I wasn't building a chaos renegades IG army I would actually give the squat version a try, but I really don't need 2 effective IG armies in my collection.

Skriker


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Ogryn wrote:Yes, but if no one had any interest in them, then why would they introduce them to the game?

Because Rogue Trader came into being as a sci fi version of WHFB first and foremost. So space humans, space elves and space dwarves all dropped readily into that concept.

Skriker

Ogryn wrote:Orks were forgotten? Where have I been?

Back in the day of 3rd for you kiddies, after the initial release of both Orks and Dark Eldar there was really very little support for them in the way of new models. Orks had alittle boost with codex armagedon but that was about it. Dark Eldar had an updated codex around 2004, but all it really did was change some points in the old codex. From the time they were released dark eldar did not get anything new until this year that was about 10 years of nothing. For Orks they had as few new foot models, like gazgull, but had to use the same old vehicles from 2nd ed and gorkamorka until the new codex came out around the end of 4th begining of 5th. My point for squats is that there is no time table for redoing armies, as DE and Orks show, and things only get done done when somebody in the studio feels like taking an interest in it.

Well, point taken.

Haha that's a funny picture

The letter by Jervis on the first page of the thread gives a full explanation of why they were dropped. Certainly, it was better than the extremely derogatory letter reply that was printed in the WD magazine, which was perhaps indicative of how many within the upper echelons of GW view the miniature buying public.

The only plus that came from all of it - GW learned the folly of deleting even one of the lesser liked races. I think certainly the fan outcry of Squats being dropped prevented the deletion of the Dark Eldar at one point. While I was working for GW I heard that there was talk of a hive fleet finding its way to Commoragh, fortunately for us this did not happen as they have bounced back with quite possibly the most well designed and evocative miniature lines that GW has ever produced.

Squats were pretty fun and silly in the Epic Space Marine 2nd edition with the rotocraft and their armored train and the like. However, in 40k, they really weren't that interesting or unique. They played very much like IG at the time, except they were shorter and had a few squats in exoarmor walking around. The bikes were amusing, but since the IG had bikes and jetbikes at the time they were not really unique either.

I think this is it exactly, Squats in Epic were so much better realised than their 28mm equivalents. Hopefully all of the rumours of Demiurg becoming playable with the next Tau codex will be true, and once again heavily armoured stunties can take to the battlefield

I have never heard of Squats in Epic....

They were a great little model range Ogryn, I think much better realised as a concept than 40k ever was. There was this expansion for Epic Space Marine, giving details of all their forces and a lot of background attention. They were pretty effective in the game, although a lot of their war machines were a little fragile and played more like super-heavies than titans (i.e. no damage allocation and tables, just a failed save and *boom*).



Exo-armoured Squats on a trike!



This guy has got a great looking army with a selection of the most popular war machines, well worth taking a look at!

http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=ne_squat

Thanks, Pacific. That IS a great lookin' army.

My friend is starting a Squat army using converted Dwarfs. I shall post pics when he is done.

The Mad Tanker wrote:I wanted to try to model some fantasy dwarfs with lasguns and stuff to use in my Imperial Guard army just for fun.

I was thinking of making marines out of them. Just for the fun of it.

i have a bunch of squats, mostly bodies, was gonna make a chaos squat thing but 40k became stale for me (that and I don't want to paint, build and buy all those tanks) so said to hell with it and set them aside
might make them chaos dwarves or something, I donno


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gaovinni wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I wanted to try to model some fantasy dwarfs with lasguns and stuff to use in my Imperial Guard army just for fun.

I was thinking of making marines out of them. Just for the fun of it.

chaos squats had power armour and terminator armour models

i want Squats now, they sound....interesting, and their fluff is not force-fed Grimdark like everyone else. execpt Orks

hand banana wrote:i want Squats now, they sound....interesting, and their fluff is not force-fed Grimdark like everyone else. execpt Orks

Probably would be by now if they hadn't been canned. All the other armies used to be that way too...they have just been around longer to be revised and changed more.

Skriker

Yes that's absolutely right.

A lot of the condemnation levelled at the Squats is based on their concept and models, but I think if you had taken any other race (even Marines) frozen them in time while letting the other races develop, you would have exactly the same situation for them instead. Look how almost comical the older Dark Eldar range looked, and they were only from 3d edition. The game, imagery and atmosphere have changed so much since those Squat models were first designed, it is not a fair way of measuring them to compare them to the standards of modern miniatures.

But I think in the same way that British people love to stand in queues (a lot of the time they don't even know why - if you asked a lot of people why they were standing in a queue they wouldn't be able to answer you, it's just an instinctive pull) a lot of people just roll out the old 'Yeah, Squats are rubbish, dwarves in space, what a stupid concept' without even considering the reason they think that beyond blindly repeating the popularist viewpoint generally found on the internet.

I have no doubt at all if GW were to have a proper crack at Demiurg (as they almost certainly have done, if rumours are to be believed) then no doubt it will be suitably awe-inspiring!

Pacific wrote:A lot of the condemnation levelled at the Squats is based on their concept and models, but I think if you had taken any other race (even Marines) frozen them in time while letting the other races develop, you would have exactly the same situation for them instead. Look how almost comical the older Dark Eldar range looked, and they were only from 3d edition. The game, imagery and atmosphere have changed so much since those Squat models were first designed, it is not a fair way of measuring them to compare them to the standards of modern miniatures.

The actually liked the squat mini line and would have been really amused to see some of the Space Marine 2nd edition stuff get translated into 40k. That would have been a riot I think. The only squat figs I laughed at were the squat lords tooled out in the heavy exo-armor suits and then plopped down on a bike. Those had to be the silliest and goofiest looking miniatures ever, making even the original Lemartes figure look high quality.

Skriker

I like Squats so I believe that there are still some of them after Tyranid invasion and want to convert Dwarf Engineer into a techpriest for my IG army.

Sounds nice. Post some pics when your done.

I've got a Squat Primaris Psycher (or would that be Elder?) chucking about in my guard army, and he does pretty well for all his not existing in current fluff and all. ...I won't go so far as to give him a trike however. ^^

If you want to call the forces of the Mechanicus, who now seem to have many brains in jars with beards drawn on them, a Ninja Tyranid Hive Fleet that struck so deep into Segementum Solar so near to Holy Terra and did nothing else and promptly disappeared not doing or harming anything else and drew no response at all from the Imperium, then sure. But there was no Tyranid Hive Fleet...

@Wyrmilla: Pics?