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DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
Really, I think anyone below the Guard rank of Colonel has no place in normal games of 40k, and even that is pushing it.

While I don't necessarily disagree in principle, we do have a humongous number of ridiculously high ranking individuals as playable characters in this game. We have Astartes Chapter Masters and Eldar Farseers, even now-dead Farseers of unparalleled renown, the mightiest mortal champions of Chaos including the Warmaster of the Traitor Legions. We have the most capable commanders of the Tau empire and their ruling caste as playable units, the mightiest Ork warlords and the most powerful Dark Eldar archon available as common HQ's. We have Inquisitors who rule entire sectors from the shadows and the most legendary heroes from amongst the mythical Grey Knights available to play with as well.

Seems sorta silly to exclude higher ranked IG commanders simply on the basis of being too senior when you look at it like that.

I would like to see mercs in the next codex please.

Nerfs
Lots and lots of nerfs

Considering that I have an unopened blister and a few open ones hanging around since the 90s, I want to see Human Bombs return. Those guys were fun, but I won't hold my breath.

The other thing that would be cool would be to return to the old 2nd Edition heavy weapon team rule where an Infantry Squad could leave behind their heavy weapon to provide covering fire mid-game for the advancing squad.

Also, since I know my wish list will never even remotely have a chance of being fulfilled, include Ciaphas Cain as a choice so I feel the need to use my Valhallans as Valhallans and not Krieg place holders for larger games. Maybe something like the house rules I've been toying with for him (cut and pasted here for others to steal).

Ciaphas Cain
WS 6 BS5 S3 T3 W3 I3 A3 Ld10 Sv4+
Carapace armor, laspistol, chainsword
IC, Stubborn, Summary Execution, Aura of Discipline, Hero of the Imperium, Emperor's Sense of Humor

Hero of the Imperium: While attached to a squad that has at least one living member, excluding Jurgen, no wounds may be allocated to Ciaphas Cain as Cain's uncanny survival instinct places him just out of harm's way.

Emperor's Sense of Humor: At the start of the movement phase, before reserves enter, if Cain is no longer part of another unit, excluding Jurgen, then he automatically falls back in the direction directly away from the nearest enemy. If this move brings him into coherency with a friendly unit, then he joins that unit and that unit no counts as having moved. Additionally, any attacks made against that unit in the following enemy's turn may re-roll to hit representing the danger Cain heroically fled into. Should this move bring him within an inch of an enemy unit, then he counts as charging.

Jurgen
WS 3 BS3 S3 T3 W2 I3 A1 Ld10 Sv5+
Flak armor, laspistol, meltagun, frag and krak grenades
Feel No Pain, Blank, Cain's Aide

Blank: Jurgen and all models, friend or foe, within 2" are immune to all psychic powers. Any psychic powers targeting Jurgen or a model within 2" of him, or a psychic power cast by a model within 2" of Jurgen, automatically fail.

Cain's Aide: In order to best serve Cain and ensure that a flask of tanna is always at hand for the Commissar, Jurgen must remain within 2" of Cain at all times if at all possible. If Cain joins a unit, then Jurgen will likewise do so, counting as an IC.

AtoMaki wrote:Space Marines should be "meh" compared to Guardsmen in the terms of badassery.

And a few more things i want to see in the IG dex:
- Heavy 5 HStubber (can be assault 5, but only with -1 BS), and HStubber option as special weapon
- Assault 2 Grenade Launchers
- HWT-s as 2 models "mini-unit"
- HWS can take Signum and Vox
- Auxiliary Grenade Launchers and a whole arsenal of grenades (concussion(defensive)/smoke/gas/rad)
- Lascannon sponsons for Leman Russes
- Command, Drop and Heavy Weapons Platoons
- Some sort of open-topped fast skimmer transporter/gunship, similar to the Intruder from the Killzone games

Considering that space marines are super soldiers and guardsmen are the ordinary rank and file, basically what a guardsman do a marine can do better (except hiding in a small space, power armor would be a problem). What ordinary guardsmen are in the fluff (and on the tabletop) right now is, in my opinnion, what they should be. Veterans COULD be more badass but is not a necessity. They are fine as they are now but I admit I would like it if they could get even more sepcial equipment and weapons. A combi-lasgun would be something I'd like to see in the future. A lasgun-grenade launcher for example. Could be given to a set amount (or any) veterans or such. I already do convert my veterans with extra equipment and custom weapons to distinguish them even more from the ordinary guardsmen. I also have a marine army for two reasons: 1. I love the look of bolt weaponry, 2. I love the look of the rhino chassis tanks (especially the predator), but there is one thing I hate about marines and that is that damn power armor. So... I have a full force of scouts with predators as heavy support and the scouts are converted with well equipped guard veteran troopers in mind. Combi.weapons for sergeants and scopes, silencers, bipods and loads of other things on the normal scouts. I would do the same with IG if combi-lasguns would exist and veterans could have them... although I mainly play with Dark Eldar at the moment...

Guard are fine as they are, maybe with a raise and drop in price on units, with some of the CC units being more useful..

Blacksails wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:
No. I would just add in proper military ranks such as lieutenant (lou-tennant not left there is no 'f' there), or colonel.

Silly Americans...Lieutenant is pronounced 'Left'tenant. You're all just in denial.

No, no it's not.

If my army were british I might field leftenants, if it were time-lords I would just field tennants. But since my army is from all over the galaxy and guardsmen are rarely well educated beyond rifle drills and maybe grox shaving, I think we'll stick closer to the phonetic pronunciation.

Orders are remarkably silly, one would think that once you have Voxes (Voxs, Voxen), anything your troops do would be an order. And if all it took was some officer barking orders to motivate my troops to fight harder, my Commissars would be even more effective.

Doctrines need to come back, they allowed for a great level of customization to reflect the diverse nature of various guard regiments without creating the codex glut that the marines have. You could make your Catachan play more obviously different than your Cadians, which are distinct from DKoK. And the doctrines had little drawback, since nobody runs more than 4 different units from the restricted list at a time anyway.

Make Rough Riders into a bike unit, make models that are actually on bikes, and make the existing ones "count as bikes". Either cheaper Ogryns or T5 Ogryns. Make ratling snipers worth something.

Armless Failure wrote: or T5 Ogryns.

But Ogryns are already T5...

AtoMaki wrote:

Armless Failure wrote: or T5 Ogryns.

But Ogryns are already T5...

Sorry I meant 6

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

Armless Failure wrote: or T5 Ogryns.

But Ogryns are already T5...

Sorry I meant 6

As tough as most MC? Let's not.

Mephiston rocks T6, and he's not a monsterous creature.

Armless Failure wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

Armless Failure wrote: or T5 Ogryns.

But Ogryns are already T5...

Sorry I meant 6

As tough as most MC? Let's not.

Mephiston rocks T6, and he's not a monsterous creature.

Mephiston is also a SPECIAL CHARACTER who is also a space marine who is also the chief librarian of the Blood Angels.
He's pretty much a MC in all but name anyway

Armless Failure wrote:
Sorry I meant 6

Toughness 6 means they can shrug off bolters but still afraid of plasma guns so sounds like an alright compromise to me.
Assuming they're still a lot of points, obviously.
Guard in general need some love in close combat. At the moment they're about 4 stars with shooting, 0 stars in CC.
Making them Very Weak rather than Literally Useless would not break the game or need some point boost.
An order that gave them Furious Charge would suffice.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Yeah, because Mephiston was the only T6 Marine and not that Mary-Sue Cassius (for only 25 points more than a base Chaplain also gets Feel No Pain and a combi-flamer with inferno rounds).

But Cassius isn't that good...

Storm troopers able to take a Valk as a dedicated transport. it fits for them, game play and fluff

Joey wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
Sorry I meant 6

Toughness 6 means they can shrug off bolters but still afraid of plasma guns so sounds like an alright compromise to me.
Assuming they're still a lot of points, obviously.
Guard in general need some love in close combat. At the moment they're about 4 stars with shooting, 0 stars in CC.
Making them Very Weak rather than Literally Useless would not break the game or need some point boost.
An order that gave them Furious Charge would suffice.

This is the exact reason I was suggesting 6. Ogryn are also borderline monstrous creatures, and making them a solid melee tarpit is more use than they are now, and they become reasonable for their current point cost (likely still not good). Guard lacks even a good countercharge unit. The Tau have Kroot, the SoB have Battle Conclaves, the Necron have Flayed ones (not generally considered a countercharge option, but better melee per point than ogryn). You could give them more WS or Improve the Ripperguns, but really those don't fit the fluff, they're big, bumbling and too hard and stupid to die.

The re-introduction of doctrines

I once had an idea of minor MC rules for Ogryns.

Their CC attacks reduce the opponent's Sv by 2, so 2+ becomes 4+, 4+ becom,es 6+, 5+ becomes -. Against Vehicles, they roll Str+D3+D6.
They can fire their weapons tweice if they don't move, or fire an second weapon.
They have MTC.

If not T6, then FnP. Maybe a touch too strong, and I would hate to see the points go up on them.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:Limit the amount of special weapons on veterans and Command Squads to 2. Increase Chimera side armor to 11 and increase cost to 65. Allow vendettas and valkyries fire all weapons at cruising speed but increase cost by 30 points. Make their one shot missiles not suck or be one shot. Remove vendetta transport capability, but give them heavy bolter sponsons standard. (Turn them into a gunship role only.) Make hyrda turret a single weapon but increase cost by 15. Improve leman russ punisher, eradicator turret weapons. Make punisher str. 6 ap - 36" range. Make eradicator str. 5 AP 3. Increase executioner cost by another 10-15 points. Add a drawback that reduces an combined platoons ld. for orders by 1 for each squad over 1 in the combined platoon due to increased difficulty of organizing a large mob. Have each vox caster in the squad reduce this penalty by 1. Vox casters no longer allow rerolls but double the range of orders if both the command squad and ordered squad have one. Make stormtroopers about 13 points and change their hot shot lasguns to str. 4 ap - 18" assault 2. Give penal legionairres a suicide ability. Should a penal legionaire squad remain in combat at the end of any assault phase after pile in moves are made, the imperial guard player may choose to sacrifice the unit for the emperor. Each model friend or foe takes a str.4 ap - hit for each penal legionaire it is in base contact with then immediately remove the penal legionaire unit as casualties. If any characters are attached to the unit, this ability may not be used.

This.

Also, make veterans elites like in the previous codex (without the 0-1). While Storm troopers can be more upfront assault specialists, with range 18" str 3 ap 4 assault2 hellguns and the ability to take three spec weapons, the veterans can play a light infantry/ scouts/ sabotage role. They can only have flak armour, except they have stealth, scouts, infiltrate and move through cover (maybe only a few of these or even one but you get the idea). They could also have some demo charges but only two special weapons (my reasoning is that while the vets will be trusted with special weapons more than regular infantrymen, they get more. However, stormtroopers, being better trained, would get more). What could define these units from others are special rules. For example, stromtroopers get rules that allow them to take gakloads of fire, while vets are get more stealthy/ better at ambushes and sabotage/ better in close combat rules (ws4 as well).

assault cannon sentinels....please bring them back

Armless Failure wrote:

Joey wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
Sorry I meant 6

Toughness 6 means they can shrug off bolters but still afraid of plasma guns so sounds like an alright compromise to me.
Assuming they're still a lot of points, obviously.
Guard in general need some love in close combat. At the moment they're about 4 stars with shooting, 0 stars in CC.
Making them Very Weak rather than Literally Useless would not break the game or need some point boost.
An order that gave them Furious Charge would suffice.

This is the exact reason I was suggesting 6. Ogryn are also borderline monstrous creatures, and making them a solid melee tarpit is more use than they are now, and they become reasonable for their current point cost (likely still not good). Guard lacks even a good countercharge unit. The Tau have Kroot, the SoB have Battle Conclaves, the Necron have Flayed ones (not generally considered a countercharge option, but better melee per point than ogryn). You could give them more WS or Improve the Ripperguns, but really those don't fit the fluff, they're big, bumbling and too hard and stupid to die.

No, they really, really don't. Does ogryn look as tough as a carnifex? Or a hive tyrant? Or a Trygon? Because they all have t6. The equivalent sized models with ogyrns, like warriors, still make do with T4, whilst only their leader the warrior prime; has t5. They are not remotely borderline monstrous creatures, they are space ogres, just really big dumb humans. If this were fantasy you'd be saying an ogre should have the same T as a giant! Wraithlords and the Talos are different becuase they are mechanical, same goes for dreadnoughts. Compared to organic MC ogryns aren't remotely comparable.

I agree with you on the conclaves, but as a Tau player Kroot are crap since they have no armour and low I. They die in droves to anything that would actually be charging Tau lines. Also the guard have FAR more firepower than a SOB army, both in terms or range, access to multiple barrage weapons, plasma guns, heavy tanks and so guard are not in need a 'counter assault' unit. Guard already have rough riders anyway, whats wrong with them? They're your CA unit for killing marines whilst ogryns are for holding non-existent blobs of light infantry.

Totalwar1402 wrote:
No, they really, really don't. Does ogryn look as tough as a carnifex? Or a hive tyrant? Or a Trygon? Because they all have t6. The equivalent sized models with ogyrns, like warriors, still make do with T4, whilst only their leader the warrior prime; has t5. They are not remotely borderline monstrous creatures, they are space ogres, just really big dumb humans. If this were fantasy you'd be saying an ogre should have the same T as a giant! Wraithlords and the Talos are different becuase they are mechanical, same goes for dreadnoughts. Compared to organic MC ogryns aren't remotely comparable.

I agree with you on the conclaves, but as a Tau player Kroot are crap since they have no armour and low I. They die in droves to anything that would actually be charging Tau lines. Also the guard have FAR more firepower than a SOB army, both in terms or range, access to multiple barrage weapons, plasma guns, heavy tanks and so guard are not in need a 'counter assault' unit. Guard already have rough riders anyway, whats wrong with them? They're your CA unit for killing marines whilst ogryns are for holding non-existent blobs of light infantry.

How would you boost ogryn then? You can't boost S or T any more, it would be un-ogryn to have high initiative. Maybe a point higher weapon skill but that's it.
I suppose they're fine as they are with a point reduction.

Joey wrote:How would you boost ogryn then? You can't boost S or T any more, it would be un-ogryn to have high initiative. Maybe a point higher weapon skill but that's it.
I suppose they're fine as they are with a point reduction.

Give them Relentless and options for heavy weapons (Heavy Bolter/Flamer, Missile Launcher, Assault Cannon). And give them Carapace Armour too.

Give them a couple more wounds, lol.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Yeah price in money cost and pts is definetly the reason they are absent most guard armies.

Make ogryns 30pts a model, put them with an ind commisar and you get a brick on the table that can hold most cc units in place and could certainly beat the likes of eldar wyches. Their role is really just to hold off an enemy assault not actually defeat it.

Rough riders should probably have two attacks basic (either by letting them gain the bonus of two cc weapons for the lance or to represent the steed fighting in CC). A 105pts squad on the charge would then be putting out 30+ attacks at str5 I5. Average WS would be a problem. You could argue they'd be better trained at it, but equal to a commisar? You could perhaps allow them to take a 2pts upgrade to carapace armour to represent some kind of curiasar or even let them upgrade to xenos mounts for extra T and str (not affecting the lance).So, +4pts for str and t4? It would be a good way of adding extra options for theming your army, which since they removed doctrines seems to be how they reflect differences in regiments now. If you want a catachan jungle fighter army take veterans and give them forward sentries etc. Its a fairly neat system actually and I can't conceive of them returning to doctrines.