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+Doctrines reimplimented

+Heavy Weapon Squads need survivability (Something akin to a special rule 'Emplacement': Where the Heavy Team makes their own makeshift emplacement and increases their toughness to 4 or gives them a +1 Cover Save) and reduce their points by 10-15.

+Conscripts need to have a Commissar upgrade and special Weapons

+Special Weapon Squads need grenades

+Move the Vendetta to Heavy Support

+Either reduce the blind spot for Artillery Ordnance Barrage or give Infantry Squads wargear to upgrade a Guardsman to a Spotter.

+Introduce more practical Advisors

+Drop the Tech-Preist

+Introduce support/repair vehicles as a squadron upgrade for squadroned tanks and artillery

+Introduce more Special Characters

+Drop the Leman Russ Eradicator and Punisher

+Increase the Vanquisher to BS4 and AP1. Reset the cost to fit with the standard Leman Russ Tank.

+Drop the Death Strike. Apocalypse only.

+Decrease Ogryns Points Cost

+Decrease the Storm Troopers cost back to 10 points a model. Replace 'Hotshot lasgun' with 'Hellgun'.

+Drop the 'One use only' rule for the Hunting Lance for Rough Riders.

+Sentinels/Armored Sentinels should have a 10 points drop and come with searchlights standard.

+Increase the cost of Veterans to 10 points a model so they're equal to Storm Troopers before wargear and transports.

+Introduce a Mine Layer Tank or Tactical Engineer Advisor that generates (x) amount of minefields per game.

+Rework Vox Casters back to their function in 4th ed; If the Infantry Unit and Command Unit have Vox Casters, they should be able to issue orders to them regardless of range.

+Heavy Weapons Squads need a vox, represented as its own model (like a familiar) and gives them +1 Leadership. Have it as wargear for the entire squad for 15 Points.

Ridealgh wrote:Has anyone noticed how manticores have a suckish AP for what they are? They're S10 for goodness sake! AP4 is not enough imo.

Also i would increase the amount of conscripts squads allowed in an infantry platoon

It's odd and definitely feels weird, but they're a highly effective anti-tank weapon and are great at engaging horde infantry, and still aren't by any means bad at engaging 3+sv troops (wound on 2's, hitting up to 3 pieplates, not bad) For their cost, they're solid units and don't really need to be made any better, they're already complained about enough

How bout adding a Ratline Character??

Vaktathi wrote:

Ridealgh wrote:Has anyone noticed how manticores have a suckish AP for what they are? They're S10 for goodness sake! AP4 is not enough imo.

Also i would increase the amount of conscripts squads allowed in an infantry platoon

It's odd and definitely feels weird, but they're a highly effective anti-tank weapon and are great at engaging horde infantry, and still aren't by any means bad at engaging 3+sv troops (wound on 2's, hitting up to 3 pieplates, not bad) For their cost, they're solid units and don't really need to be made any better, they're already complained about enough

Well no. Compare to Leman Russ-
1d3 plates vs 1 manticore win
S9 vs S10 very rare that 1 point in strength is important
AP3 vs AP4 this is the killer. A Leman Russ Battle Tank can kill 5 marines per turn, The manticore would on average only kill a third as many. So you'd need ALL THREE plates to draw parity with the leman russ
AV12/10/10 vs AV 14/13/10 Leman Russes are good at surviving. They can shrug off a volley from lascannon demolishers. Manticores...won't. They'll die, quickly.
Extra weapons- Leman Russ (165 points) comes with a lascannon. 'nuff said.
So yeah, Manticores need buffs. AP3 would be too powerful though, so maybe D4 blast templates?


And I completely agree with what someone said about Heavy Weapons Team having some kind of dug-in modifier. +2 toughness sounds suitible (still wounded by bolters on 5+).

A single manticore volly can vaporise a full ork mob.

it is not underpowered

Against Mobs it is over-powered, against MEQ it is about right, maybe 10 points too expensive.

Vaktathi wrote:Honestly?

Expanded fluff section, lets get some pics of something other than cadians and catachans.

Heavy Mortars and Quad Launcher Thudd Guns in the list.

Stormtroopers become the following

WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8(9sergeant) Sv4+
Hellgun (S3 Ap5 Assault 3 18")
Laspistol
CCW
Infiltrate
Deep Strike
Scout

70pts for 5, 12pts for each additional Stormtrooper (130 for 10). Include some way to make them Troops via a character or HQ upgrade

Heavy Weapons Squads get Eternal Warrior (entirely too easy to destroy these units as is and it doesn't make sense that ID would apply given that it's 2 dudes not 1 tough dude) and drop costs by 15pts.

Make Valkyries dedicated transports, at least for Vets and Stormtroopers

Make Veterans a Platoon upgrade (e.g. Upgrade Infantry Squad to Veterans for +20pts)

Make Vanquisher BS4 with coax-stubber rule and Ap1

Drop 30pts off the Punisher

Move Vendetta to Heavy Support and remove Squadron option, it really doesn't belong in FA and it would solve a lot of complaints.

Drop Hellhound/Bane Wolf/Devil Dog cost by 20pts. Come with Smoke base.

Drop sentinel/armored sentinel costs by 10pts and most weapons options by 5pts each.

Dump Deathstrike, make apocalypse only.

Make vox's allow orders at any range, not rerolls within 6/12".

Include grenades with Special Weapon squads

redo chimera fire points, 2 of any weapon +3 lasguns, not 5 of anything.

There's got to be a better way to fix heavy weapons squads then eternal warrior. It would be silly if a demo cannon or lance strike hit them dead on and only killed one guy...

To the manticore guy, manticores don't need a buff. They are friggen awesome already, the last thing they need to do is get ap 3 and give the colossus a big middle finger.

Deadshot- unlimited is probably a bit silly. People barely take them as is, i don't see anyone going "Darn, i've gotten 50 conscripts in every troops slot, sure wish i could have some more..."

So you honestly don't want to see a unit of 500 Conscripts hoofing it across board?

Deadshot wrote:So you honestly don't want to see a unit of 500 Conscripts hoofing it across board?

No. It'd be boring, tedious, and likely ineffective at everything.

Manticore is perfect as is, though I'd never complain about AP3 or even lower.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Manticore packs more anti-tank Imo, and you dont need LOS, AND it can pin. A battle tank, although EXTREAMLY powerful/durable as is(and lc upgrade) can not hit out of sight and cannot pin. Its lower helps makes pen'ing a tank more challenging. In no way at all am i saying the basic LRBT is bad. I am a large fan. Im just saying, the manticore has its perks------ depending how you play your gaurd, and your thrill of abusing pie plates.

Deadshot wrote:So you honestly don't want to see a unit of 500 Conscripts hoofing it across board?

I would shoot someone under the table if they brought a single unit of 500 models to a game.... We would get about 2 turns done before the next round started. Of course, they are only ld. 6, so you could just tank shock 500 guys off the board with a single rhino...

SOmething similar happened today, did a custom game, outflanks conscrips, thy faild leadership after getting shot..all died. ran off the board. Made me want to run off the board.

Biggest dick move ever: Outflank a full platoon with alharem, and place them so that they cover the entire board edge. Any outflankers that come in on that side cannot be placed, and immediatly die. Sorta like the gaurd equiv. of the famous kroot/whitescars first-turn-win.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

loota boy wrote:Biggest dick move ever: Outflank a full platoon with alharem, and place them so that they cover the entire board edge. Any outflankers that come in on that side cannot be placed, and immediatly die. Sorta like the gaurd equiv. of the famous kroot/whitescars first-turn-win.

1) You'd have to come in on a turn before their Outflankers
2) You'd only catch 1/3rd of their Outflankers
3) You're spending at bare minimum 330 points to do this, 530 if "full platoon" means Conscripts as well.
4) Why bother playing to rule loopholes? Just play, be smart, and have fun. So much the better if you win in the process.

Don't lecture me. How many times do you see the kroot-whitescar auto-win happen? Not much, but that doesn't make it any less hilarious. Same thing here. It's just for gaks and giggles.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

loota boy wrote:Biggest dick move ever: Outflank a full platoon with alharem, and place them so that they cover the entire board edge. Any outflankers that come in on that side cannot be placed, and immediatly die. Sorta like the gaurd equiv. of the famous kroot/whitescars first-turn-win.

1) You'd have to come in on a turn before their Outflankers
2) You'd only catch 1/3rd of their Outflankers
3) You're spending at bare minimum 330 points to do this, 530 if "full platoon" means Conscripts as well.
4) Why bother playing to rule loopholes? Just play, be smart, and have fun. So much the better if you win in the process.

Don't lecture me. How many times do you see the kroot-whitescar auto-win happen? Not much, but that doesn't make it any less hilarious. Same thing here. It's just for gaks and giggles.

When what you point out is woefully ineffective, and we're suggesting ways to make the next Imperial Guard codex "better", a lecture is in order.
It's called threadjacking.

I never claimed that it was an effective strategy, and what i did was not in anyway threadjacking. I threw out a funny thing that you could do with a big blob of gaurdsman, which we were discussing. That by itself isn't threadjacking. It's just a slightly off-topic post, and it's no big deal. If you really think its threadjacking, then you ought to know that the best way to stop a threadjack is to ignore the post and let people forget about it.

if you can add priests as squad upgrade, you shouldn't be able to also add a commisar.

you should be able to add commisars to vets squads and penal legions.

I also think that lemun russ varients should be able to take auto-cannon sponsons as well as a hull ac. maybe for a 10 points boost over hb and hf.

pages 55-62 of the 4th ed codex put into the 5th ed codex with minor alterations to update to the new pts cost

The ability to take an additional special weapon if you eschew the heavy weapon.

Armless Failure wrote:The ability to take an additional special weapon if you eschew the heavy weapon.

I've never given a BS3 model in my army list a special weapon...is it worth it?

Joey wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:The ability to take an additional special weapon if you eschew the heavy weapon.

I've never given a BS3 model in my army list a special weapon...is it worth it?

I don't know if you're being serious.

Flamers are great on BS3 models. Bringing enough meltaguns will still mean some kind of damage will be inflicted.

Every special weapon slot in every guard list I've ever made has a special weapon, normally flamers and meltaguns (plasma and melta on vets).

Totally worth it.

Che-Vito wrote:

Stormtroopers: I'd keep their current cost. Comparing them point for point to a Tactical Marine, what I present below I think is a pretty good representation.
They're both skilled in close combat as well as with ranged weapons, but the Stormtroopers cannot match the speed or strength of an Astartes. Their armor is not anywhere near as good, but their morale is higher than standard frontline Guardsmen. The Stormtroopers are Elites, because they are there to clear an objective...normal Guardsmen are there to hold it. They both have a variety of deployment options, which is the only thing that may require adding perhaps a point to the cost of Stormtroopers.

I believe the bump in close-combat is a big one. Stormtroopers should be able to outfight other Guardsmen pretty handily, and the addition of another attach as well as hitting on 3's, makes all the difference.

Give them the following statline:

WS(4) BS(4) S(3) T(3) W(1) I(3) A(1) Ld.(8) Sv.(4+)
Equipment: Hot Shot Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Hot Shot Lasgun

Special Rules: (fine as they are really.)

Hot-Shot Lasgun
(Burst Fire) S3 Ap3 24" Rapid Fire
(Charged Shot) S4 Ap3 18" Assault 1

Hot-Shot Laspistol
(same profile as it is currently, and nobody will use it because of the "charged shot" above. It's just there for the extra attack in close combat)

they still wouldn't be worth 16pts there, that AP3 is just too overvalued in a game where cover saves and FNP are ubiquitous and increasingly common invul saves and many opponents have saves that AP5 would work just as well against, especially when relying primarily on S*3* shots (against most opponents who are T4) and at S3 T3 I3 A1 (even with pistol/CCW) they just don't have the statline to engage anything in the 15/16pt range in CC with any degree of success, even most 10-14pt models.

Joey wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Ridealgh wrote:Has anyone noticed how manticores have a suckish AP for what they are? They're S10 for goodness sake! AP4 is not enough imo.

Also i would increase the amount of conscripts squads allowed in an infantry platoon

It's odd and definitely feels weird, but they're a highly effective anti-tank weapon and are great at engaging horde infantry, and still aren't by any means bad at engaging 3+sv troops (wound on 2's, hitting up to 3 pieplates, not bad) For their cost, they're solid units and don't really need to be made any better, they're already complained about enough

Well no. Compare to Leman Russ-
1d3 plates vs 1 manticore win
S9 vs S10 very rare that 1 point in strength is important
AP3 vs AP4 this is the killer. A Leman Russ Battle Tank can kill 5 marines per turn, The manticore would on average only kill a third as many. So you'd need ALL THREE plates to draw parity with the leman russ
AV12/10/10 vs AV 14/13/10 Leman Russes are good at surviving. They can shrug off a volley from lascannon demolishers. Manticores...won't. They'll die, quickly.
Extra weapons- Leman Russ (165 points) comes with a lascannon. 'nuff said.
So yeah, Manticores need buffs. AP3 would be too powerful though, so maybe D4 blast templates?

For what they cost and what they offer, they're already probably the most devastating turn 1 alpha strike weapon in the game, especially in an Anti-Tank capacity, with more complaints than just about anything but the Vendetta.

Also, LRBT Battlecannons are S8, not 10.

The AP3 only matters against 3+sv opponents. Against -/6+/5+/4+/2+ opponents, they don't care. Granted, 3+sv opponents are a big deal, but it's not a killer, and with cover being as ubiquitous as it is, that AP3 isn't what one thinks it is (It's a rare day when my BC's get shots off without cover saves being granted).

The Manticore doesn't need LoS, and thus can hide without needing to expose its AV12.


LRBT's are for killing Space Marines and acting as meatshields, Manticores are anti-tank/anti-horde units.

loota boy wrote:
There's got to be a better way to fix heavy weapons squads then eternal warrior. It would be silly if a demo cannon or lance strike hit them dead on and only killed one guy...

There is, and that's making them six model units again instead of 3 W2 models, but GW saw fit to design the models to be put on one large base instead for visual effect and thought they should be played as such. If they want to remain that way, EW is the only thing that really makes sense and prevents them from continually plinked by multishot S6+ weapons that inflict ID and can force Ld7 morale checks with a single successful wound.

Or just make Heavy Weapon Teams Toughness 4...

Sergeants could take lasguns.
Heavy weapons squads (or the old heavy weapon platoon) as heavy support.
Doctrines (I want my catachan to feel like catachan in game).

Maybe if we add in a SR for HW teams, of all kinds, that they can only be ID be a blast or template.

SR= storm raven? now im confused. I think gw should make and elysion and DKOK codex. kinda like BA, GK, SM, BT...why not do it for ig too?

SR=Special Rule.

Vets as elites.
S4 AP3 hellguns.
Doctrines, added a lot of flavor, I'd like to see them come back. With IG bits sprues for doctrines(chem inhalers, cybernatics, camo cloaks,and so on.)
Vehicle Squadron rules that make sense.

Heavy weapon teams, T3 W1, A2 with the "loader" special rule.
Loader: Inaddition to firing the heavy weapon, each base may also fire a lasgun. If a weapon team takes an unsaved wound, remove it and replace it with a guardsmen with lasgun.
In effect, the 1 wound on a unit kills the heavy weapon, and replaced the 2 models on 1 base with just 1 model. The 2nd wound would remove the loader.
It would let you use the current models with the feel of 2 models.

-Matt