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In Daemons and Last Codex it is Khorne/Slaanesh and Nurgle/Tzneetch.

This is also related to the legions. Emperors Children and World Eaters have hatred for each other that has often seen them do battle (Kharn's story about why he is the betrayer).

Just give me back my Iron Warriors.....

You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Blitza da warboy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.

warboss wrote: While the whole necron alliance with the Blood Angels was not in line with the 3rd edition fluff of a dozen years ago, it certainly is now that necrons have individual dynasties with separate motives/goals. While I agree that some of his ideas are quite Mary-Sue-ish and over the top, he doesn't deserve the bile constantly being spewed at him. People, he wrote some very short stories about toy soldiers that you didn't like but was prophetically consistent with the evolving fluff... he didn't molest your dog with a baseball bat.

Do you know my dog. No i didnt think so. Its quite possible that he molested my dog and you dont know. Did you ever think of that?
and besides, judging from the fluff he writes i would have to say that i wouldnt put it past him since the fluff he wrote for the crons amounts to a big pile of dog poop if you ask me (which you didnt, but there it is) harumph.

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Are you joking me? Nearly everything that was iconic for the Iron Warriors aside from Obliterators and the option to take Vindicators has been removed, and those two options have been genericized. Space Wolves, on the other hand, got a new Codex with all kinds of unique and special options. Overall, it's fair to say that Space Wolves got their army substantially improved, with new fluff, new models, and new options, while Iron Warriors were deemphasized in the fluff, didn't get new models, and overall lost options.

I think you are safe to say that the new SW codex is more than improved. Its OP in the opinons of many.

For Iron Warriors, give us Warsmith Honsou as a named character! Why? Well, it'll make Ward cry since Honsou not only fustigated the realm of Ultramar, but he escaped with his life to boot!

Either that or else just add a generic 'warsmith' as an HQ that functions a bit like a master of the forge? Options like a servo arm, conversion beamer or other wacky techno-device, ability to bolster a piece of terrain... IW's don't need to get a basilisk back, but at least give them their iconic character?!

sennacherib wrote:I think you are safe to say that the new SW codex is more than improved. Its OP in the opinons of many.

It is improved over the previous one simply because that one was 2 editions old but it's actually probably less powerful for its edition than the previous one. When the 3rd edition codex came out, it was incredibly overpowered compared to other stuff out at the time (and only got the title taken away when the chaos marine 3rd edition redo came out). Space wolves back then had hidden powerfists (during the days when every sergeant could be singled out like an IC can now whereas their special weapons weren't on characters)... to add insult to injury, the same gear that was more effective was almost half the price others paid for the same thing with less utility. In addition, the whole army had counterattack in the days when moving 6" to get into base to base when someone charged YOU didn't exist as a general rule. The current issue of cheap long fangs and grey hunters is nothing compared to those days. They were basically on par with other marines in 4th edition and now are in the top two again for 5th. Someone in GW HQ has a serious love for the sons of russ...

TalonZahn wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so cute look at me mock Ward's writing..." its just trite.

Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so smart look at me trying to be pedantic..." is just trite.

Not as trite as "Hurr Durr Mock Matt Ward Hurrrr!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:

sennacherib wrote:I think you are safe to say that the new SW codex is more than improved. Its OP in the opinons of many.

It is improved over the previous one simply because that one was 2 editions old but it's actually probably less powerful for its edition than the previous one. When the 3rd edition codex came out, it was incredibly overpowered compared to other stuff out at the time (and only got the title taken away when the chaos marine 3rd edition redo came out). Space wolves back then had hidden powerfists (during the days when every sergeant could be singled out like an IC can now whereas their special weapons weren't on characters)... to add insult to injury, the same gear that was more effective was almost half the price others paid for the same thing with less utility. In addition, the whole army had counterattack in the days when moving 6" to get into base to base when someone charged YOU didn't exist as a general rule. The current issue of cheap long fangs and grey hunters is nothing compared to those days. They were basically on par with other marines in 4th edition and now are in the top two again for 5th. Someone in GW HQ has a serious love for the sons of russ...

His name is "Big" Tom Kirby.

When I read through this thread I can hear the champions from Dawn of War when regaining morale: "We're back and better than ever!"

Fetterkey wrote:
Are you joking me? Nearly everything that was iconic for the Iron Warriors aside from Obliterators and the option to take Vindicators has been removed, and those two options have been genericized. Space Wolves, on the other hand, got a new Codex with all kinds of unique and special options. Overall, it's fair to say that Space Wolves got their army substantially improved, with new fluff, new models, and new options, while Iron Warriors were deemphasized in the fluff, didn't get new models, and overall lost options.

What else was iconic for Iron Warriors in the old codex? Basilisks and Warsmiths? They had less emphasis compared to last time, but the last codex author was an admitted Iron Warriors fanboy. I'd love to see Warsmiths have rules again (I just run mine as a lord with lightning claws) but I don't want to see Basilisks come back. It made no sense. Also, Space Wolves are an entire Codex. Iron Warriors were just a few options in the CSM dex. I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing my Iron Warriors significantly more than my Space Wolves.

warboss wrote:

Blitza da warboy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.

What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.

Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.

How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.

Crayola wrote:
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.

Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.

How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.

What's absurd and irrational is using the Space Wolves as some sort of justification for IW absolutely needing something similar (which is what I was responding to). You can do everything Iron Warrior-ish that you did before EXCEPT taking a basilisk and/or a 4th heavy. Other than that, you can use your army as is in tournaments and no one is stopping you except YOU. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that legions should get a page or two of special rules each (like chapters get via IC's)... I just don't think it deserves the level of whining that it currently gets. It's not like Chaos got squatted or the legions lost individual codices.

Brother SRM wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:
I'd love to see Warsmiths have rules again (I just run mine as a lord with lightning claws) but I don't want to see Basilisks come back. It made no sense. Also, Space Wolves are an entire Codex. Iron Warriors were just a few options in the CSM dex. I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing my Iron Warriors significantly more than my Space Wolves.

Why no Basilisks? I assume you dont know the history of IW then?

warboss wrote:

Crayola wrote:
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.

Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.

How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.

What's absurd and irrational is using the Space Wolves as some sort of justification for IW absolutely needing something similar (which is what I was responding to). You can do everything Iron Warrior-ish that you did before EXCEPT taking a basilisk and/or a 4th heavy. Other than that, you can use your army as is in tournaments and no one is stopping you except YOU. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that legions should get a page or two of special rules each (like chapters get via IC's)... I just don't think it deserves the level of whining that it currently gets. It's not like Chaos got squatted or the legions lost individual codices.

That fourth heavy is what dictates Iron Warriors. It's what dictates a SIEGE army. There are no fast attacks, no elites that resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors.

Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.

I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.

It does deserve the level of whining it has gotten, and justifiably so-it is THE antithesis of the Space Marines, their polar opposite. Hell, 4th edition CSM don't even have the same luxuries as 4th edition SM (or even equivalent). The Iron Warriors are the pre-eminent definition of siege warriors yet there is NOTHING in the CSM codex that can even closely resemble this type of warfare.

SM, Grey Knights (let's face it, they're SM), DA, SW and BA yet there is ONE, count it-ONE CSM codex, yet not one traitor legion has received a codex.

Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?

For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?

Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.

Crayola wrote:

warboss wrote:

Blitza da warboy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You never lost your Iron Warriors.

You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.

Space Wolves lost that too.

Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!

Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.

What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.

Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.

How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.

Iron Warriors aren't a real chapter. There someone had to say it. There a bunch of genetic meglomaniacs that were giant suits of armor, steal vehicles, and kick down the emperors sand castles.

fire4effekt wrote:Iron Warriors aren't a real chapter. There someone had to say it. There a bunch of genetic meglomaniacs that were giant suits of armor, steal vehicles, and kick down the emperors sand castles.

Now things get interesting.

Crayola wrote:Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.

I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.

I think you mean HBMC's hilarious review of what claims to be a Chaos Codex.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/181809.page

At this point I'm so desperate for something not bland that I don't care who writes it. See what you have done to me GW, lowering my standards and expectations!

schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?

For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?

Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.

Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.

Crayola wrote:

That fourth heavy is what dictates Iron Warriors. It's what dictates a SIEGE army. There are no fast attacks, no elites that resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors.

Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.

I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.

You apparently have no idea what the slang term of "squatted" means... it means that the figs used for majority of the army you play can no longer be used WYSIWIG at all. If GW had gotten rid of chaos marines completely THEN your Iron Warriors would have been squatted. You simply got hit hard with the bland nerf bat which is no where near the same thing. There is a big difference as you CAN still play your chaos marines (albeit in a more vanilla form) and choose not to whereas squat players must resort to "counts as" and opponent's permission to simply use their figs. The closest chaos comes to the correct definition of this is the Latd armies that have to be seriously squinted at to be played as IG.

As for the siege army, you still have multiple ordnance choices to select for your three heavies. Iron Warriors lost a single heavy support option and a 1/4 of the heavy slots.. that's it. Were there any previous fast attacks or elites that "resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors"? If so, what were they? If not, then you didn't actually lose anything there; you simply didn't gain anything. I'm not trying to hold the current chaos codex up on some pedastal but it simply isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. It's just popular to rip on it as well as Matt Ward. Also, if you're really coming back from early 3rd edition then this codex is a huge improvement over the chaos one that you're used to (the super thin no-fluff even blander initial 3rd edition chaos codex). That codex didn't even have Iron Warriors in it either so you're not losing anything... unless you mean the codex that you didn't actually use that came out in between that was, incidentally, the 2nd most broken thing to come out that edition. Compared to that abomination, the current codex did lose alot (a bit too much unfortunately but that pendulum swung hard).

Worglock wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?

For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?

Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.

Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.

Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Worglock wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?

For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?

Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.

Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.

Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.

Didn't you know that Chaos are more metal and therefore should be better than anything else bar nothing?

ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan

This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.

Still, you need the tools to do the job. CSM weren't popular with competitive players just because they like the fluff.

Manchu wrote:Still, you need the tools to do the job. CSM weren't popular with competitive players just because they like the fluff.

Well, that's a given considering how bad it was in the new book.

Some new plastic Oblits that aren't just blobs of incoherent flesh would be nice...

I hope they don't continue going down the more silly cartoony look for their modelling art direction. I really didn't like all the new Daemons and the plastic DP. The older metal Horrors look so much more sinister than the silly beaked gawking rabble we have now.

candy.man wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan

This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.

Clearly it had nothing to do with the codexes access to cheap and highly resilient scoring units, low cost high output monstrous creatures, or resilient multi use long range units. It was all due to how 'popular' the codex is. Nope, khorne berserkers and plague marines were never the best troop choices in the game. Obliterators were never the best heavy support, demon princes were never the best HQ, you never had the ability to make cheap I5 LC terrm squads or field low cost battlecanons attached to fleeting 5 attack dreadnaughts. You weren't the first one to get cheap rhinos, you weren't the first one to get a low cost deep striking melta unit, you werent the first one to get powerful and game changing psychic powers.

Clearly the lack of cultists made the book gak.