Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Void__Dragon wrote:"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

Well, I haven't read the novels concerning him, so I can't speak for that. Even still, I don't recall hearing that they call his loyalty and valour into question.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus). Curze tore pieces out of Dorn, but that was likely an unexpected event (for both), so it doesn't really count. Russ is considered a close combat fighter, but was drawing with Lion prior to Russ stopping fighting, and that would mean that Curze is also a skilled combatant for doing well against the Lion. I don't recall hearing that Magnus was a particularly impressive fighter, but he managed to fare well against Russ. Different fighting styles may do better against other ones - Russ might do better against Curze in his brawl-style fighting than the Lion did but not be so dominant in combat-style the Lion initially engaged in.

So I definately agree with what he's saying to an extent. The mindset and circumstances of the Primarchs could easily change the outcome. In a straight up fight, it may favour one Primarch most of the time (against certain opponents, at least) but not all the time. Angron, in terms of mindset, might have a bit of an advantage over most of the others because he seems like he'd be the quickest to overcome an hesitancy of fighting one of his brothers. Possibly Curze as well.

Sure, some will be more skilled in a certain form of fighting and overall hold an advantage in a certain engagement. In all of them? I don't think so. Tiers I certainly disagree with the concept with, since it implies that those at the top with always dominate in any given fighting area and situation. Curze can see in the dark. Can the other Primarchs? (Genuine question.)

For the record, I didn't find your post strongly worded.

It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

What Magnus Most Powerful Psyker (agreed) or the most powerful Primarch (don't know)? I know Horus went up against the Big E, but did he ever go "toe to toe" with one of his brothers. His power was amplified by the 4 Powers combined, yet before this was he a good at Close Combat one vs one.

He was a master strategist, a skilled tactician, a Master politican and Diplomat, above all a great leader. Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

In Duelling category (assuming Ferus is dead) it would have to be the Lion, he would have fought Fulgrim to a standstill.

Soladrin wrote:It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Of Course this is going to be biassed. Everyone is just going to choose the primarch of the chapter they play. FOR THE LION!

Can't honestly believe that people think Horus would win, he's an awesome all rounder sure but he's the jack of trades and master of none

mwnciboo wrote:Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

Apparently in one of the books Corax says (or thinks) that only Horus or maybe Sanguinius could stand against Angron, so that'd suggest that he was also a superb warrior.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

I just meant that the post before mine is open to many variables, but what makes Sanguinius win?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Well, I haven't read the novels concerning him, so I can't speak for that. Even still, I don't recall hearing that they call his loyalty and valour into question.

Loyalty to the Emperor? Yeah sure, he's never shown to be disloyal to the Emperor, per say. But he's also shown to be an underhanded scumbag who has no loyalty or empathy with the people he is allegedly closest too, and at the end of Fallen Angels blatantly demonstrates his ruthless nature (I won't spoil the nature of what actually occurs).

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus).

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

Curze tore pieces out of Dorn, but that was likely an unexpected event (for both), so it doesn't really count.

I should point out that Dorn was also unarmed and unarmoured as well, clad in nothing but robes.

Russ is considered a close combat fighter, but was drawing with Lion prior to Russ stopping fighting, and that would mean that Curze is also a skilled combatant for doing well against the Lion.

Ah, but Russ and the Lion are skilled weapons-fighters, while being equal unarmed (How Russ and the Lion would stack up armed with their swords is harder to say). We can safely conclude though that Curze would be superior to Russ in a weaponless brawl.

I don't recall hearing that Magnus was a particularly impressive fighter, but he managed to fare well against Russ.

Magnus is by far the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs, and was considered a giant in physical and mental terms, and his strength of arms in the Index Astartes articles was explicitly compared to Russ'. And really, as I've said before, Magnus IMO proved decisively more powerful than Russ in their fight. "Flailing blindly" is not something that is going to work every time you do so.

Different fighting styles may do better against other ones - Russ might do better against Curze in his brawl-style fighting than the Lion did but not be so dominant in combat-style the Lion initially engaged in.

I'd actually argue that in a brawl Curze would beat Russ since the Russ was proven roughly equal to the Lion in that regard. With weapons? Harder to determine.

So I definately agree with what he's saying to an extent. The mindset and circumstances of the Primarchs could easily change the outcome. In a straight up fight, it may favour one Primarch most of the time (against certain opponents, at least) but not all the time. Angron, in terms of mindset, might have a bit of an advantage over most of the others because he seems like he'd be the quickest to overcome an hesitancy of fighting one of his brothers. Possibly Curze as well.

To an extent? Sure, the Lion vs. Curze fight showed that two Primarchs can hold the advantage in different areas of combat. But frankly, I do believe Angron, Sanguinius, Magnus, or Horus would beat most Primarchs in actual combat. Curze or Corax might be able to challenge them if they managed to sneak up on them (Though I doubt they can sneak up on Magnus, it seems fundamentally impossible), but I'm hesitant to include that because I'm not sure that's what this thread is asking, which is which of the big supermen could beat up the others in a fight.

Sure, some will be more skilled in a certain form of fighting and overall hold an advantage in a certain engagement. In all of them? I don't think so. Tiers I certainly disagree with the concept with, since it implies that those at the top with always dominate in any given fighting area and situation. Curze can see in the dark. Can the other Primarchs? (Genuine question.)

Can you think of a form of actual combat that Alpharius or Guilliman would hold the advantage against most of their Primarchs? Do note I mean combat, as in one on one, against their brothers? I think tiers can be made, since some Primarchs are shown or considered to be above the others in power. Keep in mind as well, that every Primarch you have named is to some extent focused on combat, as compared to like Guilliman, Alpharius, Lorgar (Pre-Aurelian), or Perturabo.

For the record, I didn't find your post strongly worded.

Pft, better not of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orblivion wrote:Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Context is everything my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mwnciboo wrote:What Magnus Most Powerful Psyker (agreed) or the most powerful Primarch (don't know)? I know Horus went up against the Big E, but did he ever go "toe to toe" with one of his brothers. His power was amplified by the 4 Powers combined, yet before this was he a good at Close Combat one vs one.

He was a master strategist, a skilled tactician, a Master politican and Diplomat, above all a great leader. Has it ever been stated he was superb in Martial Combat, at the level of Russ or Sanguinius? I don't recall in the HH series a statement saying he was master dueller or Combat Master?

In Duelling category (assuming Ferus is dead) it would have to be the Lion, he would have fought Fulgrim to a standstill.

Corax seems to think he is the Primarch with the greatest chance of beating Angron in martial combat.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Well, Ferrus Manus was not stated to be particularly impressive in combat, was he? Yet he was beating Fulgrim prior to the Daemon adding its own strength to Fulgrim, but lost when they fought previously if I recall correctly (when Fulgrim tried to turn Ferrus).

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive thunder hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

In their first fight, it was kind of surprising to everyone except Manus when that sword blew up, so it's not exactly a shock that Fulgrim ended up on his ass after it. Taking a thunder hammer shot to the head means he's pretty much the toughest character in the universe. (Especially considering Fulgrim killed an Avatar with a punch)

Durza wrote:In their first fight, it was kind of surprising to everyone except Manus when that sword blew up, so it's not exactly a shock that Fulgrim ended up on his ass after it. Taking a thunder hammer shot to the head means he's pretty much the toughest character in the universe. (Especially considering Fulgrim killed an Avatar with a punch)

Well yeah, I was trying to emphasize that they are on-par, yet they could not be more different in combat.

Fulgrim crushed its throat actually.

Though, I'm not sure, Vulkan survived being hit by what I'm pretty sure is a Nova Cannon, and Konrad Curze as a baby was sent plummeting through Nostramo's crust and mantle until he was near the core of the planet. He then crawled out.

That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

I would say so as well. The only reason Horus won was that A. Sanguinius was wounded severely from a narrow victory against one of the most powerful bloodthirsters and B. Horus was massively inflated with power from the warp.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

Some things are so good, you've just got to put them in your Signature..

Horus beats everybody.
Otherwise Angron or Sanguinus.

Void__Dragon wrote:That said, a Thunder Hammer (A really good one, mind you) being wielded by a Primarch would be bad news indeed.

A good one...like the Forge breaker or the Fist of Dorn?

I had to say Sanguinus, as not only is he described as a combat monster, but he was slightly psychic, and could naturally fly.

How about its a draw?

Most won't accept a draw.

hmmm, why not Lion and Russ fought to a Draw? A few of the combats in the HH result in a Draw or at least Combatants disengaging and fleeing.

Corax vs Lorgar on Istvaan V (Curze jumps in Corax flys off).

Russ vs Lion

Russ vs Magnus on Prospero

Vulkan & Corax escaping from the Traito Legions on Istvaan V

Fulgrim vs Ferus (1st time round)

A draw is good for Fluff as it does not write a character out of the story, plus it is a vehicle to push the story in new directions. I don't understand why Dakkanauts wouldn't accept this, there are plenty of Draws in the Canon.

Orblivion wrote:

Soladrin wrote:It's already been stated in Aurelian that Magnus is the most powerfull, so can we stop making these topics?

Well, despite that claim there is only one instance we know of in which Magnus fights another primarch and he lost that fight, so there is that. There is no way to make a blanket claim that any one of them will win but it is still a discussion that a large portion of this community wants to discuss, so I don't see the harm in it.

Which he lost because: A. he was distracted and B. Was surrounded by sisters of silence.

And this topic keeps popping up every other week.

If Magnus wanted to kill Russ he wouldn't have stood a chance.

Curze is a bit of a brawler, almost kills The Lion... until he gets a sword through his spine....

I think we can all agree that Lorgar wouldn't be the victor in this situation...

Angron would likely win a straight-up fight, because he is really (x2) angry.

To the OP: Horus was supposed to be the best. "The brightest star" and all that.

Where does this "Primarchs represent a single part of the Emperor" thing come from? Never seen it in any official stuff, but it keeps sprouting.
I mean: both The Lion and Horus were ambitious. All primarch were incredibly skilled tacticians.

Tadashi wrote:Just like the Aspects of Khaine, then.
...
Khan = mustache?
...

da001 wrote:To the OP: Horus was supposed to be the best. "The brightest star" and all that.

Where does this "Primarchs represent a single part of the Emperor" thing come from? Never seen it in any official stuff, but it keeps sprouting.

In The First Heretic a couple of Logar's trusted confidants used that rhetoric to manipulate him away from the emperor.

VTRC

Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

Russ Mandarin wrote:Russ was the only primarch to ever beat Horus in a duel but I wouldn't then go on to say that Russ could beat every primarch.
Obviously Magnus wasn't a match for him but if he went up against guys like Sanguinius then there would be problems

Source for the first one, because that sounds like bs.

Oh, and go and read A Thousand Sons, Russ had A LOT of help, and then only won due to luck.

Russ beat Horus? Don't remember ever seeing anything like that before...

Void__Dragon wrote:
Loyalty to the Emperor? Yeah sure, he's never shown to be disloyal to the Emperor, per say. But he's also shown to be an underhanded scumbag who has no loyalty or empathy with the people he is allegedly closest too, and at the end of Fallen Angels blatantly demonstrates his ruthless nature (I won't spoil the nature of what actually occurs).

Which isn't necessarily lost in 'Savage Weapons'. He even gives a self-admitted "dishonourable blow".

Fulgrim and Ferrus are opposites in combat. Fulgrim is refined skill and agility. Ferrus Manus is raw physical strength and endurance (He is said to be rivaled only by Vulkan in terms of physical strength among the Primarchs). The first time they fought, yes, Manus did lose, after destroying Fulgrim's sword, and knocking him on his ass, with Fulgrim being quicker to recover. In the second fight, he was winning, yes, but only due to his raw endurance, taking a massive hammer to the temple without suffering from a bad case of deadness.

And against other Primarchs, one style might prove more advantageous than the others. How would Curze fare against Ferrus? Possibly not so well as against Fulgrim due to Ferrus' superior strength and metal hands.

I should point out that Dorn was also unarmed and unarmoured as well, clad in nothing but robes.

Curze presumably was as well, but yeah, that occasion doesn't help us in terms of Primarch combat (aside from between Curze and Dorn, since Dorn had lasting trauma from the incident).

Ah, but Russ and the Lion are skilled weapons-fighters, while being equal unarmed (How Russ and the Lion would stack up armed with their swords is harder to say). We can safely conclude though that Curze would be superior to Russ in a weaponless brawl.

Ah, forgot about the unarmed combat. I don't necessarily think Curze would be superior in a weaponless brawl.

Magnus is by far the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs, and was considered a giant in physical and mental terms, and his strength of arms in the Index Astartes articles was explicitly compared to Russ'. And really, as I've said before, Magnus IMO proved decisively more powerful than Russ in their fight. "Flailing blindly" is not something that is going to work every time you do so.

Didn't know about the martial aspect of his character. Regardless, it does give precedent for Primarchs having physical weaknesses that can be exploited, as well as a chance of any underdog to come back.

I'd actually argue that in a brawl Curze would beat Russ since the Russ was proven roughly equal to the Lion in that regard. With weapons? Harder to determine.

Well, against the Lion he did still have his lightning claws if I recall correctly, and had the advantage of being on top (if the Lion had tackled Curze for whatever reason, the outcome would likely have been different). That said, the weapons would themselves have a large impact on how the battle went (Curze's claws are not conducive to a duel like he and the Lion initiated with).

To an extent? Sure, the Lion vs. Curze fight showed that two Primarchs can hold the advantage in different areas of combat. But frankly, I do believe Angron, Sanguinius, Magnus, or Horus would beat most Primarchs in actual combat. Curze or Corax might be able to challenge them if they managed to sneak up on them (Though I doubt they can sneak up on Magnus, it seems fundamentally impossible), but I'm hesitant to include that because I'm not sure that's what this thread is asking, which is which of the big supermen could beat up the others in a fight.

Especially the case when different Primarchs favour different weapons. Lightning claws would not be great at the length a sword is, or vice versa. Those Primarchs may have an advantage in a duel style combat, but this thread does dictate a sector of a Hive City as an arena - suggesting it's not just a duel that has to be settled in one fight. In smaller quarters, I'd actually argue that the lightning claws of Corax and Curze would probably be an advantage where they use the length of a sword or axe against their opponent (although Magnus does always have an advantage over the others with his Psychic powers, but not enough to guarantee victory in my opinion).

Can you think of a form of actual combat that Alpharius or Guilliman would hold the advantage against most of their Primarchs? Do note I mean combat, as in one on one, against their brothers? I think tiers can be made, since some Primarchs are shown or considered to be above the others in power. Keep in mind as well, that every Primarch you have named is to some extent focused on combat, as compared to like Guilliman, Alpharius, Lorgar (Pre-Aurelian), or Perturabo.

Have we ever seen them fight? I haven't read anything saying that they were conisderably worse in combat. It would also depend on whether or not Omegon is included, but even if not, when they first met Alpharius seemed to hold the advantage against Horus (admittedly Horus didn't know he was facing another Primarch, but Alpharius certainly seemed to surprise him with his speed). Pre-Aurelian Lorgar would be at a disadvantage mainly because of his mindset though. He thought that he was going to die to Corax, and accepted that fact. Corax retreated from Curze because he'd lose against two Primarchs (especially since one was well rested). Peturabo I've no idea about, and as for Gulliman, we know he lost to Daemon-possessed Fulgrim but possibly defeated Alpharius (although that duel is dodgy as evidence).

^ What were you guys referring to, about Dorn and Curze?

It's an audiobook from the HH called The Dark King. Basically, Dorn and Cruze had a disagreement over tactics and Cruze went all rage on dorn, beating him up a fair bit. not a great thing to judge Dorn on though, as I feel he was rather taken by surprise!