Which primarch would win?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Corporal_Reznov**

I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

**DreadlordME!**

HORUS ALL THE WAY! Kill for the Living, KIll for the dead.

DK

but the emperor still protects the Imperium of man from the warp and Chaos...mankind would be wiped off the map if it wasn't for him...at the same time people arnt using the time the emperor is giving mankind to do what is needed to put the Imperium back on the right track.

At the same time for the OP this is talking about ones power in a moment that took down a man, but now that same man is making small changes throughout the galaxy to steer man in the right direction, and protect thos of pure heart.

**Durza**

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

Chaos isn't corrupt at all. It is exactly what it appears to be. Evil. The Imperium is corrupt in that those in power are often as bad as the enemy they claim to fight.

DK

Durza wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:I have to ask. Why call the Imperium corrupt? Is it more corrupt in comparison to who exactly? Chaos and Imperium are both corrupt and you can add Tau into that mix with their hypocrisy and Eldar with their arrogance.

Chaos isn't corrupt at all. It is exactly what it appears to be. Evil. The Imperium is corrupt in that those in power are often as bad as the enemy they claim to fight.

but that's not everyone, that's a few and more times then not they get whats coming to them...or the Sisters get a hold of them.

**Void__Dragon**

Russ Mandarin wrote:So basically what you're telling me is that Magnus was so unskilled that he got caught off guard by someone he supposedly had dead to rights........I bet Russ broke his back because that's his weak spot too.

He knew exactly how to cripple Magnus

Only what I said is actually backed up by the book.

"Caught off guard" implies that Russ made an unorthodox and intelligent attack that Magnus could not react to or expect. That last part is correct, the first part is not.

When I say Russ "flailed blindly," I don't say that as in that is my interpretation of the story. I mean that is exactly what the story says. Flailed blindly.

Magnus and Russ were going back and forth at the start of the fight, with Magnus punching through Russ' heart and Russ breaking Magnus' arm, only after this, Magnus maintained a decisive advantage, impaling Russ with a blade of pure thought, killing the wolves Russ brought to help him fight Magnus (Yes that's right, Russ had help fighting Magnus), and scalding and blinding him with Warpfire. This isn't even mentioning that Magnus was beating Russ' ass while tearing and transmuting apart the surface of Prospero, holding back the entire Space Wolves from interfering in their fight, killing Wolves and Custodians who attempted to go after the Thousand Sons while fighting Russ, and of course preparing a spell to transport all the Thousand Sons and humans who served them to the Eye of Terror (Which numbers in the millions of people). Oh, and of course he did this in the presence of several members of the Sisters of Silence, as iproxtaco said.

Magnus was more powerful than Leman Russ, who won by luck and luck alone (Or maybe Tzeentch orchestrated this via fate, hard to say).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:Well then, the Laeran daemon in Fulgrim's body has the highest primarch kill count.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:The primarchs would win. Numbers beat skill any day. Apart from Thursday.

Seriously, Horus at perhaps double his normal power was enough to kill the Emperor. Now imagine if Horus had Sanguinius and Angron fighting alongside him while Magnus restrained his psychic powers. That's just four.

I'd say maybe, just maybe, the massed might of all four Chaos Gods did slightly more than just double Horus' power.

**mwnciboo**

Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took 7 legions to take him down, he didn't run like a ****** like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero, bloody but unbowed, met his end like a true warrior. Fulgrim was an opportunist and it was not a fair 1 vs 1 fight, having your entire legion massacred by 7 others.

He was straight, uncorruptable, loyal and headstrong. The perfect Warrior. He is the HECTOR of 40k.

2nd choice would be Sanguinius, even Horus thought he should be warmaster.

Love this image, very stirring imagery.

**Void__Dragon**

mwnciboo wrote:Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took 7 legions to take him down, he didn't run like a ****** like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero, bloody but unbowed, met his end like a true warrior. Fulgrim was an opportunist.

Uh, that's kind of an exagerration of the events.

**Durza**

mwnciboo wrote:Ferrus, he was the strongest. It took a single primarch with a fancy sword to take him down, he didn't run like Vulkan or Corax. Went down swinging like a true Hero.

One on One, he would smash any of them.

One on one, he was roughly even with Fulgrim. Which means he loses to Horus, Sanguinius and Angron. At least.

**Void__Dragon**

To be fair, Fulgrim is highly regarded as a combatant, would say he's a bit above the norm for Primarchs, though yeah, not to the extent of Angron, Sanguinius, or Horus in martial combat, and of course Magnus and Lorgar are powerful psykers.

Edit: Also, digging the new avatar Durza.

**Durza**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Durza wrote:Well then, the Laeran daemon in Fulgrim's body has the highest primarch kill count.

Spoiler:

Doesn't Lorgar make said Daemon his bitch in Aurelian?

Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

Durza wrote:The primarchs would win. Numbers beat skill any day. Apart from Thursday.

Seriously, Horus at perhaps double his normal power was enough to kill the Emperor. Now imagine if Horus had Sanguinius and Angron fighting alongside him while Magnus restrained his psychic powers. That's just four.

I'd say maybe, just maybe, the massed might of all four Chaos Gods did slightly more than just double Horus' power.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

EDIT: Fixed quotes.

And thanks.

**Void__Dragon**

Durza wrote:Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

None, but it shows Lorgar is stronger than the dude who killed two Primarchs.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

Horus was certainly one of the strongest Primarchs before-hand in martial combat. Him being definitely the most powerful is arguable. Corax's word gets far too much credit than it really should.

And I don't think so, keep in mind not only was his physical might increased, but he was granted immense psychic power on the level of the Emperor.

The Emperor is powerful enough by virtue of his own psychic might to rival the combined power of all four Chaos Gods.

I'd like to think that the other Primarchs couldn't be corrupted by Chaos at all if one among their number was so powerful the combined might of the four powers gave him only double his own might. Especially when you consider that Horus wasn't an active psyker at all, like Lorgar and Magnus were.

**Durza**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Durza wrote:Yes, but how many primarchs has that guy killed?

None, but it shows Lorgar is stronger than the dude who killed two Primarchs.

True, but I think my original comment was in reply to something regarding primarch kill tallies or something. But that was a whole page ago. I'm attributing that loss at least partly to the fact that the daemon hadn't shaped the body to its liking yet.

Overall, I wouldn't say so. He was the strongest primarch beforehand. Any more than double and that couldn't be true.

Horus was certainly one of the strongest Primarchs before-hand in martial combat. Him being definitely the most powerful is arguable. Corax's word gets far too much credit than it really should.

True, but it's hard to imagine the Emperor making these divine super beings at much less than half as powerful as himself when he wanted to use them to conquer the galaxy. Even if it was more then double though, numbers more than make up for strength when they're that heavily in your favour.

**mwnciboo**

Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

**Void__Dragon**

Durza wrote:True, but I think my original comment was in reply to something regarding primarch kill tallies or something. But that was a whole page ago. I'm attributing that loss at least partly to the fact that the daemon hadn't shaped the body to its liking yet.

Possible, though Lorgar is also a pretty powerful psyker, even in First Heretic.

True, but it's hard to imagine the Emperor making these divine super beings at much less than half as powerful as himself when he wanted to use them to conquer the galaxy. Even if it was more then double though, numbers more than make up for strength when they're that heavily in your favour.

I personally find it harder to believe that Horus was about as powerful as all four Chaos Gods, personally.

That said, the Primarchs did IMO overall rival the Emperor's physical capabilities, but even Magnus couldn't reach his father's sheer psychic power, and Horus was actually shown in Collected Visions to be physically superior to the Emperor, possibly due to Chaos' influence.

**Durza**

But the gods were just giving him power. Too much and he could blow up or become a spawn.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

Try Aurelian.

**Void__Dragon**

Durza wrote:But the gods were just giving him power. Too much and he could blow up or become a spawn.

He obviously had their favor.

Keep in mind that Collected Visions outright states that the massed might of the Chaos Gods was in Horus.

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

He gets better.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Void__Dragon wrote:
At REG, I don't know what ADB himself said. But yeah, it wasn't a total stomp like some people pretend it is, but Curze isn't really one of the more combat-capable Primarchs either (Compared to say Angron or Sanguinius).

In case you find it interesting, here are his views from Bolter and Chainsword; http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=227612&st=0

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Curze doesn't best the Lion. It's a fight like most fights between equals; it ebbs and flows, with the advantage exchanging between each participant. The Lion starts out easily beating the hell out of Curze when it comes to weapons, but when it devolves into a brawl on the ground, Curze starts to come out on top. Then the fight is ended by a Dark Angel, before any real conclusion. Were the Night Lords smart and/or brave enough to end the fight? Nope. The Dark Angels did. A knight left his sword in a primarch's spine. That's balls of solid bronze, right there. And right at the end, it's clear that it was an equal resolution: both primarchs are equally wounded. Even the Night Lords in this story don't get the main character, Corswain. Sevatar and Sheng are held off by one Angel, and Curze gets sneak attacked a second time because he's too frothing and wounded to focus like a decent warrior would.

This really highlights one of the dangers of 40K. You write something with absolute neutrality; with no one winning; with both sides inflicting equal damage to one another; even with one side getting the advantage over a faction you usually write about, and still it's easy to see it as "This guy makes the Night Lords awesome all the time." Um. Like... when I make them cowards? When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty, while Curze is a suffering wretch who gets impaled by two sneak attacks? They got a cameo in The First Heretic, when Curze saves (and hates) the character I really like, and Sevatar is ordered to stop Corax, which he immediately fails to do. As cameos go, that's not exactly exalting them.

He also posted (and this is directly relevant)

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:But this is why I never really join in those "Which primarch is a better fighter" threads. Because the answer is always really "Whichever one has circumstantial advantage in that particular moment." They're equals, really. It's the circumstantial things like emotion, desperation, and the things happening around them that make it interesting, not just whom happens to be more generally badass than whomever else. When someone says "Angron is the best fighter", I find that leeches my interest rather than adds to it. I see Angron beating anyone if the situation is right, or losing to anyone if the situation is absolutely wrong. Hell, even Lorgar. Sure, we saw him at his lowest ebb in The First Heretic, but six months after Istvaan? He's not going to be the same guy at all.

For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

**Seaward**

mwnciboo wrote:Hold on, after reading the 1st Heretic, Lorgar is the weakest and least martial of all the Primarchs. Erebus & Kor Phaeron are convinced he will die on the surface of Istvaan V, Corax whips his hide raw before Curze jumps in and saves him.

That's true.

It's also true that he becomes one of the most powerful during the course of the Heresy. Once he finds his true calling, he becomes quite a beast.

**Tadashi**

Durza wrote:The Emperor is now the figurehead of a corrupt Imperium. When Horus struck him down, it began the long descent of his empire into what it currently is. Horus destroyed the Emperor as a leader, destroyed what he tried to build and put him on life support. Horus killed the Emperor whether he's dead or not.

And the Emperor's 'death' would destroy the Imperium, allowing the reborn Emperor to rebuild it. Rebirth through destruction...that's what the Emperor is good at...

**Void__Dragon**

"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

The notion that for instance Guilliman, who is arguably less of a physical threat than even pre-character development Lorgar (Lorgar pretty easily closed a pretty large gap and knocked him on his ass, with Guilliman, who was previously impassive, looking noticeably hesitant afterwards, this also being a book ADB wrote incidently), could best Horus, Angron, or Sanguinius in martial combat, is highly unlikely, if not completely impossible. Some Primarchs are simply better in terms of combat than others. Oh sure, Guilliman is very capable at logistics or strategy, or bringing a world into compliance, and you can argue that when all areas are considered the Primarchs are more or less equal, but when speaking only of power within combat? Yeah no.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Curze is weak. But as strong as Angron, Horus, Sanguinius, or Magnus? Probably not. He's a step below them IMO, on the level of the Lion (Obviously) and Leman Russ (Though Russ is harder to gauge).

**im2randomghgh**

Void__Dragon wrote:"When I make the Lion out to be the epitome of knightly valour and loyalty"

I can't help but notice that this is completely contradictory to Lion El'Jonson's prior characterization in the novels concerning him. The Lion was a scumbag in every sense of the word.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:For the record, I think you are being somewhat harsh to Curze. While not as focussed on the martial aspect of it, he did certainly do what Primarchs do best; he fought a lot.

Of course he did.

But the idea that ADB seems to be proposing, that every Primarch is equal in combat, is not supported by anything BL or GW or has actually put out.

The notion that for instance Guilliman, who is arguably less of a physical threat than even pre-character development Lorgar (Lorgar pretty easily closed a pretty large gap and knocked him on his ass, with Guilliman, who was previously impassive, looking noticeably hesitant afterwards, this also being a book ADB wrote incidently), could best Horus, Angron, or Sanguinius in martial combat, is highly unlikely, if not completely impossible. Some Primarchs are simply better in terms of combat than others. Oh sure, Guilliman is very capable at logistics or strategy, or bringing a world into compliance, and you can argue that when all areas are considered the Primarchs are more or less equal, but when speaking only of power within combat? Yeah no.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Curze is weak. But as strong as Angron, Horus, Sanguinius, or Magnus? Probably not. He's a step below them IMO, on the level of the Lion (Obviously) and Leman Russ (Though Russ is harder to gauge).

I agree, though a little less...strongly worded.

TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

**Void__Dragon**

That was strongly worded?

Hm, I apologise if that is how SREG finds it, it was unintentional.

**Durza**

im2randomghgh wrote:TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

I'd mostly agree, but Angry Lorgar is somewhere between tier two and three. Alpharius is probably even with Guilliman, considering a normal human was able to hold 'Alpharius' off and Guilliman beat 'Alpharius' in combat.

**Void__Dragon**

Yeah, Lorgar gets pretty powerful later on based on what I've heard about Aurelian.

Spoiler:

Alpharius I have always considered to be weaker than his brothers in combat, IMHO. Being able to pull off having normal Astartes act as your stand-in in battles implies that he's not that strong relative to his brothers.

**im2randomghgh**

Durza wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:TBH When I think of primarchs in combat, I think of them almost in tiers.
Emperor
Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus
Dorn Horus Russ Corax Fulgrim
Lion Curze Perturabo Khan Manus
Vulkan Lorgar Mortarion Alpharius/Omegon
Guilliman
...
...
...
Valdor. I just thought I'd include him because he's badass.

I'd mostly agree, but Angry Lorgar is somewhere between tier two and three. Alpharius is probably even with Guilliman, considering a normal human was able to hold 'Alpharius' off and Guilliman beat 'Alpharius' in combat.

Well this would be Heresy-era, considering a lot of them are dead now (enough of them are dead that Valdor would be up there

)
meaning it would be the same Lorgar who got raped by Corax.

Also, Alpharius is weaker than any one primarch, true, but he's actually 2, so not that bad.

**Lord Chiasson**

Have to go with Angron, not only is he one of the only still living Primarchs(daemon I know but still he survived for over 10,000 years plus) it was said that few could match him save Sanguinius and Horus. It makes sense. I would narrow it down to Horus, Russ, Angron and Sanguinius in a straight up 1 vs 1 torney style to the death. Reasons: personal of course but also there personalities looking past combat prowess. Russ and Angron both could give two cents if there fighting there fellow brothers as shown before the heresy, Sang has a dark side which he never hesitated to attack Horus at all once he came face to face on the battle barge thus leading me to believe he would never hesitate in a one on one fight to the death even they weren't traitors. Horus I threw in there cause he has knowglde of all his brothers strengths and weakness, knows what makes em tick.

**Durza**

And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

**Seaward**

Durza wrote:And what if Sanguinius vs Horus is the first fight in the tournament?

And it's pre-Heresy? Sanguinius wins.

**Lord Chiasson**

There is only two possible outcomes and of course I can say Horus wins or Sang wins but then someone will give me why im wrong and so on and so forth. I was just stating the Primarchs who I thought it would be narrowed down to(regardless of an actually torney order), as far as any of us being able to prove who actually would win as stated earlier its pretty pointless.