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NONE WOULD WIN the emperor would come and wup their primarch arses

One thing to consider would be whether Fulgrim's psychic shield is unique or possessed by every primarch. It would have an impact on how effective Magnus would be.

I see the the Emperor like Dumbeldor in Harry Potter, he saw the road that lay ahead and knew what must happen to secure the foothold for Mankind. He has been far more powerful in death (or throned) then he would have been alive. His sacrifice has protected the IOM for 10,000 years, no Daemon god can claim comparison to that. 4 gods (that i know of, and only one was needed to wipe out the Eldar just about) and they have not brought down the IOM.

With that said he should be taken out of the running for this thread IMO, due to the fact that he may die in a fight vs a Primarch, but i bet in his death that Primarch will suffer pain beyond words at the Big Es entertainment.

Well, in a naked cage fight, I dare say Ferrus would win (Mr. Thunder Hammer Hands?) though that Fulgrim would be a slimy foe naked, getting all homoerotic on the other guys and making the manly men feel very uncomfortable.

I do think people are underestimating Alpharius. He dodged a bolter shell at point blank range fired by none other than Horus himself. Surely Horus wasn't just being a dick and missing on purpose, his trusted subordinates had just been utterly humiliated by first having their ship crippled and then boarded by people we can assume to have been cruising about in space shuttles. I can't really think of anyone else dodging a bolt shell from such close range and managing to end up at the firer's throat after taking a volley from the entire staff of a battle barge's bridge. Sure, if it was another primarch like Vulkan or Ferrus they would of taken the bolt to the skull like a boss just to prove they could but the dodge is impressive. He also had the clear head to sacrifice some of his martial honor to spank Robot Gorillaman like a newborn by letting him think he'd killed the primarch himself.

I still ascribe to all the Primarches being roughly equal. They've only ever been bested by circumstance.

And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it. Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face. Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker. It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

And stop saying dumb stuff like Magnus would just fry their brains. He couldn't just do that. don't you think he would have when Russ was pillaging his pride and joy if he could have? Primarches have an extreme natural resistance to the warp and its power. Not to say they can't be seduced by it, just saying that they can resist its raw power.

+1 Yay Ferrus!! Finally people are starting to recognise how hardcore Ferrus Manus was.

BrainDeleted wrote:
And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it. Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face. Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker. It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

No I think he's catching perfectly reasonable amount of flak. Magnus wasn't concentrating on Russ, he wasn't using his full power, and lost due to luck. Sure, flailing like that is perfectly fine, but he was so successful due to chance, not skill of any sort. And this happened whilst Magnus had the upper hand. Yeah, good job Russ.

DK wrote:I see the the Emperor like Dumbeldor in Harry Potter, he saw the road that lay ahead and knew what must happen to secure the foothold for Mankind. He has been far more powerful in death (or throned) then he would have been alive. His sacrifice has protected the IOM for 10,000 years, no Daemon god can claim comparison to that. 4 gods (that i know of, and only one was needed to wipe out the Eldar just about) and they have not brought down the IOM.

With that said he should be taken out of the running for this thread IMO, due to the fact that he may die in a fight vs a Primarch, but i bet in his death that Primarch will suffer pain beyond words at the Big Es entertainment.

Dumbledore couldn't foresee anything. If the Emperor saw the road ahead, maybe he could have, say, not humilited an entire legion of religious zealots?

Why would the Chaos gods ever want to compare to that? They're only concerned with their own survival. As for the IoM, the fall of the Eldar was far longer than you might think, a slow fall from an enlightened race to a decadent and horrible orgy. And no non-Imperial fluff supports the claim that the Emperor is any way conscious. The gods aren't going to just manifest in the real world and blast the IoM, it would be cheating. Their followers are waging a siege war on a fortress hundreds of times larger than their own. Not exactly easy. And if the Emperor is so powerful, why do all those Xenos races and threats still exist?

Entertainment might be a bad word there. And he shouldn't be included because he's not a primarch.

I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART. It's not luck either...Sheesh, everyone knows go for the eye. Magnus probably shouldn't have let Russ 'flail blindly' into his darned eye. How do you do that? Arrogance? Recklessness? Sheer ineptitude? If you're going to argue that Russ didn't win on his own merit, then you're arguing that he won on Magnus' lack.

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

Darn, caught me before my edit. Check out the above.

How in the world wasn't he concentrating on Russ and not at full power? He was looming over him getting ready to deliver the coup de grace
Even before that the narration said they both brought their full primarch power to bear.



Russ being such a martially skilled individual in such precarious circumstances unleashed a wild blow that Magnus couldn't avoid, catching him in the eye.

This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.

While Magnus was hurt Russ raised his giant body over his head(Magnus making no attempt to stop this) and broke him.

Ahriman cried out as he saw Magnus reel back from the Wolf King, one hand clutched to his eye as his shattered arm crackled with regenerative energies. As broken and bloodied as Leman Russ was, he was brawler enough to seize his opportunity. He barrelled into Magnus and gripped him around the waist like a wrestler, roaring as he lifted his brother’s body high above his head.

Magnus can't even get his head in the game at this point

Good job Russ you undoubtedly bested Magnus.

BrainDeleted wrote:I do think people are underestimating Alpharius. He dodged a bolter shell at point blank range fired by none other than Horus himself. Surely Horus wasn't just being a dick and missing on purpose, his trusted subordinates had just been utterly humiliated by first having their ship crippled and then boarded by people we can assume to have been cruising about in space shuttles. I can't really think of anyone else dodging a bolt shell from such close range and managing to end up at the firer's throat after taking a volley from the entire staff of a battle barge's bridge. Sure, if it was another primarch like Vulkan or Ferrus they would of taken the bolt to the skull like a boss just to prove they could but the dodge is impressive. He also had the clear head to sacrifice some of his martial honor to spank Robot Gorillaman like a newborn by letting him think he'd killed the primarch himself.

I've seen normal Marines react to bolter fire. Normal marines. It's not like Horus holding the bolter is going to make the round propel at a higher velocity. Argel Tal deflected a salvo of gunfire with his swords, moving in their path and intercepting them so they wouldn't hit Lorgar (Not sure why, I mean, a bolter isn't going to hurt a Primarch). Lucius in Galaxy in Flames bobs and weaves and avoids gunfire easily while in combat. Cherubael, a Daemonhost when not at nearly his full power, could catch bolter rounds out of the air. Hell, Eisenhorn, a human, could deflect las-bolts and other forms of gunfire, and had trouble besting even other human swordsmen on occasion. So... I'm sorry, I'm not that impressed by dodging bolter fire.

And Russ is catching way too much flak for the Magnus fight which he undoubtedly won. Ooh boo Magnus wasn't paying attention...Well, guess what? That's idiotic and he deserved to lose because of it.

You might have a point if Magnus was trying to kill Leman Russ. Sadly that is not the case, he was buying his Legion time, and fighting to save them. He had no real intention of winning the fight (Ironic, all things considered)

Flailing is a legitimate tactic (Of desperation) it just shows that your opponent is a dumb**** for not deflecting clumsy blows aimed to the face.

Right, just like bringing wolves the size of tanks to back you up when you're getting your ass kicked is a legitimate tactic. It's also not one that requires on your skill or power, and as such is irrelevant to the question posed in this thread.

Magnus wasn't a fighter and it shows when he gets taken off guard and laid low by Russ. He's not a fighter, he's a giant brute who is also an amazing psyker.

Magnus might not be a better martial combatant than Russ (Though Index Astartes seems to believe otherwise, saying their strength was equal), but he wasn't a giant brute, he was doing perfectly well against Russ in close combat.

It balances out. IF he was more martially oriented he could of definitely been top dog but he wasn't. But again, he wasn't only defeated by circumstance. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

Only Russ was by the book's admission broken and bloodied, suffering many wounds in their battle, whereas, before the wound to the eye, Magnus was relatively fine, having only a broken arm which was already healing. Any notion that Russ could have lasted a while longer is unsupported and wishful thinking.

And stop saying dumb stuff like Magnus would just fry their brains. He couldn't just do that. don't you think he would have when Russ was pillaging his pride and joy if he could have? Primarches have an extreme natural resistance to the warp and its power. Not to say they can't be seduced by it, just saying that they can resist its raw power.

I'm pretty sure I never claimed the first part nor denied the second, so won't bother answering this since I'm pretty sure this couldn't be directed my way anyway.

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART. It's not luck either...Sheesh, everyone knows go for the eye. Magnus probably shouldn't have let Russ 'flail blindly' into his darned eye. How do you do that? Arrogance? Recklessness? Sheer ineptitude? If you're going to argue that Russ didn't win on his own merit, then you're arguing that he won on Magnus' lack.

Are you really under the impression that lashing out blindly, blindly, as in you don't know where your blow is going to land, and just happening to hit Magnus' eye is some great and epic feat of martial skill? I'm not claiming Magnus is some uber martially skilled GAWD on par with Angron or Sanguinius, so it is entirely believable that a lucky blow could get through and hit Magnus' eye. Were Magnus more skilled could he of avoided it? Perhaps, but don't act like it was some great showing of incompetence on Magnus' part, or else Russ was just flaunting his own incompetence by letting Magnus punch through his heart, crack open his armour, stab through his chest and out his back, and scald and blind him, while also letting him kill the two wolves he brought to back him up against Magnus. Not even mentioning the fact that Magnus was preparing a spell at the time, while also protecting his sons from the horde of Space Wolves and Custodians.

I mean, I'm not saying Leman Russ is a pushover, not by any means, his physical might and martial ability are easily above the norm for a Primarch, but "lashing out blindly" does not equal making some skillful, intelligent, and precise attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Russ Mandarin wrote:How in the world wasn't he concentrating on Russ and not at full power? He was looming over him getting ready to deliver the coup de grace
Even before that the narration said they both brought their full primarch power to bear.

Russ being such a martially skilled individual in such precarious circumstances unleashed a wild blow that Magnus couldn't avoid, catching him in the eye.

This was a battle fought on every level: physical, mental and spiritual, with each primarch bending every ounce of their almost limitless power to the other’s destruction.

While Magnus was hurt Russ raised his giant body over his head(Magnus making no attempt to stop this) and broke him.

Ahriman cried out as he saw Magnus reel back from the Wolf King, one hand clutched to his eye as his shattered arm crackled with regenerative energies. As broken and bloodied as Leman Russ was, he was brawler enough to seize his opportunity. He barrelled into Magnus and gripped him around the waist like a wrestler, roaring as he lifted his brother’s body high above his head.

Magnus can't even get his head in the game at this point

Good job Russ you undoubtedly bested Magnus.

Good find on the first quote.

Though once more, "lashed out blindly" is not some skillful maneuver on Russ' part. Especially since before that, Magnus had Leman Russ dead to rights.

Void__Dragon wrote:So... I'm sorry, I'm not that impressed by dodging bolter fire.

Well, it's kinda the only thing we've got about Alpharius...Sigh...But the point is more along these lines: He dodged the one kill shot then took several shots to the body (This is without power armor) and was still going for the throat...Of another Primarch. That's pretty impressive. I get the feeling this all happens while they're within a good ten paces of each other too over just a handful of seconds. Ooh well, it was impressive when it was written but there's been a lot of fluff inflation since then.

Void__Dragon wrote:You might have a point if Magnus was trying to kill Leman Russ. Sadly that is not the case, he was buying his Legion time, and fighting to save them. He had no real intention of winning the fight (Ironic, all things considered)

Eh? He was trying to play patty cake? Well, he most definitely deserved to be smacked down then because that's a silly way to fight...

Wasn't Magnus chilling in his tower for the first half of the fight while Russ was getting down and dirty with the brawl anyway? Probably good to remember who was fresh and who wasn't.

Void__Dragon wrote:

It balances out. They would have fought till they both passed out in a vacuum.

Only Russ was by the book's admission broken and bloodied, suffering many wounds in their battle, whereas, before the wound to the eye, Magnus was relatively fine, having only a broken arm which was already healing. Any notion that Russ could have lasted a while longer is unsupported and wishful thinking.

Err...That's not what I said? I said circumstance is what caused the Russ-Magnus fight to go how it did and that without those circumstances (Do I really need to list them?), Russ and Magnus would have fought each other to a bloody standstill. Besides, the Crimson King had his spine broken over the Wolf King's knee...So I don't think he was in much shape to continue either. In that scenario Russ didn't need to last longer, he had already won the darn fight?

I'm not trying to say 'oh but Russ is better than Magnus'...I'm just railing against the way some people are painting their fight...Some people seem to think Magnus would have definitely won except Russ 'miraculously kicked his eye out which is totally unfair and not under Russ's control at all, he's a noob'. This isn't correct, excuse the hyperbole. I just don't agree with people who think Russ was inferior to Magnus. I also don't agree with people who think Russ is far superior to Magnus.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm pretty sure I never claimed the first part nor denied the second, so won't bother answering this since I'm pretty sure this couldn't be directed my way anyway.

It's not directed at you, my post wasn't directed at anyone specific.
That bit was for the group of people that have literally said throughout the thread Magnus would win by 'turning them into chickens' or 'frying their brains' or 'blowing up the whole arena'.

Void__Dragon wrote:Are you really under the impression that lashing out blindly, blindly, as in you don't know where your blow is going to land, and just happening to hit Magnus' eye is some great and epic feat of martial skill? I'm not claiming Magnus is some uber martially skilled GAWD on par with Angron or Sanguinius, so it is entirely believable that a lucky blow could get through and hit Magnus' eye. Were Magnus more skilled could he of avoided it? Perhaps, but don't act like it was some great showing of incompetence on Magnus' part, or else Russ was just flaunting his own incompetence by letting Magnus punch through his heart, crack open his armour, stab through his chest and out his back, and scald and blind him, while also letting him kill the two wolves he brought to back him up against Magnus. Not even mentioning the fact that Magnus was preparing a spell at the time, while also protecting his sons from the horde of Space Wolves and Custodians.

I mean, I'm not saying Leman Russ is a pushover, not by any means, his physical might and martial ability are easily above the norm for a Primarch, but "lashing out blindly" does not equal making some skillful, intelligent, and precise attack.

There's a pretty distinct difference between getting punked in a stand up fight and getting punked by a guy who...Has been beat to complete . One takes a lot more incompetence than the other. Guess which? Either way, Russ showed quite a bit more endurance and will than Magnus and that's why he won in this specific scenario. Not because of random luck. I never said flailing was a brilliant tactic (Though it's somewhat ridiculous to assume Russ didn't know the general area of Magnus's face when he flailed), I just said it's a legitimate one for last ditch efforts. Magnus was pretty arrogant/incompetent/flat out dumb to think his brother was down for the count and open himself up to the age old tactic of thrashing like a fish on dry land. Isn't arrogance Magnus's tragic flaw? I guess being dumb and over excited is Leman's...

There are really three options here when considering the last minute reversal of the fight:

1) You acknowledge that Russ's 'Never Say Die' attitude and true grit as what won him the fight. After all, he did break the man's back after all he went through and never once gave up, unlike Magnus.
2) You acknowledge that Magnus had a moment of weakness of some sort and opened himself up to a clumsy, last breath attack to his darned eye and that is why he lost because he was distracted.
3) A combination of 1+2.

Don't give me luck. That's a complete cop out.

Personally, I ascribe to option 3.

I think the fight between Magnus and Russ is a really good example of the equality of Primarches when you get down to it. The most psykic oriented Primarch vs. the one of most straight forward melee Primarches alongside Angron. It seemed to me they were a pretty equal match up until the very end. I think if they fought in an empty cube with no outside interference and they were both fresh and both had their preferred war gear and no time to prepare, it would have been a draw.

Durza wrote:One thing to consider would be whether Fulgrim's psychic shield is unique or possessed by every primarch. It would have an impact on how effective Magnus would be.

I imagine they all do, otherwise a single farseer could kill every single primarch at the same time by making their blood boil.

Plus, a good number of them have their own psychic powers. But by and large, I think Magnus' main advantage, if he had any, would be using force weapons.

Though that would more or less equal the advantages the others primarchs hold, since they are each vastly superior that each and every one of their brothers in their chosen skills.

Hmm, is this preheresy horus or post? because post heresy horus will all the chaos power would reall kill em all...

To answer this thread's original question, Dorn. Because when no one's looking he CREEEEEDs a fortified castle with several legions worth of Sardaukar manning heavy wall mounted weapon.

Though if he did that they could just walk into the castle because the fourth wall would be broken

BrainDeleted wrote:Well, it's kinda the only thing we've got about Alpharius...Sigh...But the point is more along these lines: He dodged the one kill shot then took several shots to the body (This is without power armor) and was still going for the throat...Of another Primarch. That's pretty impressive. I get the feeling this all happens while they're within a good ten paces of each other too over just a handful of seconds. Ooh well, it was impressive when it was written but there's been a lot of fluff inflation since then.

It shows reaction-time and quickness, and might be argued to put him above, say, Guilliman, but nowhere near dudes like Sanguinius, Angron, Magnus, Horus, or Leman Russ.

Eh? He was trying to play patty cake? Well, he most definitely deserved to be smacked down then because that's a silly way to fight...

Wasn't Magnus chilling in his tower for the first half of the fight while Russ was getting down and dirty with the brawl anyway? Probably good to remember who was fresh and who wasn't.

You're underestimating the limits of Primarch stamina. Namely, that there effectively aren't any. Ferrus Manus fought what was probably a Necron Construct for weeks without tiring, for example. Murdering numerous Space Marines while having your own Custodian + Sisters of Silence bodyguard isn't really that physically taxing.

Actually, that brings up another point, Magnus was in the presence of Sisters of Silence while fighting Russ as well.

But that doesn't change my point, Russ was there with the explicit motive to kill Magnus, Magnus on the other hand was just stalling and didn't have any intention of leaving this fight alive (His spell to teleport his sons sacrifices him).

Err...That's not what I said? I said circumstance is what caused the Russ-Magnus fight to go how it did and that without those circumstances (Do I really need to list them?), Russ and Magnus would have fought each other to a bloody standstill. Besides, the Crimson King had his spine broken over the Wolf King's knee...So I don't think he was in much shape to continue either. In that scenario Russ didn't need to last longer, he had already won the darn fight?

You said that he wasn't only beaten by circumstance, when, well, he basically was. Why would it be a bloody standstill? Before Russ lashed out blindly and hit Magnus' eye, Russ was far more grievously injured than Magnus was. And... No, the moment Magnus' eye was hit, he was blinded, and the bulk of his psychic power was now unfocused and weakened. Granted, this does show MAgnus has a physical weakness that can be exploited, which I have admitted in this thread, but in the context of that fight? By the time that occurred, hitting Magnus' eye was nearly the only way Russ could win.

I'm not trying to say 'oh but Russ is better than Magnus'...I'm just railing against the way some people are painting their fight...Some people seem to think Magnus would have definitely won except Russ 'miraculously kicked his eye out which is totally unfair and not under Russ's control at all, he's a noob'. This isn't correct, excuse the hyperbole. I just don't agree with people who think Russ was inferior to Magnus. I also don't agree with people who think Russ is far superior to Magnus.

The "Kicked his eye out" thing is outdated fluff, and presented as the Space Wolf account of the event regardless. And if Prospero Burns has taught me anything, it's that the Space Wolves love inflated stories of how awesome they are.

Frankly, I don't just think Magnus is superior to Russ. I think he's overall the most powerful Primarch. Aurelian allegedly supports this, but I haven't read it myself, since, you know, it's not exactly easy to find.

[quote[It's not directed at you, my post wasn't directed at anyone specific.
That bit was for the group of people that have literally said throughout the thread Magnus would win by 'turning them into chickens' or 'frying their brains' or 'blowing up the whole arena'.

Alright, fundamental misunderstanding here. I was never talking about after Magnus got his eye poked out. I was always talking about BEFORE he got his eye poked out. You know, when he had Russ just where he wanted him? Heart broken and bloodied? THEN Russ hit him in the eye. That's what I am talking about. Russ hitting him in his most vulnerable part while basically hanging on by a thread. That's the determination I was talking about and the incompetence on Magnus's part. You don't get smacked straight in your 'source of power' when you've clearly got the upper hand and just need to finish. That's a darned super villain mistake. Now that you know what I'm trying to say, please reread all of my points, I'm sure they'll make more sense.

On Primarch endurance, there is clearly a limit. Vulkan reached the limit holding onto a firedrake with one hand and the edge of a cliff with the other. Also, he was considered one of the physically strongest Primarches. Yes, they can work up a sweat and get fatigued.

Basically, Magnus got punked like a super villain just about to taste some sweet, sweet victory. Hardly the most powerful Primarch as you seem to think. I mean, if he can't protect his eye against a barely standing Leman Russ who flailed in the general direction of his face...Then he's not a very competent fighter. But that's not really what he's supposed to be. He's not a melee powerhouse. Though, as the fight demonstrated, he's extremely skilled in other things which makes him the equal of his brothers in war. Not the best.

I'm on the side of equality!

Russ was on fire(hair burning and everything), had his armor cracked, 1 or 2 of his hearts punctured, and severely bleeding
and he kept fighting evenly with Magnus.
Magnus had his arm shattered and his eye slashed and he gave up and allowed Russ to take him down and then break his back.

Russ endured way more punishment over the course of the fight but he never lost focus.

Hell the whole Russ lashing out blindly is in response to Magnus hitting him with another grievous attack that should have been precursor to him finishing Russ off.

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

Russ Mandarin wrote:
Russ endured way more punishment over the course of the fight but he never lost focus.

So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

On the Russ-Magnus debate, I'd say Russ' victory was the same as Fulgrim's against Manus. Outside his control completely.

Remulus wrote:Hmm, is this preheresy horus or post? because post heresy horus will all the chaos power would reall kill em all...

Post Heresy Horus is an ash cloud.

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

Except the death reflex?

im2randomghgh wrote:So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

We don't know the full battle history of every Primarch. A titan isn't really outside of any Primarch's capabilities as far as we know, they're completely ludicrous on the field of battle.

Durza wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

I dare say there'd be reflexes, just not caused by grabbing a fistful of nerves.

Magnus was incredibly capable in combat too; he is a primarch after all, and all of them were brawlers that made warbosses look like Gretchin.
Russ advantage over others was the brainless devotion his warriors showed to him; when Horus rebelled some of his warriors disagreed, but if Russ would, what would his warriors do? They don't care much about the imperium now either.
Insane warriors+insane devotion= guess what.
A Primarch's resistance to psychic powers may save them from being psychically nuked by Magnus, but not simply killed.
Russ was lucky, even though luck seems to be absent in recent lore; appearantly it is now only skill.
BTW, Space wolves is quite the disappointment. I imagined them as great and heroic warriors that love a pint of mead and a good story, but what I've seen makes them look like World Eaters with bigger beards.
Me not like.

BrainDeleted wrote:Except the death reflex?

im2randomghgh wrote:So what?

Characters in 40k deal with that and worse all the time.

Also, to just make a point in this debate, Magnus has several titan kills to his name. I can't see Russ taking out any titans...

Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

We don't know the full battle history of every Primarch. A titan isn't really outside of any Primarch's capabilities as far as we know, they're completely ludicrous on the field of battle.

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Didn't this titan bashing come after he was blessed by Tzeentch?

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I'd say it takes a fair amount of skill and determination to thrash for your life while some crazy giant has you BY THE HEART.

Not really. Think of the nerves he could have pinched while grabbing Russ' heart. It could have been reflex more than anything.

No, the nerves that control motor functions run through the spine. They wouldn't have been triggered by his heart getting grabbed.

So there's no reflexes whatsoever that would be triggered by someone grabbing your heart?

I dare say there'd be reflexes, just not caused by grabbing a fistful of nerves.

There's nerves hardwired through your heart. They electrocute it to keep it pumping. Also, there's nerve endings everywhere. Of course, the reflex there would be caused by pain, not the nerves themselves, so you're right about that, but technically wrong that the reflexes wouldn't be triggered by him grabbing the nerves.

im2randomghgh wrote:

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Wazdakka managed to kill one with a bike and some hope. And a chicken can survive for a moment after losing it's head. Doesn't mean it wins the fight with the farmer afterwards. I really don't see at all how some decapitated soon to be corpse has any bearing on this conversation just because it has a pulse for a few more seconds. The point was he took all that damage THEN WON THE FIGHT AND SURVIVED.

Primarchs are designed to take that kind of punishment. Dorn survived something similar with Kurze. Kurze and Sanguinius both survived their spines being severed. Ferrus Manus took a thunder hammer weilded by another primarch to the head and barely flinched. Mortarion survived getting someone's name carved into his heart.

BrainDeleted wrote:Like what? I can't think of something worse than being mostly blinded, on fire, and having recently undergone open heart surgery.

Well... if you're male...

BrainDeleted wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

What weapon, pray tell, did Russ have that could fell a titan? Running up and hitting it with a sword won't do all that much.

Well just an example off the top of my head that was worse would be Tsu'gan ripping a xenotech device that was controlling him out of his fething brain. Ripping brain>Missing one of two hearts.

Also, Vendatha, a custodian, had a full bolter clip pumped into his face, his head cut off with power swords and was impaled on a spear and IIRC he wasn't dead yet.

Wazdakka managed to kill one with a bike and some hope. And a chicken can survive for a moment after losing it's head. Doesn't mean it wins the fight with the farmer afterwards. I really don't see at all how some decapitated soon to be corpse has any bearing on this conversation just because it has a pulse for a few more seconds. The point was he took all that damage THEN WON THE FIGHT AND SURVIVED.

Actually he didn't die until Ingethel the Ascended kinda used his blood to become a daemon Prince.

And that was Wazdakka's greatest exploit, and made him super famous. Magnus destroyed several titans. Two Emperor-class xenos equivalents, actually, at the same time. And he had said himself that he had other titan kills too. Also, before their heresy, Magnus forced a space wolves force to submit to him by threatening to destroy their ships in orbit.