Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

*Loki, calling, Loki*!

willhman wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:The warp shadow has never seemed to effect orks before now. So it is unlikely it effects them at all.

Yet their weirdboy who is there psycker unit has to take a shadow in the warp leadership test I beleive, even though they get their energy from the waaagh energy all around them. Sorry dont really play against nids that much.

Me either, however in fluff it seems to hacve zero effect upon a waaagh itself.

Exactly completely not right, I mean do the necrons crypteks have to take that too?

Eh TT rules made for "Balance" seem to make poor measurements for fluff based arguments.

I am not sure the nids could win vs a united necron threat either, but them, orks and necro ns would still be fighting long after everyone else is dead though,

Blanks don't counter the WAAAGH! (for example, Jurgen's being near the warboss, or any Ork really did not remove the warboss' confidence, which for any Ork is massively boosted by the WAAAGH! depending on how many Boyz are participating-- sure it's a Cain book, but still, there's no evidence of this having any effect in tabletop or in the FFG games either), despite the fact that Blanks are FAR more effective than Tyranids at countering psychic powers-- in that psychic powers are utterly unusable against the Blank, and even being NEAR the Blank makes it (nigh) impossible to use a psychic power for all but the most powerful of psykers, whereas most psykers can use psychic powers with only a modicum of difficulty under the shadow of the warp.

Ergo, the Shadow of the Warp doesn't counter the WAAAGH!. Really, this one should have been obvious, as there's no evidence that it does anyway. Meanwhile, Blanks DO effect Tyranid synapse...

This thread started off relatively interesting, and then it reached a new level of realized potential once I finally smashed that overrused Ork codex quote to pieces.

But it has since degenerated into something horrible; complete with attempts to use TT balance for a fluff discussion.

sadfaece. Well, I'm throwing my lot in with the Tyranids. All in all I think they're tailor made to beat Orks down.

I do not think you smashed the ork quote. I think you simply pointed out how bad GW is at setting management

Eh if a single hive fleet can't curb stomp a small ork empire what chance do they have at everything else?

I feel that way about Ghazgul.

"Wooooooah, the largest Waaaaaggh in recorded history lead by the most competent ork in recorded history managed to ALMOST take a SINGLE planet belonging to a faction that controls MILLIONS of planets! Badass!"

Xenos get no love in 40K.

Pretty much and I Feel that GW really does not grasp size and numbers.

I kinda miss the old Ork fluff where they were just the noisy, troublesome neighbors of the 40K universe roaming around in cobbled together Space Hulks looking for fights, not this inexhaustible, massively reproducing idiot-savant space fungus that they turned into at some point.

It seems that 40K keeps trying to "sequel syndrome" all of the "bad guy" races by making them stronger, and more ominous and more powerful. When everything in the universe is apparently eventually going to win, it pretty much waters everything down and makes it cliche. The Tyranids, when they were re-released and re-vamped for 2nd Edition, were the "Oh gak" race. Chaos was dangerous and lurking in the shadows, Orks were annoying and occasionally became dangerous when a warlord could get them together, but the Tyranids were, no gak, going to eat everyone, and had been more or less unstoppable until the Ultramarines defeated them at Macragge, and nobody was sure if they could be defeated again.

Now, at this point with the new races and new fluff, apparently the Necrons are going to wake up and destroy the Imperium, Chaos is going to destroy the Imperium, Orks are going to destroy the Imperium, oh, and yeah, apparently the Tyranids are still going to eat the Imperium too.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Now, at this point with the new races and new fluff, apparently the Necrons are going to wake up and destroy the Imperium, Chaos is going to destroy the Imperium, Orks are going to destroy the Imperium, oh, and yeah, apparently the Tyranids are still going to eat the Imperium too.

I like your style. Whoever wins this debate.. it's definitely not going to be humanity, in the 40k grimdark universe, or even in this thread.

Pretty much, most other race will long be dead while the orks,necrons and nids still fight it out

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I kinda miss the old Ork fluff where they were just the noisy, troublesome neighbors of the 40K universe roaming around in cobbled together Space Hulks looking for fights

I don't.

I say good riddance.

That's because you're a bad person.

Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not think you smashed the ork quote. I think you simply pointed out how bad GW is at setting management

Eh if a single hive fleet can't curb stomp a small ork empire what chance do they have at everything else?

This isnt a small ork empire this is one of the larger ones, the Octarius war is between the nids and the blood axe clan (the most dangerous clan out there if you ask me) and the nids are gonna lose cause this empire has not only defended well against the empire but have manage to make several nice counter attacks in return. So yeah that is my fav ork empire place ever!!!!!!!!!

BlaxicanX wrote:That's because you're a bad person.

HahahAhaha! K, it wasn't that funny but still.

willhman wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not think you smashed the ork quote. I think you simply pointed out how bad GW is at setting management

Eh if a single hive fleet can't curb stomp a small ork empire what chance do they have at everything else?

This isnt a small ork empire this is one of the larger ones, the Octarius war is between the nids and the blood axe clan (the most dangerous clan out there if you ask me) and the nids are gonna lose cause this empire has not only defended well against the empire but have manage to make several nice counter attacks in return. So yeah that is my fav ork empire place ever!!!!!!!!!

Its what..a dozen worlds? twenty tops? That is really, really minor in the grand scrim of things.

I read somewhere that it is supposed to be the size of Ultramar, so if Ultramar is small the the Octarius system is small.

When you kill an ork 12 more pop up. That doesn't mean that they are fully grown orks that can kill things. It's like you have a big block of cheese cut that into 12 and you have 12 small blocks of cheese. Cut those blocks into 12 each and you have 144 smaller blocks of cheese. Cut those into 12 and you have 1728 tiny block cheese blocks that rippers can easily maul


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the nids codex it says that if the warring races don't unite then the whole galaxy us doomed

^ Well if that's what the codex says than it must be true!

Pretty much. Every codex more or less says the same thing about the stars of said codex.

Jayo'rWhen you kill an ork 12 more pop up. That doesn't mean that they are fully grown orks that can kill things. It's like you have a big block of cheese cut that into 12 and you have 12 small blocks of cheese. Cut those blocks into 12 each and you have 144 smaller blocks of cheese. Cut those into 12 and you have 1728 tiny block cheese blocks that rippers can easily maul

Actually the orks dont come out as child orks they come out as Yoofs which are a little bit smaller then ork boyz, but are still able to kill a space marine if they get into combat. In the end means 1728 Yoofs killing rippers which make the yoofs into boyz\Nobz

Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the nids codex it says that if the warring races don't unite then the whole galaxy us doomed

Yeah and it says in the ork codex if they unite the galaxy is doomed, your point??

The orks would win this war for one and only one major reason.

They love to fight.


Meaning unlike the 'Nids who for fight for survival and can adapt, yadda, yadda,
the Orks want to go Crumkpin' and will find a way to thrive on it. So the Tyranids
consume a world as they invade it they change themselves and produce units
that will fight effectively against it's inhabinants...the Orks will just use what ever
is handy and keep on truckin'. And will in all likely hood, use the instability of the
Tyranids against them. The Orks maybe stupid, but they're undeniably kunning!

The Orks surely would loose to a race/battle on the Tyranids terms, and are certainly
exploitable thru Warbosses, resources, etc. But! The 'Nids are even moreso in those terms!
It seems from the Tyranid codex the only real advantage they have is being able to
consistently retain experience in the form of units such as the Warriors and Tyrants
(synapse creatures). And they really only ever gain resources when they can consume
unmolested! (Logically you'd think that if resistance was too much the 'Nids would just simply
withdraw and attack elsewhere, but it seems they do the Total war thing with no other option!)

Orks trump this by never truely being linear, i.e. they're always changing up how they fight and
are entirely sporadic in warfare. (pun intended!)

It's been the underlying reason why the Orks are the dominant species in the galaxy. Additionally,
it seems that the 'Nids have very limited speed/means of intersteller space travel. I read somewhere
about how they have a Bioship that harnesses a sun's gravity to pull a Fleet into a system, but I can only
imagine the amount of engery/resources that takes to use and might go on to explain why they're so darn
aggressive in needing to defeating and devouring a world/system!

Not even the Hive fleets fight together or in cohesion from what's been displayed and the various
Splinter Fleets have been known to snubb at each other in the way of devouring worlds. Orks often
unite against other species regardless of infighting, which should be more suprising than it is.

^ Boom

ok i like orks so my post may be slightly baised.In any case, one of the big things which is holding back the orks is the Iom which is dieing slowly but surely their head has been cut and they are stopping to run around like a headless chicken. I personally think that eventually the orks will over run the Iom and take a massive Waaagh to the eldar as well if some one doesnt do it first. Gakuskall thrakka knows that this will happen eventually and i reckon that he will be the one to lead the charge with the Iom outof the way there will be little to stop the orks. and dont forget if gahskull thrakka gives a teleporta to wasdakka gutsmek every one is . thats my opionon you dont have to agree. i also agree with most that has been said obove me.

Bobakos wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd

On the first point you don't have to win all the battles to win a war. Since the OP's question has not specified if this is one great battle or a war I assumed that we are talking about a war. As such a full scale war would be different. Sure the Nids would lose some of the battles but they would definitely win some as well. So for the winning battles we have: % of casualties of the enemy ( we are talking about Orks = large amount of biomass) + % of own casualties + probability of new genes and strengths implemented to the swarm.

Second point. Touche.

Finally, on the example this is but a Single HiveFleet (if I recall) and the Nids already have several other HiveFleets over the universe + splinter fleets that are growing ( I am excluding any possibility of extra hivefleets that have not yet reached the galaxy as it is an unknown factor)

Only a few years later, in 997.M41 Hive Fleet Leviathan unexpectedly appeared from "below" the plane of the galaxy (on the Z axis) and attacked from two points, cutting off large portions of the galaxy from reinforcements. Just as it seemed the defenses of the Segmentum Solar and perhaps Terra itself would be tested, the Tyranids were distracted by being deflected into the star system of a powerful Ork empire. While the Orks are managing to stall the main Tyranid Hive Fleet's advance, they are likely to reemerge from these battles, victorious and stronger than ever after having absorbed potent Orkoid genetic material into their own genome pool.

This is what I was talking about. Ok I know its the wikia but I don't have the codex at hand

The same way, this is only one ork "emperie"

^Ok well if you look on lex it says that the war between the empire and the fleet are to equal to actually declare who is winnin also to note, the eldar and the iom actually attacked the ork side, some people beleive that they were attacked because they were starting to gain an upper hand in the war.

Also the nids dont need to actually win the world completly over, they have won planets with lesser numbers against orks by taking the resources that they need from the dead bodies and making new nids out of them. All of this happenin when the orks had more orks then nids, thats always a bad sign!!!!

How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.

The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.

Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.

The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.

Correction: Both sides need to win to win. Any ground lost to the Tyranids equals more biomass fed into the machine. The Orks not only have to hold their ground against the Tyranids, they have to utterly shut off access and deny any biomass available to them in their retreat. Scortched earth tactics may not even work because Tyranids can still draw their resources from the fertile ash. This means its not easy to deny resources from the Tyranids considering any ground lost to the Tyranids counts as an automatic victory for them and only ground completely on lockdown by the Orks equals a victory for them. Otherwise it's still a coin toss for the outcome.

Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.

The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.

And this is my biggest problem with the modern ork fluff. When another race takes over the Tyranid niche as the unstoppable, always reproducing in bigger numbers race, you know the game is suffering from sequelitis. Orks are supposed to be the galaxy's loud, disruptive neighbors with cars on blocks in the front yard, not the ominous creeping death. If there was to be one major fluff retcon in 40k, I think I would choose return the orks to their roots when they were funny and awesome, not some kind of unstoppable force that can out-last the friggin Tyranids.