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Sekminara wrote:Great battle reports. Your tenacity when it comes to this massive project is inspiring. Keep up the good work.

That business with the tank-shocking is a little shady though. Even if your opponent did slip in a couple of less-than-honest moves himself. It was my understanding that you either declare a tank shock, or a move. Disallowing a player from measuring a move then declaring a tankshock.

I feel as if that would be the equivalent of measuring the "movement" of an unit to determine the range from its target to fire a weapon.

I can measure 24" for my tank, choose not to move, and then know my Shuriken Cannons are in range.
I would call that a smart tactic, and every good player uses measurments from other phases to know ranges/distances.

TS is done instead of moving and it seems that the intention is to make it a gamble by making you declare your movement speed, etc.

The rulebook gives you the ability to measure and then change that distance for moving (even to zero), but not for tank shock.

Not a huge deal, but I wouldn't do that again.

pretre wrote:TS is done instead of moving and it seems that the intention is to make it a gamble by making you declare your movement speed, etc.

The rulebook gives you the ability to measure and then change that distance for moving (even to zero), but not for tank shock.

Not a huge deal, but I wouldn't do that again.

The rulebook says you do Tank Shock in Leu of movement. Thats what I did. I measured my movement, I then decided not to move, and instead tank shock, which the rulebook allows me to do.

Theres nothing in the rules that says I cant do what Im doing, and plenty to support what im doing. Tank shock is a type of movement, I measured my movement (allowed), then decided not to move (allowed), and then decided to tank shock (allowed).

Its perfectly acceptable in the rulebook, and im going to do it until 6th edition comes out.

P68, Tank shock is done instead of moving normally and replaces the moving normally part of the rules. Premeasuring is part of the moving normally part. Tank shock also explicitly explains how it works, including the guessing distance part. If you could measure, it wouldn't matter.

Once you start moving, i.e. measure, etc, you can either move the distance you measured, or less or nothing. P11

You are not given permission to do something else instead of movement after you begin measuring. I'm not trying to bog you down in a rules dispute, but I think you are mistaken here.

First off awesome job pulling down a 4-1 record with Eldar. It's encouraging me to finally build and paint a chunk of Eldar models that have been in my closet for ages.

In regards to game 5:

Here is how it would likely go down if you pulled this while we were playing.

You'd start to do this. I'd call you on it since I'm in the same camp as Petre on this.You'd disagree. This would annoy me as you are reading into a grey area and trying to exploit it for your gain. As I have 99% (pretty sure I might have slipped once or twice as a teenager) of the time followed the path of taking the least adventageous reading of the rules myself your actions would annoy me.

At this point if I felt it would matter in a game I'd call a judge over and accept his decision. If I felt it wouldn't impact the result of the game or couldn't be bothered to take the game that seriously then I'd ask you one more time if you were sure and explain again my take on how I interact with grey rules. Then I'd allow you to if you insisted.

However in either case you would probably not get an above average score on your sports. I wouldn't drop you below average, no matter how many grey areas you attempt to exploit during the game, as you are playing by what you perceive as the rules but I find it less than sportsmanlike in a game with grey rules to play it in that manner. However I would be upfront and honest with you at the conclusion of the game as to what I'm giving you and why.

Just my personal take on the matter.

Gotta agree. If this were the case, every player playing any army with tanks could pre-measure their rams this way, making the statement in the rules banning pre-measuring pointless.

Hulksmash wrote:First off awesome job pulling down a 4-1 record with Eldar. It's encouraging me to finally build and paint a chunk of Eldar models that have been in my closet for ages.

I just picked up a crazy good deal on a footdar army and I'm screwing around with it now. Reecius made me think about it and this thread is helping. lol

I should become a DCM just so I can have a snappy title referencing the presence of an R in my screenname.

I'm horrible about that Pretre. My bad dude

I'll forgive you... this time.

The Rulebook allows for what im doing. Not that I really care, I can guess ranges 90% of the time, the only thing that really matters is if I have to move more than 12" or less than 12" so I can still shoot my weapons.

Step 1) I measure my movement (Check)
Step 2) I declare that Im taking back my move (Rule Book Allows This)
Step 3) I declare that I am instead doing a ram/tank shock (Rulebook says you ram instead of moving, This is what Im doing. Im not doing a move then ramming, Im doing a ram instead of my move).
Step 4) I move my Tank Shock (Theres no evidence that I even used the previous measurement to my advantage).

The RuleBook Clearly Allows for me to do this, everyone is just bitching about it because its new/They never thought about it like this/They dont have 9 Armor 12 Vehicles so they percieve it as unfair.

As any stupid rule Dispute
1) A Judge can over turn it at any time.
2) 6th edition is comming out in a few weeks so who cares?

I did it once in the game, and my opponent put his models back on the table ALTHOUGH I measured the distance I needed to get there. Worst case scenario if my opponent doesnt let me do this, I just move more than I think I need to move and get a cover save as well as the tank shock.


BTW Hulk why are you selling your termies?


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hyv3mynd wrote:Gotta agree. If this were the case, every player playing any army with tanks could pre-measure their rams this way, making the statement in the rules banning pre-measuring pointless.

Pre Measuring has never applied to the movement phase, only the shooting and assault phase.


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pretre wrote:P68, Tank shock is done instead of moving normally and replaces the moving normally part of the rules. Premeasuring is part of the moving normally part. Tank shock also explicitly explains how it works, including the guessing distance part. If you could measure, it wouldn't matter.

Once you start moving, i.e. measure, etc, you can either move the distance you measured, or less or nothing. P11

You are not given permission to do something else instead of movement after you begin measuring. I'm not trying to bog you down in a rules dispute, but I think you are mistaken here.

Your arguement would be relevant if I measured during the tank shock. I didnt measure during the tank shock, I measured during the normal move, Which I took back (the rulebook says you can take back movements), and instead tank shocked. Im clearly allowed to do what I did.

You have a case, smitty, except...

Well, I'll talk about it with you in private if you like. Shoot me a text.

@Smitty

Bored with the termies. Gonna remake the list later for my Iron Warrior counts-as.

As a sidenote:

"The RuleBook Clearly Allows for me to do this, everyone is just bitching about it because its new/They never thought about it like this/They dont have 9 Armor 12 Vehicles so they percieve it as unfair."

This is probably as far off base as it could be. It's not new. I know people who have been ramming and tank shocking since day 1 of 5th. They just think you played incorrectly. It's not about it being perceived as unfair.

Hulksmash wrote:@Smitty

Bored with the termies. Gonna remake the list later for my Iron Warrior counts-as.

As a sidenote:

"The RuleBook Clearly Allows for me to do this, everyone is just bitching about it because its new/They never thought about it like this/They dont have 9 Armor 12 Vehicles so they percieve it as unfair."

This is probably as far off base as it could be. It's not new. I know people who have been ramming and tank shocking since day 1 of 5th. They just think you played incorrectly. It's not about it being perceived as unfair.

If It had made a difference in the tournament that would be one thing, but in the entire tournament I think I tank shocked like twice, pre measuring it once. Not only that, but the pre measure didnt matter because I had to turbo boost to get there (which I would had done anyways). Pre Measuring tank shock only matters if the distance is 7-12", because then I can move enough to get hit on 6's, but also shoot my weapons. Besides those 6 inches pre measuring tank shock doesnt matter, because when in doubt flat it out.


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Spellbound wrote:You have a case, smitty, except...

Well, I'll talk about it with you in private if you like. Shoot me a text.

It doesnt matter lol I only did it once in an instance where I had to turbo boost anways. The only reason I wrote it in the report is that I found it ironic that my opponent put his models back on the board claiming that I wasnt in range, when i had measured the distance to get there in the first place.

We're not saying you are a bad person, Smitty, we're just saying that we don't agree with your interpretation and feel that it isn't supported by the rules.

Throwing out '6th is coming' and 'it didn't matter' is just deflecting the issue.

pretre wrote:We're not saying you are a bad person, Smitty, we're just saying that we don't agree with your interpretation and feel that it isn't supported by the rules.

Throwing out '6th is coming' and 'it didn't matter' is just deflecting the issue.

My point about 6th edition is that I hope it will clear up vague rule interpretations.

My point about it not mattering, is that It didnt effect the outcome of the game, so in the literal sense it didnt matter.

If I had tank shocked a paladin unit off the board doing 20+ Tank Shocks, Pre Measuring all of them, then it would be a different story, but I tank shocked an IG heavy weapons squad that my opponent put back on the board.


I would generally appreciate if the comments could move towards current 5th Meta Game/ Tactics used in the report / Anything to do with a larger scope than scruitinizing minute moves.

I'm going to let it go after this post, but...
You're getting defensive for no reason. The magnitude of a misplaced rule isn't really the issue; it is that the rule was misplayed.

I don't care if it mattered or not or if 6th edition gives out free booze and hummers. I do care about playing the game correctly.

Like the energy field rule brought up earlier, people can play things like this differently; it's not fair to keep trying to say "this is wrong" when it's a very ambiguous rule to start with, and when your interpretation my very well be wrong to him and his gaming group.

Some groups play dual Runes of Warding as forcing 4D6 for psychic tests, some play it as still being 3D6, this is a consequence of ambiguous writing, and its best to let it drop in cases like this.

pretre wrote:I'm going to let it go after this post, but...
You're getting defensive for no reason. The magnitude of a misplaced rule isn't really the issue; it is that the rule was misplayed.

I don't care if it mattered or not or if 6th edition gives out free booze and hummers. I do care about playing the game correctly.

Booze and Hummers you say?


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Avatar 720 wrote:Like the energy field rule brought up earlier, people can play things like this differently; it's not fair to keep trying to say "this is wrong" when it's a very ambiguous rule to start with, and when your interpretation my very well be wrong to him and his gaming group.

Some groups play dual Runes of Warding as forcing 4D6 for psychic tests, some play it as still being 3D6, this is a consequence of ambiguous writing, and its best to let it drop in cases like this.

Yea as far as Energy Field and Tank Shocking shenanigans, Im going to ask the TO how to play it and consider it problem solved.

Yeah I don't think I'd get very much mileage throwing out a 30" tape from my NDK and Interceptors for their shunt, then "take it back" and move just into range of their 24" guns.

hyv3mynd wrote:Yeah I don't think I'd get very much mileage throwing out a 30" tape from my NDK and Interceptors for their shunt, then "take it back" and move just into range of their 24" guns.

If the wording of the shunt move allowed you to take it back that would be hilarious.

sounds like a new strategy to me

His point was that Teleport Shunt is worded exactly like Tank Shock. You do a shunt 'instead of moving'.

Smitty0305 wrote:

Sekminara wrote:Great battle reports. Your tenacity when it comes to this massive project is inspiring. Keep up the good work.

That business with the tank-shocking is a little shady though. Even if your opponent did slip in a couple of less-than-honest moves himself. It was my understanding that you either declare a tank shock, or a move. Disallowing a player from measuring a move then declaring a tankshock.

I feel as if that would be the equivalent of measuring the "movement" of an unit to determine the range from its target to fire a weapon.

I can measure 24" for my tank, choose not to move, and then know my Shuriken Cannons are in range.
I would call that a smart tactic, and every good player uses measurments from other phases to know ranges/distances.

I was not aware that this was acceptable. Sounds a bit like gaming the system to me, but then again I suppose ethical behaviour isn't a pre-req for wargaming. Thanks for clearing that point up, I won't get caught by surprise (and get into a silly argument) if anyone at my local store decides to use that particular tactic.

Sekminara wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Sekminara wrote:Great battle reports. Your tenacity when it comes to this massive project is inspiring. Keep up the good work.

That business with the tank-shocking is a little shady though. Even if your opponent did slip in a couple of less-than-honest moves himself. It was my understanding that you either declare a tank shock, or a move. Disallowing a player from measuring a move then declaring a tankshock.

I feel as if that would be the equivalent of measuring the "movement" of an unit to determine the range from its target to fire a weapon.

I can measure 24" for my tank, choose not to move, and then know my Shuriken Cannons are in range.
I would call that a smart tactic, and every good player uses measurments from other phases to know ranges/distances.

I was not aware that this was acceptable. Sounds a bit like gaming the system to me, but then again I suppose ethical behaviour isn't a pre-req for wargaming. Thanks for clearing that point up, I won't get caught by surprise (and get into a silly argument) if anyone at my local store decides to use that particular tactic.

Yea your right its a really really gray line. Im not saying intentionally do this, but im saying it happens alot of the time.

Tank A is Parallel with Tank B. Tank A is in Range, so Tank B is in range. Is that pre measuring or being smart?
Tank A is behind Tank B, a tanks length. A Tank is 7" Long. Tank B is in range by 2". Tank A is not in range, and shoots at something else. Is that pre measuring or being smart?

There is a tank that howling banshees get out off. The banshees move 6". The Tank shoots at a squad the bashees want to assault. The Banshees are at the 6" line, the enemy squad is at the 13" Line. The Eldar player knows he needs to fleet and doesnt shoot pistols. Is that pre measuring, or being smart?

There is a Farseer in a Jetbike Council. The Farseer Casts doom on a unit, and he sees that he is 7" away. Because doom isnt a shooting attack, the farseer and his council assault a closer, but less rewarding unit. Is this pre measuring, or being smart?

My Point is, that during a game there are alot of indicators to know how close/far you are. Even if you dont purposly do it, you can figure out charge/shooting ranges pretty easily based on other measurments. Is this cheating? Or is it being aware? I would personally argue that its being aware, but others would argue that its cheating.

Just tossing my 2 cents in:

1) Measuring your furthest distance you can move to see where you could go, perfectly legal. Nothing stated that you must declare what distance you are going to move before you move.

2) Measuring your furthest distance you can move then deciding to tank shock/ram, clearly against the spirit of the tank shock/ramming rules. There is a reason it states to point the vehicle is a direction then declare the distance you will move.

3) On the Energy field thing, I don't have my dex on me but 99% sure the energy field wording clearly states that "shooting attacks" are reduced to str 8.

Grats on third btw

pretre wrote:I'm going to let it go after this post, but...

I don't care if it mattered or not or if 6th edition gives out free booze and hummers. I do care about playing the game correctly.

I don't know you well pretre but I know every man well enough to know this is bull sh@t. Lets hope for booze and hummers and settle for clear and concise rules! ..... Seriously this makes me laugh every time I scroll by it

BlueDagger wrote:Just tossing my 2 cents in:

1) Measuring your furthest distance you can move to see where you could go, perfectly legal. Nothing stated that you must declare what distance you are going to move before you move.

2) Measuring your furthest distance you can move then deciding to tank shock/ram, clearly against the spirit of the tank shock/ramming rules. There is a reason it states to point the vehicle is a direction then declare the distance you will move.

3) On the Energy field thing, I don't have my dex on me but 99% sure the energy field wording clearly states that "shooting attacks" are reduced to str 8.

Grats on third btw

It says "Ranged" attacks lol, so there is an arguement either way.

Red Corsair wrote:

pretre wrote:I'm going to let it go after this post, but...

I don't care if it mattered or not or if 6th edition gives out free booze and hummers. I do care about playing the game correctly.

I don't know you well pretre but I know every man well enough to know this is bull sh@t. Lets hope for booze and hummers and settle for clear and concise rules! ..... Seriously this makes me laugh every time I scroll by it

Wait, I was told by a redshirt that there would be booze and hummers. Is that not true?????


Or are you saying I dont like to play by the rules?


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A ram attack is clearly not a ranged attack.

Mmmm this whole argument reminds me of guys who premeasure using their forearms... Needless to say I frown upon both, but meh.

pretre wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

pretre wrote:I'm going to let it go after this post, but...

I don't care if it mattered or not or if 6th edition gives out free booze and hummers. I do care about playing the game correctly.

I don't know you well pretre but I know every man well enough to know this is bull sh@t. Lets hope for booze and hummers and settle for clear and concise rules! ..... Seriously this makes me laugh every time I scroll by it

Wait, I was told by a redshirt that there would be booze and hummers. Is that not true?????


Or are you saying I dont like to play by the rules?


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A ram attack is clearly not a ranged attack.

Well its an attack, From a Distance, so I dont see why it isnt rofl.

If its not a ranged attack then what kind of attack is it?

And round 2 begins.




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Zid wrote:Mmmm this whole argument reminds me of guys who premeasure using their forearms... Needless to say I frown upon both, but meh.

Measuring with body parts is where Ill draw the line.

Good report! Thanks and cool to read the end. It did seem from this report that your opponent may have attempted some shenanigans (the tank shock thing seemed really strange), but overall looked like a pretty good matchup. One of those times when taking the side with more objectives definitely outweighs the advantage of second move. Good choice on your part.

Rules-question wise, I'm 100% on the same page as Pretre and Hulk on these. But that's not the point of the thread.

Looking forward to the rest!