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Am I the only one who remembers the days when GW uses to advertise other manufacturers? As Paladium used to say, its your game, we wont send the rules police round if you want to play it different to how we wrote it.

Maybe its just because I only play at home or with friends, but I have no problem with 3rd party models. mind you I do agree bad models hurt the hobby.

If however GW keep hitching the prices up, that will hurt them more as people are forced to consider alternatives from inventive conversions, to 3rd party suppliers.

Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

Yeah,
Agamemnon, Sorry I ment non character units missing models?

Void Raven
Griffon
Colossus
Hydra
non-BR Dethkoptas

Flash gitz
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...

tyranids are missing a few...
shrikes... (warriors with wings.)
harpy
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings)
Parasite of mortrex
Ymgarl genestealers
Mycetic spore pod
.... And the doom and leaper? Named characters?


What else??

Panic...

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

There is no gurantee they'll use Whitedwarf in that way. Tau and any other codex that hasn't been updated should be concerned because without the release waves GW is limited in what new units are included in the codex by how much they can release with the codex, eg 4 box sets and ~4 blisters. This means relative to books more recently updated, newer codices will tend to have less.

Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

aka_mythos wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

There is no gurantee they'll use Whitedwarf in that way. Tau and any other codex that hasn't been updated should be concerned because without the release waves GW is limited in what new units are included in the codex by how much they can release with the codex, eg 4 box sets and ~4 blisters. This means relative to books more recently updated, newer codices will tend to have less.

If the 4 new units provide good gameply aspects, it's ok with me.

However, if you have a full codex (like the tau one), with only a hand full of good units/tactics,
and the rest is totally useless, it's a shame...

So I preffer less units at the beginning (in one wave), but more regular updates,
especially because of new rulebooks, new army releases and the like.

It's simply impossible to balance one release for ever.
But to neglect it for ever is a whole nother thing..

(Guess why my avatar is a space marine now... XD)

12thRonin wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

You don't "need" to carry that stuff as you have a choice whether or not to stick with the codex or use add ons from other official sources. If you don't plan on buying a Stormtalon, you don't need to carry the rules with you. If you do plan on buying one, you can always cut out the page or print out an uploaded gif or official uploaded GW pdf of the rules to fold and carry in your codex. Even at the height of 3rd edition optional rules, you never had to "carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game". You *CHOSE* whether or not to use VDR, TAR, TVR, DW, variant army list, or any other acronym accessory from the yearly compendiums or WD.

This solution (if the rumor is true) isn't perfect but is a nice compromise. People who don't want years of famine between codex releases get additional units whereas people who want official models available at codex release get them. This is at the "cost" of carrying a few extra pieces of paper with you. When you've got a 1,500-3,000pt army plus rulebook plus codex plus carrying case, the extra 1/16 of an ounce is not a significant hindrance.

warboss wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

You don't "need" to carry that stuff as you have a choice whether or not to stick with the codex or use add ons from other official sources. If you don't plan on buying a Stormtalon, you don't need to carry the rules with you. If you do plan on buying one, you can always cut out the page or print out an uploaded gif or official uploaded GW pdf of the rules to fold and carry in your codex. Even at the height of 3rd edition optional rules, you never had to "carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game". You *CHOSE* whether or not to use VDR, TAR, TVR, DW, variant army list, or any other acronym accessory from the yearly compendiums or WD.

This solution (if the rumor is true) isn't perfect but is a nice compromise. People who don't want years of famine between codex releases get additional units whereas people who want official models available at codex release get them. This is at the "cost" of carrying a few extra pieces of paper with you. When you've got a 1,500-3,000pt army plus rulebook plus codex plus carrying case, the extra 1/16 of an ounce is not a significant hindrance.

Choosing to or not is irrelevant. That's the reason GW gave for doing away with it.

I can see the benefits of this and the drawbacks.

The plus to this is they will be banking on the sudden "My army is updated" sales. I could actually see a good opportunity to offer a package deal of 1 codex and 2 NEW units for X amount of dollars.

Unfortunately after the big all-in-one army release, and if you don't play more then one army, you wait...If they really are going through with this then I hope all of the codices get updated between editions. When I played it drove me nuts to watch several armies get updates, more then one even, while others didn't.

I also have to wonder what kind of pressure this puts on the developers to meet the deadline?

It has been a while since I have looked at any of the 40k books, but how unified are they? This aspect could make a big difference. When I played the codices were not very unified and so special work was done for every one because everyone was like a whole different rule book. But if they were more unified it would make getting the codices out to the public easier.

Hi H.B.M.C, I usually really like (and generally agree) with your posts, but I feel with this one you're dropping into a 'one or the other' or 'black / white' kind of half-full analysis. You seem to suggest that GW is ditching a policy of 'wave releases' for a policy of 'all at once with the codex', which is a bit simplistic, I think.

This could be a 'all minis on codex release PLUS waves through White Dwarf' model, which would be a winner for everyone if done rightly (caveat - I've no confidence in GW doing anything rightly, but let's hope in a 'glass half full' mood), and maybe GW have gone with this route?

So, GW release every codex model in one go with the codex, and release say, 3 codices per year. They then also release additional models/minis/good stuff for all/any codices throughout the year with rules in White Dwarf. They then release a 'just-in-time-for-Aunty-Betty's present' December collation of all WD rules, plus errata and FAQs and lots more fluff and pics of cool minis.

GW wins several times over: with the initial codex release and all minis, and the subsequent (and sustained sales) pitch for them; with White Dwarf sales (which, if you think must be much more profitable on a per unit basis than the BRB or a codex, and it's out every month, so if they do it right they get big profits every month; and with the annual collated rules/FAQs/Minis/fluff publication.

Hobbyists also win many times over: with all minis available with the codex (for use off the shelf or for conversion), with a great and meaningful monthly hobby magazine going back to its heyday and not just being a glorified sales catalogue, and with a cool end of year collation.

Anyone who whinges about carrying around more than just the codex when extra rules are concerned should check the wikipedia entry for 'photocopier', then the website despair.com for some very funny but self reflecting content...

Love your writing normally H.B.M.C. (especially as someone trying to promote 40k roleplay through the FFG books in random parts of the world: I've managed to set groups up in Cambodia, DR Congo, and I'm working on Indonesia as we speak!), but here I'd say maybe give GW a bit of slack, and consider this might be a great plan for 40k, WD, and hobbyists, and all that together means more players and more fun for everyone - which is why I am part of the 40k universe, and so why I'm happy about this rumour.

Or am I being wildly and improbably optimistic?

PS - if you're passing through Indonesia and fancy a game of Rogue Trader (or even D&D - heresey, I know, but true!), then let me know!

Panic wrote:
This has got to be better than seeing all the terribad conversions people come up with because they can't wait for a official release.

It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

What hobby are you a part of? Conversion used to be one of the celebrated aspects of the "Games Workshop Hobby." The whole Ork looting mechanic and slapshod aesthetic of that line was designed to encourage conversions.

And what does "Tarnishing the hobby" mean? If I show up with a home conversion (of which I am incredibly proud) or a Chapterhouse model, that somehow soils the hobby?

I think I'll pass on your version of the hobby if you don't mind, as fun as it sounds, it seems a bit pretentious to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

I fail to understand why this is bad. it seems GW can't do anything right. They release models in waves, they get flak. They release everything at once, they get flak. Which is stupid. They have to have some kind of release model, but if either is bad, then they can't release anything.

Like I said. I completely fail to see anything bad with the single release model. So what if there's 6-7 years until some new models come out? You already have the entire codex to choose from. Even how it is currently, you are limited to the models in the codex. With the single release model, you can actually make a whole army the way you want it, instead of having to proxy half the list because there are no models for it. Plus, you buy a model which is a reasonable proxy of a unit that has no model, but the actual unit you bought has little or no in-game-value, THEN they release a new kit which includes the models you've been proxying. Now you have to buy that unit all over, leaving you with having bought a bunch of models you don't need or even want.

Again. There are NO drawbacks to us as customers with the single release model. Anyone who says differently are just whiners who love to QQ about how horrible those bullies at GW are. Tsk tsk. Get a different hobby, or move on to a different game if you think GW are so terrible. I bet you had to dig far and deep to even find this weak excuse to whine about something GW did.

CT GAMER wrote:
1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

LOL! Because Warhammer Fantasy Battle has nothing whatsoever in common with LOTR...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

So now we're going from "GRR, GW WAVE RELEASES LEAVE TONS OF MODELS OUT OF THE BOOKS" to "GRR, GW SPLASH DOESNT LEAVE THE PLAYER INTERESTED"?

Classy, Dakkanauts. Classy.


I, for one, am excited that I won't have to worry about having to convert things out of necessity. I'll still convert stuff if it's expensive/uncool or whatever, but at least I'm not forced to do so.

In the end I don't think changing the release is going to change much for GW. They have already ran off so many players that all that is left is a few vocal die-hards and hobbyists. While GWs IP is going strong their miniatures games have started to decline. We may see a day where GW is no longer in the miniature game market and firmly ensconced in the video game, movie, and/or tv markets.

The big thing as a former Nid player was waiting for so long for models since I didn't like the look of the 3rd party models. I waited so long that when the finally released the models this past winter/spring I just said forget it and sold my army off. frustration for so long without any news until they were about to release them really soured me on them.

For this new release strategy to work they need to do what other game systems do and communicate with it's supporters. If they don't it will fail.

timd wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

LOL! Because Warhammer Fantasy Battle has nothing whatsoever in common with LOTR...

Or CT could be talking about, you know, the actual LOTR game that GW makes

I just wish they'd release surprise new units for each army and include a codex addition sheet in the box with the kit. Sure, they won't sell a new book from it but it keeps things fresh and gets people interested in otherwise stagnant armies without having to redo the whole lot.

I'd love to see random new stuff appear. The flyers for example should be the start of something bigger. New models and concepts launched and rules in WD perhaps. Isn't that what WD was for anyway?

Druidic wrote:Am I the only one who remembers the days when GW uses to advertise other manufacturers? As Paladium used to say, its your game, we wont send the rules police round if you want to play it different to how we wrote it.

That's because GW used to be a distributor of those games. I had copies of Runequest editions that were done for GW even though they had nothing to do with the rules.

As far as I am aware 40k is still a garage game where you can add in your own units etc. I think people mistakenly take WD as the gospel on all things 40k and tournaments don't help break the mould because they need a framework to operate in and for some they even restrain the core rules. Look at the ETC rules for Warhammer Fantasy.

If this rumour is true then I think it stems from two things, first as others have mentioned the alternative companies are making a killing based on GWs crap release schedule. Second I stopped buying codecies because I knew that many of the cool models wouldn't be released for ages if at all. When I came back to 40k it was on the basis of the Space Wolves codex and we got well and truly shafted on that front. While I support the idea of garage 40k I prefer to have the citadel figures and GW's schedule has had a direct impact on my willingness to buy their products.

I remember that far back, but it's shrouded in the mists of time....

There were some good non-gw things in WD back then IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Fugly as hell, and ludicrously hard to keep together on the shelf, let alone in a bag.

Superglue, microtorch, zipkicker and duct tape on standby..

I've had 5 over the years, and never liked ANY of them...

I love nids but not even those are safe when other companies publish superb minis every month... 6 years gap means game over IMO. Totally out of touch with the collective nature of miniatures, but maybe good for the short therm and discardable clientelle.

All changes to the news and releases system short after starting at the block outs even in GD's is purelly ridiculous in the age of information... Good luck with riding that horse GW.

SgtSixkilla wrote:

I fail to understand why this is bad. it seems GW can't do anything right. They release models in waves, they get flak. They release everything at once, they get flak. Which is stupid. They have to have some kind of release model, but if either is bad, then they can't release anything.

Like I said. I completely fail to see anything bad with the single release model. So what if there's 6-7 years until some new models come out? You already have the entire codex to choose from. Even how it is currently, you are limited to the models in the codex. With the single release model, you can actually make a whole army the way you want it, instead of having to proxy half the list because there are no models for it. Plus, you buy a model which is a reasonable proxy of a unit that has no model, but the actual unit you bought has little or no in-game-value, THEN they release a new kit which includes the models you've been proxying. Now you have to buy that unit all over, leaving you with having bought a bunch of models you don't need or even want.

Again. There are NO drawbacks to us as customers with the single release model. Anyone who says differently are just whiners who love to QQ about how horrible those bullies at GW are. Tsk tsk. Get a different hobby, or move on to a different game if you think GW are so terrible. I bet you had to dig far and deep to even find this weak excuse to whine about something GW did.

To be fair, I don't think its the wave style releases themselves that people don't like, more the fact that GW keeps us utterly in the dark over what will be in a later wave and when it will happen. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy if they said something along the lines of "The following units will receive models in July" when they release a new book.

I haven't minded the wave releases nor did I mind the splash releases. What I did mind was not knowing what units were going to be made for each codex. GW creates a niche for those companies who are willing to make those models since not all of us are conversion capable. The problem comes back to communication again. If we get a splash release of all/most of the units, we still won't know about until a week before hand. I saw nothing in the OP about changing that part of the method. I'd also rather not see WD released units as GW has a tendancy to yank those at a moment's notice as opposed to balancing them. I had an armored company when they came out and I bought FW Rhinox riders. Both were disallowed and I'd rather not go through that again.

Ascalam wrote:I remember that far back, but it's shrouded in the mists of time....

There were some good non-gw things in WD back then IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Fugly as hell, and ludicrously hard to keep together on the shelf, let alone in a bag.

Superglue, microtorch, zipkicker and duct tape on standby..

I've had 5 over the years, and never liked ANY of them...

lets not forget the price tag eh lads

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Oh sweet Emporer, those things suck to put together and worse, balance. They are weirdly balanced and fall over all the time and break. The little bastards. Making things worse, the AoBR ones are hard to modify the core parts to make them more variable.

I'm going to reiterate my point that the GW has pretty much completed it's core range now. Some of it might look dated but it's 90% all there.

The next time a codex comes out (with the exception of Sisters of Battle maybe), they'll only have to release models for the new units. The wave system isn't really needed anymore in my eyes.

I have to say, I would prefer the rumor to be true. Having everything out at once would help me plan out purchases. Having at least a picture of everything in the book could also solve some early problems (oh thats how big a warshrine is). Having everything out at once that is going to get put out also solves the mystery of whether a model will get done at all. I have had my marine army since the Armageddon book, and I have never owned a Whirlwind. There can always be something more for me to buy, especially if 40k goes back to percentage instead of the FOC. This policy also wouldn't prevent later releases of new models and rules (like the fliers) or resculpts (releasing an old box with a new codex and putting out the new one in a few months when ready, I think the IG tanks had this treatment last time). Assuming there is no reduction of models for the lifespan of a codex, I don't see the negatives of this rumor out weighing the positives for me.

Panic wrote:Yeah,
Agamemnon, Sorry I ment non character units missing models?

Tough. I can only answer the actual question you ask, not the ones you intend to ask.

Kazwulf wrote:Making things worse, the AoBR ones are hard to modify the core parts to make them more variable.

Umm... if you say so.