Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Panic wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...
Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish, if they had half a back bone they would just make thier own games and fan base.
like zombicide or sedation wars or super dungeon explore.

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.


Panic...

But the reverse is also true (if anything MORE common) in that we now have choice. If i dont like GW's tervigon, i can grab another. Same for thunderwolves and space marines. Most companies would up their game and produce better cheaper miniatures to compete. Competition is always better for the consumer. (GW just has to realise they have competition)

Jayce_The_Ace wrote:If this turns out to be true, then maybe it is to try & stifle third party companies from producing conversion parts or full models, but I doubt it would work, after all, look at the Storm Raven conversion kit from Chapterhouse - it doesn't make a new version, just makes the model look a lot better.

Perhaps though, the real reason is based on the perceived customer behaviour. Maybe they figure if little Johnny isn't going to be in it for long, then release all the shinies at once, get all his (or mum & dads) cash, then who cares? He'll be gone soon, no need to release anything else. For anyone who does stick around longer, they'll get bored with nothing new coming out for years, so start a new army when it's released - or probably according to GW they will anyway.

Certainly have to agree with the 'pendulum' analogy, GW just can't seem to find the m middle ground on anything.

IF they are doing this, this would be the reason why I imagine. There were plenty of thunderwolves out there for a long time and one guy I knew spent over $200 getting indie manufacturer ones that looked great. Not to mention those tyranid drop pods too, though I'm not sure if we even have proper models for them right now.

Either way I'm in favor of this. I rarely buy new models to "try" them when they're finally released. I usually just proxy the things that there aren't models for and buy new stuff as I add variety to my army or discover new cheese metagame. New CSM mechanic demon engine flyer dragon thing on day 1? Yes please.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes, I realise I'm regurgitating something from TacoBell (usually it's the other way around), but I figure this one could be important, assuming it is true:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Assuming this is true, it really highlights how GW's approaches everything as if it were a big pendulum, and are incapable of finding a middle ground. Single release cycles, like what we had in 3rd/4th were bad for the reasons stated above - you got your big splash, and then you got nothing for 6-7 years. Wave releases, as conducted by GW, were also bad, as you never knew what was coming, when it was coming and - worst of all - if it was coming. If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

The middle ground is takes the "everything gets a model" approach from the One Release method and the "waves" approach from the waves method that gives players a steady stream of releases over the course of the first 24-ish months after their Codex comes out. Everything comes out, so you have a model for everything, but not everything hits at once, maintaining interest over time, and generating more interest as people "join in" during the second, third and fourth waves (for example).

But no. Let's just shove that big 'ol pendulum as hard as we can and put it back on the spash-7 years of nothing-splash method. But that's typical when you think abou it - short term profits over long-term growth is a hallmark of Kirbyland.


And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

Look likes new BUSINESS STRATEGY is to get all models in one shot to stop GW gamers buying cheaper alternatives once they get feed up with waiting TO GW release it.
Like It!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.


Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over at least for the next 2 or 3 codices from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Fixed that part up for you HBMC, I figure you might've missed it.

Chaos Space Marines released: Everything out at once.

Dark Angels released: Everything out at once.

Smurf Marines released: Everything out at once.

Eldar or Tau released: Sudden change back to the wave system, something hugely interesting to players like Harlequin Solitaire, Exodites, or Orca Dropship on hold for years.

Seriously irritated with GW's release methods for product. The last time there was something to motivate me to go into a GW store, Phantom Lord's off topic board was still active.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...

GW doesn't "deserve" anything. They write rules as advertisement for their models. If they decide to drag their feet on releasing something there's nothing wrong with players finding a subsitute. Saying we're obligated to buy GW models to play the game is like saying you're obligated to buy the manufacturer's ink when you're refilling your printer.

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

yeah,
@H.B.M.C. I think it's odd that puppets want to release fancy razorback turrets and sell to GWs customers. They are not FW.
Why not invent your own tanks and game and sell those.
Once you have your game out there and selling it If people want those turrets for their army they'll have them anyway.

But I have no real issue with buying non GW models and parts to convert up a model.
The leader of my grot army rides a 3rd party track unit because it's cool...
What's the matter with you? never seen a hypocrite before??


I think IMO it's very easy to see when someone is trying to cut in on someone elses IP and consumer base.
And I find it shamefull.

---

With codex releases
I'd like to see new codexs take the existing units and tweak almost all of them.
Once all existing units are buffed/nerfed to the benifit of everyone add a few units that are both sexy but also more importantly open up new army builds.

ArbitorIan wrote:I've said this before but I'm not really in favour of a policy of GW releasing a model for everything in the Codex. The number of kits released for an army is limited by production factors, but the number of units in a Codex isn't. If the policy is to link the two, then we'll only see shorter, duller codexes, since units will (presumably) not be included unless there is a model kit planned.

We lose nothing by having extra conversion-only units in the codex, we gain versatility and fluff, GW still gets product sales from converters.

Converters gonna Convert...
They dont need unreleased units to do that, just something the don't like, like the ork buggy.
Or a unique unit/army idea... (omg wont a Men in Black imperial guard army look cool!!!)

If the majority of the new codex is new fluff and rules tweaks then the codex cylce can be done quicker.
With surprise releases like the ork bombers/ SM talon/ night spinner.

Holding onto some units also wont really hurt a codex. imagine if the necron scythes were never in the codex... it would have still been an excellent codex, but since we would have no idea they were coming the refreshing new units would bring life to the codex again.

then in three years (shorter cycle... I can dream) both codexs are renewed and the scythe/bomber/talon/spinner are now included in the codex plus everythings tweaked again (to balance the meta game??) plus two or three new units.

Panic...

BBC News wrote:...Games Workshop's executives say they don't do media interviews, preferring to focus on their hobbyists. But CEO Mark Wells e-mails me about the claim of price exploitation. "That would go against everything we stand for. It's just not in our nature," he writes.

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

whatever the reason for this new strategy, I approve. It could even speed up the turnover of armies - instead of having a month allocated to "Space Marine Finecast releases" or "Tyranid wave 3", everything can just come out with the codex, freeing up the schedule - because GW would never let a month go by with nothing to release.

Feel kind of sorry for the store staff though, a new army release is normally a time for hectic rearranging and trying to find space for all the new stuff, add to that the fact you have to squeeze in a whole new range as well as store the old/replaced stock out back..it's gonna get messy.

As for third parties, I like 'em. GW are the ones who decided that they'd release a codex (several, in fact) with major options outright missing from the range, what the hell did they expect would happen? people would wait around until GW's decreed time of Tervigonning? Any idiot could have forseen that people would make their own, and might sell those to others. Welcome to capitalism, GW, this is how it works - you create demand for something, and don't supply? someone else will, and then you're going to arrive late to a market you created.

This is a side effect of the whole GW Hobby nonsense, a particularly insidious form of corporate groupthink that convinces people that GW exists in a vacuum: GW games being played using GW models painted by GW paints and nobody else can encroach upon this magnificent bubble universe. Why bother factoring in third party actions? other miniature companies won't be making Triarch Stalkers or Tervigons or Tomb Blades because they are not The GW and therefore how could they affect The GW Hobby?

But oh, wait, they have, and people are buying them, and we have no contingency because none of us are familiar with the concept of Free Market Economics...

By and large, the GW versions of units where there were third party versions available have been excellent anyway. the tervigon's great, the Triarch stalker is fantastic (and also MASSIVE, I don't think any of the 3rd party versions correctly estimated the scale). the Tomb blades are ok - I don't like the GW or the puppets war versions, so I cant really judge there, and the Canoptek constructs are fantastic.

You win a market by either being First, Cheapest or Best. GW could easily be First and Best by dropping the wave strategy, and the only reason they haven't been First is due to a situation of their own making (And they're still doing it! Forgeworld are no longer selling the MkIIb Land Raider kit, making the Chapterhouse one the only version on the market).

As long as they can keep a reasonable release schedule, I'd be happy with this. As for now, I am not terribly impressed by the White Dwarf releases.

Panic wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.

Please, as if GW is the victim in all of this. If they had bothered to release the Tyranid waves in a timely manner then the whole Tervigon thing could've been avoided. But no, GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that.

Thing is, GW has shown they are capable of releasing units from a codex in a timely manner (ref. DE and Necrons), being able to keep a customer interested in the army for a good length of time.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

TBD wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

Clearly reading is more of an issue for you, but don't let that stop you. We all know how you like to control things while holding court.

My point (I thought that it was clear) was that having all units available for that 6-7 year period will allow you to fully play that army for that hole period. If you want half now, with a bit later and maybe if we decide its the right time the last bit in X years you only seem to be perpetuating the notion that there is deliberately limited value in each codex. Having every thing from the get go seems like the ideal solution, though I do note ArbitratorIans very good point on production possibly impacting on codex options. That said unless it is a brand new army then most options will have been created, I would suggest it is more likely to result in existing kits being reused.

TBD wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.


Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

Ah, this basically. Well said.

yeah,

Lordhat wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

Agreed I'm looking forward to seeing how this release schedule works out.

,

Grimtuff wrote:... GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that...

I agree, If you leave your self open to parasites then you shouldn't be surprised when they start to suck on your blood and irritate you.

At least now it looks like GW is starting to cut them off.

Panic...

I like the idea of releasing all the models they are making for a codex all at once, for several reasons. First, you can save up for one big purchase and get everything you want all in one go.

More importantly, to me though, you know for sure when it's "safe" to buy 3rd party alternate models or scratchbuild your own. So long did I straddle the fence on the Puppetswar wraiths, on the Cylon raider, etc because I didn't know when or even IF GWS was ever going to release a model. So that will be done.

I'd prefer, much like the flyers release, that they release a few new models now and then with their rules being up in a copy of White Dwarf which will sell out almost immediately and make illegal scans the most reliable source for free on their website, like FW does with their experimental rules. Seems like it works for FW, right?

lord_blackfang wrote:

TBD wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

I understand, but I don't think that will be a problem.

A lot of new models (BT, Tau, etc) are said to already be waiting in the warehouses until new rulebooks are finished. GW isn't going to have months go by without releasing new models, so this new strategy would imply that new models' release comes with a new book also.

notprop wrote:So the sky's still falling then feller.

How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

lord_blackfang wrote:

TBD wrote:The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

That's correct, thank you. GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

Charax wrote:
You win a market by either being First, Cheapest or Best. GW could easily be First and Best by dropping the wave strategy, and the only reason they haven't been First is due to a situation of their own making (And they're still doing it! Forgeworld are no longer selling the MkIIb Land Raider kit, making the Chapterhouse one the only version on the market).

Eh? The FW MKIIb kit is still available

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions/MkIIb-LAND-RAIDER.html

AlexHolker wrote:GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

There's also a third choice, as ArbitorIan mentions: Kit not going to be done in time? Drop it from the codex.

ah, must have just been a glitch when I tried to look then

The parasitical nature of 3rd party bitz makers, or not, probably deserves it's own thread, which is here.

I do not understand. How is "release everything with the codex" bad for players?

Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

It's the same amount of models, only all at once, not spread across the years. If you like waves so much, just buy half of the models when codex drops, then wait a year, buy 2 more types of units, then wait another year, etc. Or this is totally impossible and you need GW to rule you and in the darkness bind you to achieve this schedule?

Personally I thought for a while that on some point GW should stop the waves thing, because it should cost them significant money having more and more 3rd-party companies jumping in with "cyber beetles", "cyber anthropods" and other such replacements for their foolishly missing codex entries.

yeah,

lord_blackfang wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

There's also a third choice, as ArbitorIan mentions: Kit not going to be done in time? Drop it from the codex.

... and release it in WD a year later.

Panic...

I'd question whether GW even can release everything at once. That would mean roughly doubling the amount of new plastic kits for every army release, which is a non-trivial change.

And what about all the armies who still have holes in them going into 6E? Can we expect no Void Raven or Colossus until those army books get remade, presumably sometime in the early 20s?

My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

yeah,

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.
No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.
Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I can see the rules appearing first in WD and a month later appearing on the website.
ala the Night Spinner

Panic...

Online rules updates would be great, but I don't see it happening for a game marketed towards 12-year olds.