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gorgon wrote:

Therion wrote:GW's wave system has been flawed from the start because of lack of information on when and if a second or third wave will or will not hit. If the choice is between that and getting everything that you will ever get in one massive release it's not really a choice at all. This is great news if it has any truth in it. I've always despised the notion that your codex has some seemingly crucial units that don't have models for them and you don't know whether you should spend a lot of money and effort in converting models for them because GW might or might not release official models for them in the near or far future.

That's it exactly. There was no natural flow or pattern to the release schedule...the releases were darts haphazardly thrown at a board. (The Tyranid darts missed the board and stuck in the wall, FYI.) The idea was fine, they just struggled with implementation.

Its true but it really carries the caveat that it means overall the codices will be accompanied with less, since they'd now be restricted by what they can produce for release any given month. 4 box sets and ~5 blisters as opposed to the much more that the armies that benefited from the wave system recieved. Armies like tau, eldar, and witchhunters are already behind the volume of options other books have, this just gurantees it stays that way.

Except that no where does it say that you have to have all the releases in one single month. IIRC new releases coinciding with a codex release were usually staggered across two months back in 3rd edition when this was last used. The WD article detailing the new book could simply mention that the releases that are due to hit in the second month. Even adding 40k and WHFB books together doesnt add up to a book every month so there is plenty of room to release new codex boxes over two months.

Are we sure about that though? Their production capacity is limited by what they can do in any given month, then couldn't they, say, delay a Codex by 3 months (an arbitrary number, but bear with me) and then release it along with 3 months worth of models?

I don't see how splash releases limit the amount of models.


And warboss is right. It needn't all be in a single month. Even during the wild times of 2nd Ed, when an Army Book or Codex came out there would be that month's releases, and then more releases for that book the very next month. If a lot was due out for that book, then more stuff in the third month.

I'm just wanting my fething storm troopers.

Kroothawk wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote: These days when they get rigid at GW they get really rigid. It seems to be the style since T. Kirby took tighter control of GW in all aspects of the business.

All praise the mighty Leader Kim Il Kirby!

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Are we sure about that though? Their production capacity is limited by what they can do in any given month, then couldn't they, say, delay a Codex by 3 months (an arbitrary number, but bear with me) and then release it along with 3 months worth of models?
I don't see how splash releases limit the amount of models.

And warboss is right. It needn't all be in a single month. Even during the wild times of 2nd Ed, when an Army Book or Codex came out there would be that month's releases, and then more releases for that book the very next month. If a lot was due out for that book, then more stuff in the third month.

You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

What warboss says is probably more likely... where one, one-and-a-half, maybe two months are spent supporting the codex at release. Some of these more recent codices though have had enough so as to warrent a now unreasonable 3 months worth of releases. I'm just saying that my concern is that a good number of the codices that await an update are ones that were already behind most of the more recently updated codex, before those were updated; as codices were updated the gap in volume of choices between space marines and races like Eldar and Tau only widened.... this change in release schedule only solidifies that gap. For example Eldar might need 3 months worth of releases just to keep up with the codices that are alreafy done but with only 2 months GW will have to weigh between a bunch of new stuff and reworking older models. Its kinda the same rationale that lead to the Chaos Dreadnought model being kept around for as many editions.

Does anybody really know what GW's production capacity is? Because at one time, somebody remarked early on during the Apocalypse hysteria that there were more Baneblades in the hands of gamers than there were in the entire Galaxy of the 41st Millennium. And it would result in more people actually buying a whole new army from GW new rather than picking 90% of it up on Ebay. (I'm guilty of that myself...) Some people just don't paint their armies, and they want to play with more than a 500 pt starter box right away.

Not in the strictest terms, but GW's production capacity is obviously sufficient to both release 10 new products a month while manufacturing replacement stock for older products sold. If production and revenue have a direct relationship, the minimum GW's capacity would have to be to keep its warehouse and stores filled would be the equivalent of producing 1.3M Attack on Black Reach boxes each year. The ability to add new products would imply a capacity exceeding that, I would guess no more than 10%.

UsdiThunder wrote:GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

Agreed... I've noticed that for me, if there is something new that I "want" I will buy it in the first two weeks or not at all, and so having that money immediately availble or not is crucial to whether enthusiasm falls to level headedness.

Panic wrote:yeah,

Lordhat wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

Agreed I'm looking forward to seeing how this release schedule works out.

,

Grimtuff wrote:... GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that...

I agree, If you leave your self open to parasites then you shouldn't be surprised when they start to suck on your blood and irritate you.

At least now it looks like GW is starting to cut them off.

Panic...

I can't understand why someone would argue that third party venders hurt GW. You do realize the CH tervigon kit required the purchase of GW's carnifex kit right? That means they helped GW sell carnifex kits which weren't selling after they got raped in the new dex. Now, everyone who made there own that I know has bought a new one because they like the kit. The same goes for Storm Ravens and the list continues. I think the term you are searching for is SYMBIOTIC relationship because it clearly isn't parasitic. Your claim that GW IP is original is also laughable.

I personally refuse to feel sympathy for a company that consistently releases armies without their best unit. SW, hey lets not make TWC their best new unit. Tyranids, hey lets not make a kit for our best new creatures, one that makes scoring units and the other provides ranged AT. Hey lets continue to fallow the lemmings and release Necrons without their wraiths or spyders, surely those units aren't the best. I'm waiting for tau to be released without a model for some new xenos that fixes their army rules lol. Seriously how can any one feel sympathy for a company that gets rich despite there inability to learn and stop making the same mistake.

I suppose that which system is better depends on what kind of collector you are. The wave system is better for painters and modellers; the one-release system is better for gamers.

Still, though, I don't really get why you'd rather have one release of 4 plastic kits than one release of 4 plastic kits and another release of 2 plastic kits later on...

Panic wrote:yeah,
This makes sense. release all the units you have models for with the codex.

But they didn't do that. There were army books that never got models for certain entries.

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Not true. Third party companies will always have models to produce because you can bet that there will be holes to fill in the codex's that will now be ignored for the entire span of the book's life, rather than for a limited period of time. I decided to wait for the official necron stalker, scythe, wraiths, spiders, and tomb blades, because I knew that they would likely come within a year of the codex release. In the future, if a big release happens and certain models are left out, people like me will go directly to third party companies for conversion bits and whole kits if need be for the models that GW ignores.

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

How is that bad? I don't want to wait 2 years to get a model for a unit I have been waiting for just to find it looks awful, I would rather see it when the codex is released so I can decide "that looks like gak I won't buy it."

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

aka_mythos wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

You're missing the larger point that GW is not simply releasing kits as they are finished being produced. They release kits when they fit into their sales schedule. GW has all kinds of backlog on kits ready for sale and just haven't been released yet. That's why we see rumors of finished kits sometimes years before release. Maybe the best example of this is the plastic daemon Prince, which was seen in publications and had leaked photos almost 2 years ahead of it's actual release.

another problem is flooding the market. Say 4 plastic kits come out, and a couple of characters. About 100-150 USD lets sayMost people can generally afford that, maybe a few more if they like one of the kits. But if they put out 8-10 new kits and 6 characters, that is getting in the range of 250-400 USD just for one of each kit, much less multiples. You overload customers, and split sales.

The previous system of making some mo0dels in the book, then adding a bunch of unit rules to follow up with models later is likely going to go away. Rules without units means other companies will exploit the gap and uncertainty to produce knockoffs.

I don't think we will see waves go away entirely though. I expect what we saw with Necrons. A first wave of models with the new book, and instead of unit entries with no models for a while, they already had models designedfor those models, with detailed art in the books. Then produce the models, but wait a few-six months for people to build their armies with the first wave models, buy multiples. There is still anticipation for the next wave due to the rules and art in the codex. Then when players have bought up the first wave, and have money available again, put out the second wave to get them to buy more, anddraw in new players with another spike of interest in the army.

Too many models at one time floods the market and reduces potential sales. Too long in between, with no preparation for the second wave, allows other companies to steal customers away with knockoffs. But the Necron approach seems what we will see in the future. One wavewith the book, a second wave already designed and produced or at least ready for production, but delayed to improve sales of the army in total.

Good news. sort of.
I like the fact that they are saying that Chaos is indeed coming out in yet another rumor. and it also makes sense to at least have pics of the new unit scupts. This will mitigate the third party market from making models that look just like the pics from the book, and pre-empting the release of GW models modelled after their own art work.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

How dare you HBMC, december is a very important month for GW. It's when they release all their army bundles/big box bundles that don't save you anything and 'hardsell' you on it so they can make up for the rest of the year.

Silly silly aussie. =oÞ

december is a very important month for GW. It's when they release all their army bundles/big box bundles that don't save you anything and 'hardsell' you on it so they can make up for the rest of the year.

It would be nice if people saved the criticism for when it is deserved. The bundle deals offered by GW last December had a roughly 35% discount built into them over buying their contents separately. One can hardly say that they "don't save you anything", that is a substantial discount which is why the ones for the two most popular model ranges sold out in a few days.

GW does a lot of things their customers don't like these days, like raising the price of the Land Raider by $8.25 US two years in a row (WTF?!?). There's plenty to criticize them about that is legitimate. The criticism over the December bundle deals based on last year's bundles, however, is not.

Agreed, there's enough reasons to complain about GW without making stuff up. The Megaforces were amazing deals.

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

Newabortion wrote:I'm just wanting my fething storm troopers.

How 'bout my Ogryns?

Cadaver wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

You're missing the larger point that GW is not simply releasing kits as they are finished being produced. They release kits when they fit into their sales schedule. GW has all kinds of backlog on kits ready for sale and just haven't been released yet. That's why we see rumors of finished kits sometimes years before release. Maybe the best example of this is the plastic daemon Prince, which was seen in publications and had leaked photos almost 2 years ahead of it's actual release.

First just because a design is completed and a mold is made doesn't mean they immediately start production. Fitting the manufacturing into the production schedule has been the reason for many codex delays and why we get a lot of conflicting rumored release dates. GW may have a backlog of things to produce but no company would waste its money manufacturing product without the window of a release date. It would be an improper use of short term financing and contribute to warehousing costs with zero return.

When you look at GW over the course of the year, do you think it's any coincidence that months with more than standard numbers of releases are preceded by months with fewer model releases, non-model, and low volumen items?-I don't.

I can't speak for other gamers, but never once have I wanted to buy a model, found out it was unavailable and thought to myself "Excellent, now I have something to look forward to!".

Scott-S6 wrote:

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

That and the Guard Collossus looks almost identical in the book to the Forge World Bombard, so you can probably discount that one too

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Bretts aren't alone here. Wood Elves, Daemonhunters, Necrons and Dark Eldar all had their turn at this.

Blood Angel player here. We had an update WD codex with amazing exploding Rhinos in it, which we got after a LONG TIME. So let me think, 3rd Ed was released December 1998, we then got a rubbish WD codex with limited options in June/July 2007, which is 8 and a half years later, before they even bothered to make us a proper codex in 2010.

Trust me, waiting 8 and a half years just so you can get amazing exploding Rhinos and to also learn you don't get Sanguinary Priests anymore as an option is like recieveing a kick to the groin. Very painful. I'm just glad we got our priests back in 2010.

yeah,
Scott-S6 never said it was terrible, just making the list.
I've tidyed it up with your links and removed the DeffKopters and added the colossus it's basically a bombard.

Missing Codex Non Character Units
Void Raven.
harpy
Mycetic spore pod
Penal Legion
Flash gitz <- there's only one
Crypteks <- theres only one and there are many types in the codex entry
jet bike warlocks and seers... <- not available riding jetbikes

Missing Codex Non Character Units available only via Forge world
Colossus(FW bombard)
Griffon
Hydra
Shrikes... (warriors with wings.)
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings)

I agree looking at this it's pretty good.
Is this it or are we missing anything?

Panic...

Tibbsy wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

That and the Guard Collossus looks almost identical in the book to the Forge World Bombard, so you can probably discount that one too

Gun looks similar, hull is not. Colossus is mounted on a Chimaera hull like the rest of the mobile artillery units. Bombard is on a Leman Russ hull.

Bubbalicious wrote:Im sorry to say this but its the most stupid whining i ever read...

You get everything at once, perfect! You can buy what you want from the start and dont have to proxy/make your own stuff for two years while you wait for it to come out.
Al the unit profiles are already in the codex so you already know what they do and what you want, only difference is you could now buy everything from the start if the rumor is true.

Its like whining about an army that has been out for two, three years that they already got al their minnies.so i wont start that army because i can buy everything for it and its not getting a new model....

I

THAT.