GW to turn off the wave machine!

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**Agamemnon2**

lord_blackfang wrote:Online rules updates would be great, but I don't see it happening for a game marketed towards 12-year olds.

Oh, I don't know about that. Today's 12-year-olds are more at home online than the grognards of the 20th century. Then again, GW itself isn't. A company that has to shut down its own forums because too many people were saying bad things about them.... awww, diddums

**Sigvatr**

Gogogo new (severely nerfed) GK codex!

Seriously though, if GW decides to force me buying a new codex every so often...

Yohoho, .pdf it is.

**aka_mythos**

The only failure of the waves of releases is GW's other big failure, a failure to communicate.

**H.B.M.C.**

warpcrafter wrote:As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

It's cool that the best you can do is insult me. It might be better to stay on topic... but that might just be my opinion.

Don't let me stop you though. Carry on attempting to turn this into something about me.

**garrapignado**

I prefer the new system, and I think is even better to GW.

If you release 2 units, I buy 2 units. Then you release another 2, so I buy another 2 different units: 4 in total.
If you release 4 units at once, I buy 3. Then, after two years, I feel I want to paint more, so I buy another 2 or 3. So, 5 or 6 in total. Everybody wins: I can choose from the beginning, and they sell more (at least to me).

And there is a good point for us painters and players: we have codices with pictures of many units, not just the initial wave. Every time I look at my CSM codex, I wish I could have some plastic daemon prince pictures, but no... there is just metal one.

**spitfire6x**

I think this is a really good idea. imo If everything has either pics in the codex or is reliesed with the codex. I can start to plan what I want to add to my existing army or plan a new army, knowing what i can get from GW, and knowing if I need to convert or look elsewhere for anything in the book I want to use but I know there will never be a model.
JUST because its reliesed doesnt mean I have the money to spoff on the day its reliesed but knowing its there i can add at my leasure.

For me this is the right direction to take

**ArbitorIan**

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

**Khornate25**

To be honest, this is a great thing for me. Why bother with the waiting ? Yeah, this mean you'll maybe get nothing for the next seven or eight year, but seriously, who buy a codex, read it and thinks Oh I'm so excited to wait for years before finally having these models I've read about but that GW was to lazy to make !
When I buy a codex or an army book, and that I'm not good at making conversion or doesn't want to spend money for it, I want all my units and characters to have their models to be avaible for me. The hobby is already expensive enough, I think we deserve not to have to wait for the models, even more since GW never tell us when they are to be released except two weeks prior. Seriously, there is nothing worse (or almost) than waiting without having an idea of how long you will wait. We already have hospitals for that.

**spaceelf**

It will be interesting to see if this rumor is true.

It would be a big change for GW, and would indicate to me that they are hurting.

**Kilkrazy**

ArbitorIan wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

For myself, I just substituted non-GW Models and I expect a lot of other players did too. That didn't help GW at all.

**Kroothawk**

6-7 years between releases? I play Dark Eldar, Sororitas and Wood elves! Ask your Grandpa if he remembers the last Wood Elf release!

"Dad, when will I get new miniatures for my army?" "Ask me again when you are married, son."

Does not releasing new miniatures for 7-11 years hinder other companies to do it in the meantime? No. And given the lack of feedback loops for sculpting (Dreadknight, Storm Raven, Tomb Blades), there will always be a market for alternatives.

**Vampirate of Sartosa**

Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

**lord_blackfang**

Kilkrazy wrote:
ArbitorIan wrote:
I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

How would it be any less harmful if those units didn't exist in the Codex at all?

**H.B.M.C.**

Personally I've never been all that bothered with the splash-long wait-splash method, but I have so many armies and never use the same list twice, so that puts me in the minority here. For others who only have one army, or are heavily into the tournament scene, I could see it breeding sterility.

Yeah, I know, 'breeding sterility'.

spaceelf wrote:It would be a big change for GW, and would indicate to me that they are hurting.

How d'ya figure that?

**DarthOvious**

TBD wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

This^^^

All this means now is that you get to choose what to buy when the release is made. The only downside is that you could end up waiting a wee bit longer for your codex release while they try and get the mini's all together.

**Bacms**

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

**-Loki-**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

All a change like this might mean is that everything they were going to make gets released at the same time, rather than over a period of time. It wouldn't suddenly mean that everything gets a model. So whether you waited two years for a Harpy or got it on the same day the 'Dex was out might mean nothing if they never intended to make a Harpy model in the first place.

Absolutely beats the wave system.

I dislike using third party options for majoy models. Bits and peices are fine, but when I only have the option of a third party model because I not only don't know what the GW model might look like, but that it might not even get a release, I get really irked off. The only reason I didn't end up with chapterhouse carnifexes with boobs was because financially I couldn't do it. Now there's a fantastic Tervigon and I don't have to, but I was seriously considering it (and the puppets war Tyrannofex).

Buying a codex, and while not seeing everthing right away, at least seeing pictures of the models in the codex means I can plan my purchases without needing to figure out if I can get a proxy model somewhere else.

I can see it hurting people that go out and buy a 3000pt army in a week then have nothing else to buy, but really, those people would be using third party models for stuff they couldn't get right away anyway, so wouldn't be buying many future releases.

**H.B.M.C.**

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'd question whether GW even can release everything at once. That would mean roughly doubling the amount of new plastic kits for every army release, which is a non-trivial change.

I don't think it's a matter of ability. I think it's a matter of time. Shifting production like this is possible, it just won't happen overnight. It will mean a longer delay - at least initially - between the current wave method and the new splash method, but once that method is up and running it should roll over normally.

TBD wrote:But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses...

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way...

My biggest concern with the wave release was never when something was going to come out, but if something was going to come out. For a while every army was like the Orks have always been - a Codex full of units and no real clue if something that wasn't released immediately was ever going to get a kit. I mean even basic examples, like the Chibi-Hawk, didn't come out for a while. It was highly probable that a model would come out, but we didn't know for sure. They say that knowing is half the battle. In GW's case, not knowing is the other half. It would suck to really like a unit only to find out that it ain't ever getting a model.

I don't want to go back to 2nd Ed, where you never knew when or if something was coming out. GW's wave system almost - almost - got us there again. The splash system removes that problem (or I'd hope it would - assuming they take a 'every Codex entry gets a model kit' approach, even if that involves modular/dual kits), but comes with its own problems of line stagnation. How important line stagnation is to you is a matter of personal opinion though.

**Brother SRM**

I know I'd rather get every option all at once than wait two+ years for a linchpin unit of my codex to get released. I fail to see how it's a bad thing. If GW wants to redo a model later on they can, and if they want to add a brand new unit then they can give White Dwarf a shade of usefulness and include it in there. The lines will stagnate to a degree, but it's better than wondering if and when something's coming like we do now.

**Void_walker**

Interesting.....has good and bad points if true.

Personally, I would like to see a wave over a few months to run with WD with the initial release being one big army box with everything in it for all the people that don't want to wait or who just like buying stuff.

**DarthOvious**

Charax wrote: But oh, wait, they have, and people are buying them, and we have no contingency because none of us are familiar with the concept of Free Market Economics...

Think I'll cast my own Iron Man model. You know, Marvel can't really have a problem with this since I'm operating under "free market economics".

To clarrify, even if Marvel did have a character from their IP that they didn't make a model of, it doesn't mean that any other Tom, Dick or Harry can make one instead without Marvel's permission. Sure they can release something "similar" but if you call it by the name Iron Man and he's red and yellow in a metal suit, then you're probably gonna get sued.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote: Please, as if GW is the victim in all of this. If they had bothered to release the Tyranid waves in a timely manner then the whole Tervigon thing could've been avoided. But no, GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that.

Thing is, GW has shown they are capable of releasing units from a codex in a timely manner (ref. DE and Necrons), being able to keep a customer interested in the army for a good length of time.

Sorry, but this doesn't change the fact that if you make a character and it's your intellectual property then no-one else can use that character without your permission. Like I said above, I can't go around making figure men of Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Spiderman, etc, etc, without Marvel getting a lawsuit together. Legally it's just not allowed. From what I heard, Chapterhouse, used the name Tervigon to sell their kits, which as we all know is what GW assigned to their characteristic IP. Morally you might not have a problem with it, but legally GW are OK here with what they did and they didn't do anything different from what any other company does. And that is protect their IP.

**UltraPrime**

Bacms wrote:
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Or it shows that Codexes will not be getting alot of new kits on release. At this point, most Codexes have most options, so when you discount what is already available, what are you left with? New options, which there may only be 3 or 4 of. Lets look at the last major release, Fantasy Empire. Everything from the army book (bar a character or two, I think) was available on release. But how many 'new' things were there? Just the usual amount.

**stormboy**

I wonder if GW will end up doing less codex/army book releases and spread them over a 6-8 week period instead?

That makes sense to me.

Also - are there any armies out there that need a complete model overhaul? Most armies (Sisters aside) have the basics already in place. I can't imagine new Ork boys or basic Marines released with the next Codex. The focus will be on new stuff. Which, for most armies, isn't going to be a lot.

Tau, Chaos, Eldar, Sister are probably the most difficult armies right now - because of the amount of kits involved that need updating.

**DarthOvious**

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

They already include apocalypse formations in WD, so I'm in favour of this to be honest. It will even pick up WD sales and actually give people a reason to buy it since its pretty much lacking nowadays.

**DaNewBoy**

I'm also not seeing a downside to this.

Unless this is just another, "OMG I hate anything and everything GW does" type deal?

If there is "nothing to buy" until the next codex is release, then I am relieved. This will actually make maintaining two or three different armies easier, imo.

**DarthOvious**

ArbitorIan wrote: I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

Hopefully they would make them available for download on there site. Of course whether they do that or not is a different question, but it would be a good way to solve this problem. Also you could just attach a few sheets with your codex and it wouldn't take up too much space. Like I said above though, I could see them doing the WD thing since they already release apocalypse formations using WD.

**lord_blackfang**

I already have enough problems convincing my opponents that my Q-workshop dice are fair and that my printed FAQs aren't forged. Not looking forward to printing new rules off the website.

**CT GAMER**

Oakenshield wrote:
Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm not defending GW per se, but your analogy is a big stretch:

1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

2. Being inspired by tropes and concepts and using them to write the background/look of a game setting that you then make original design models for is far different then someone hiding in the shadows trying to put out knock-off versions of those exact designs (copyrighted products) before the parent company does...

I don't really care enough either way to get hot and bothered over it personally, but a I stated: your assertion is a HUGE stretch...

**Vampirate of Sartosa**

Bacms wrote:
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

**-Loki-**

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:
Bacms wrote:
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect
Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

That's not a bad thing. Codices and army books are so bloated right now, there's already redundant units in them. The problem of GW being a miniatures company instead of a game company, they need new models in the book every edition. Books that had a release in 4th edition didn't need new units in 5th. Books that got a release in 5th not only don't need new units in 6th, but some could stand to lose a few as well. Books that have had a release every edition are getting ridiculous. This is where balancing issues tend to crop up, since the newer unit that made an old unit redundant tends to be a bargain simply to sell the model to people that already have the older model (good example - the Trygon and the Carnifex).

Not getting as many units on release, but getting them all? Yes please.