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Yes, I realise I'm regurgitating something from TacoBell (usually it's the other way around), but I figure this one could be important, assuming it is true:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Assuming this is true, it really highlights how GW's approaches everything as if it were a big pendulum, and are incapable of finding a middle ground. Single release cycles, like what we had in 3rd/4th were bad for the reasons stated above - you got your big splash, and then you got nothing for 6-7 years. Wave releases, as conducted by GW, were also bad, as you never knew what was coming, when it was coming and - worst of all - if it was coming. If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

The middle ground is takes the "everything gets a model" approach from the One Release method and the "waves" approach from the waves method that gives players a steady stream of releases over the course of the first 24-ish months after their Codex comes out. Everything comes out, so you have a model for everything, but not everything hits at once, maintaining interest over time, and generating more interest as people "join in" during the second, third and fourth waves (for example).

But no. Let's just shove that big 'ol pendulum as hard as we can and put it back on the spash-7 years of nothing-splash method. But that's typical when you think abou it - short term profits over long-term growth is a hallmark of Kirbyland.


And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over at least for the next 2 or 3 codices from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Fixed that part up for you HBMC, I figure you might've missed it.

So the sky's still falling then feller.

How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

There was some speculation that this would be the result of the ongoing chapterhouse lawsuit. And here it is. As usual it doesnt fix any issues we have with GW(except we will KNOW when a unit isnt getting a model), it simply fixes some issues that GW has with us.

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

This could be either a very good thing or a bad thing.

Good:
Every army gets something new every so often

Bad:
Will make a lot of units in the codex's "useless" if the new ones are alot better than the older ones.

Could this also mean that codex's may be getting upgraded sooner?

yeah,
This makes sense. release all the units you have models for with the codex.

Hold the codex if needs be.
This has got to be better than seeing all the terribad conversions people come up with because they can't wait for a official release.

H.B.M.C. via bols wrote:"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

GW can keep things interesting add a new unit in WD a year later.

It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

The bad part I see about this is how some of the codices have been known to stay as they are for sometimes 10 years. If everything gets released with the book, that is something like 8-9 years with little to no interest (WD for example in its current iteration of sell new stuff) shown for the force thus fewer people who would become interested in that faction. In short less reason to add additional units until the book is finally redone a decade later.

Or in the case of some armies, stuck in between advertisements with the same old models from before.

Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Is this an improvement over what we've got currently? Yes

It is perfect? No.

Is PP's method better? IMO Yes.

Is this GW? Yup

So HBMC hates it? Absolutely.

I prefer this to the "Don't-Tell-em-What's-Coming!" wave system, I must admit, but a middle ground approach would probably work better.

yeah,
Unless the new GW plan enables them to release an army changing unit a year or two later to revitalise the codex.
Like the new necron flying transports...

Something that people can go ooh shiney I'd like to base a army around that.

Panic...

Panic wrote:
It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

This is interesting.

Firstly i would assert that the third party miniatures companies have done nothing but good for the hobby (not to be confused with the HHHobby) choice and competition are always good for any industry.

Secondly. Many places now make Space Marine Alikes with slightly different themes. Pretty sure GW got that style of space marine out first, and the third party industry still makes money out of them. Not releasing a miniature just tends to force players to explore the third party industry until GW releases that mini. See above.

n0t_u wrote:The bad part I see about this is how some of the codices have been known to stay as they are for sometimes 10 years. If everything gets released with the book, that is something like 8-9 years with little to no interest (WD for example in its current iteration of sell new stuff) shown for the force thus fewer people who would become interested in that faction. In short less reason to add additional units until the book is finally redone a decade later.

To be fair, the Codices as they exist now do have many years between them. What this changes is potential interest from new releases (but not necessarily rules) in the interim. Dark Eldar and Necrons are actually two good examples of where wave releases work really well. I think everything in the Necron Codex (barring the odd special char) has a model, and the book wasn't out that long ago. That's the way to maintain interest in an army. Unfortunately you need to start doing this for every army, and treating it like a clock-work schedule of rolling releases, so, to pick some armies and months at random:

Jan: Necrons Codex
Feb: Dwarves book
Mar: Some LOTR crap.
Apr: Space Wolf Codex/Necron 2nd Wave
May: Wood Elf book/Dwarf second wave.
Jun: More LOTR stuff/followup to previous LOTR release.
Jul: Tyranid release/Space Wolf 2nd Wave/Necron 3rd Wave.
Aug: Brettonian book/Woof Elf second wave/Dwarf 3rd Wave.
Sep: LOTR stuff (I may not like it, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist).
Oct: Tau Codex/Tyranid 2nd Wave/Space Wolf 3rd Wave/Necron Final wave.
Nov: Lizardmen book/Brettonian 2nd wave/Woof Eld 3rd Wave/Dwarf final wave.
Dec: Random hobby stuff/terrain/Christmas deals.

Rinse, repeat.

Now that's compressed. I'd probably do that over the course of 24 months, not just a single year, so that everything in a Codex gets a model release within 24 months of the Codex/Army Book hitting shelves. Models would be ready before the Codex goes to print (so they're in the book - never hurts to show what's coming up in your official book). And I wouldn't be afraid of releasing multiple things for multiple lines in one month, the way GW did it in the 90's. Taking an old WD issue at random - issue 197 - that month gave us Dark Elves (army book) and a splash of releases, the original Demolisher, Chief Librarian Tigurius, an Epic release, some Termagant models and a Warhammer Quest expansion. A month needn't be devoted to a single specific part of a single product line.

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing? If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

Was there ever a point where EVERY unit was available (not counting SCs)??

I've said this before but I'm not really in favour of a policy of GW releasing a model for everything in the Codex. The number of kits released for an army is limited by production factors, but the number of units in a Codex isn't. If the policy is to link the two, then we'll only see shorter, duller codexes, since units will (presumably) not be included unless there is a model kit planned.

We lose nothing by having extra conversion-only units in the codex, we gain versatility and fluff, GW still gets product sales from converters.

I'm all for this. Hope it's true. Sick of codexes releasing with really cool units without models for them, and having to wonder how long it will be before we get a model (if ever).

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

More choice is never a bad thing - if GW's product is the best and the other companies are inherently worse ('parasites') then everybody would buy GW, so there wouldn't be a problem?

I'd be happier with the choice of three different possible Tomb Blades, based on which model style I like, compared to only the GW option and everything else declared heresy.

In assembling parts from my Iron Hands, I've bought four or five different 'Armoured Bionic Space Knight' parts from four or five different manufacturers. The army wouldn't look as interesting/varied if I was limited to only the GW options...

This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have). I hope that if they do follow this course, they at keep up the between-codex updates such as the recent Stormtalon and Ork flyers or the Nightspinner to keep things interesting, and do so with greater frequency.

ArbitorIan wrote:Was there ever a point where EVERY unit was available (not counting SCs)??

Necrons 3rd Ed:
Lords
Destroyer Lords
Immortals
Pariahs
Warriors
Scarabs
Destroyers
Wraiths
Tomb Spyders
Heavy Destroyers
Monoliths
C'Tan x2

Tau 3rd Ed:
Crisis Suits
Ethereals
[Shield Drones]
Crisis Suits (as Elites)
Stealth Suits
Fire Warriors
[Drones]
Kroot
[Kroot Hounds]
[Krootox]
[Shapers]
Devilfish
Pathfinders
Drones (in squadrons)
Hammerheads
Broadsides

Tyranids 3rd Ed:
Hive Tyrants
Tyrant Guard
Lictors
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Termagants
Ripper Swarms
Hormagants
Raveners
Gargoyles
Carnifex
Zoanthrope
Biovores
The Red Terror
Old One Eye

Tyranid 4th Ed:
Hive Tyrant
Tyrant Guard
Broodlord
Tyranid Warriors
Lictors
Genestealers
Gaunt Brood
Hormaguant Brood
Ripper Swarms
Raveners
Gargoyles
Spore Mines
Zoanthropes
Biovores
Carnifex

Should I go on? There's more.

Aside from special characters, these are all the unit entries in their respective Codices. I even checked 3rd Ed Marines and found one, the Scout bike... then remembered that it did exist as a metal/plastic hybrid.

If this turns out to be true, then maybe it is to try & stifle third party companies from producing conversion parts or full models, but I doubt it would work, after all, look at the Storm Raven conversion kit from Chapterhouse - it doesn't make a new version, just makes the model look a lot better.

Perhaps though, the real reason is based on the perceived customer behaviour. Maybe they figure if little Johnny isn't going to be in it for long, then release all the shinies at once, get all his (or mum & dads) cash, then who cares? He'll be gone soon, no need to release anything else. For anyone who does stick around longer, they'll get bored with nothing new coming out for years, so start a new army when it's released - or probably according to GW they will anyway.

Certainly have to agree with the 'pendulum' analogy, GW just can't seem to find the m middle ground on anything.

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

All a change like this might mean is that everything they were going to make gets released at the same time, rather than over a period of time. It wouldn't suddenly mean that everything gets a model. So whether you waited two years for a Harpy or got it on the same day the 'Dex was out might mean nothing if they never intended to make a Harpy model in the first place.

H.B.M.C. wrote:--A massive list answering my question--

Necron 3ed
Tau 3d
Tyranid 3ed/4ed

Should I go on? There's more. Aside from special characters, these are all the unit entries in their respective Codices. I even checked 3rd Ed Marines and found one, the Scout bike... then remembered that it did exist as a metal/plastic hybrid.

Fair point. Although both the Necron and Tau 3ed codexes were new and considered very lacking in choice. I think I would have preferred more units, even if they couldn't be released....

And they did. And they all got models!

I mean, even the Eldar eventually got the one thing they were missing - the Wave Serpent. Even the Shining Spears, absent throughout all of 2nd Ed, got a release.

From 3rd Ed through late 4th Ed, GW went out of their way to release models for everything in a Codex (unless you happen to be an Ork Codex, in which case you gak out of luck... and still are!).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...
Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish, if they had half a back bone they would just make thier own games and fan base.
like zombicide or sedation wars or super dungeon explore.

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.


Panic...

Typical GW... Stop something just as they were starting to get it right.

The Wave releases have worked fine with the last few codices. - Blood Angels, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

As far as I can think off hand, barring some special characters (which has been mentioned), every major model has been released for them.

Crazy GW, just crazy...

This is the exact opposite approach I would take if I was GW. At the moment, we hear of releases being delayed so they can be synchronised with similar releases to form waves. Rather than delay things further to form bigger waves (consisting of everything for this army including the codex), I would get the models and the books on sale as soon as they're ready.

Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm probably one of the few who is looking forward to this, if it is true of course, don't trust those Bell lot one bit. Back then when the 4th edition Guard codex was released you had all your releases in one go, stretched out over a month, with half coming out at the start of the month, the rest two weeks after that, allowing GW to neatly fill a month of releases.

yeah,

Oakenshield wrote:
Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I think everyone has alot more respect for Mantic and PP...
We can all have marines in space! or some other monster bash...

I don't even have a issue with companies releasing generic 3rd party add ons.
I love alot of the extra heads and weapons and arms out there. from companies like pig iron.
something extra to spice up you models is great.

But as always someone will get greedy and take the piss.

Panic...

Panic wrote:IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...

Sorry. I don't know what that is. I know that 40K is a miniature-based wargame, one of many hundreds across the world. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a hobby in and of itself though.


And yes, before you say it I am being facetious and I do know exactly what you're getting at. I just reject it as a truthful notion entirely. There is now "GW hobby". There is simply a hobby that GW plays a role in (a large role, to be sure, but just a role).

Panic wrote:Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish

Ok, that's great, but it's also personal opinion. It's one thing to say "Your minis are crap". It's another to say "Your minis are crap and you're a parasite!". I don't like most of what Chapterhouse does, especially a lot of their early stuff, things like malformed asymmetrical thunder hammers, ugly shoulder pads with chunky details and so on. I also don't like their Tervigon kit.

I don't buy those things because I don't like them, not because of any intrinsic moral 'value' over the IP.

I'll use a couple of Puppet's War examples:

Would you classify this as parasitical? As something that 'tarnishes' the hobby? What about these? Now, up until a week ago I hadn't seen new Wraiths in person, and I didn't really like them (my opinion has since changed - I didn't realise just how big they are!), but I really like the models in the second link, enough that I would use them as alternative Wraiths.

As others have said, I don't think choice is a bad thing. I built an AdMech army out of Iron Brotherhood models. I've converted Flagellants into Redemptionists with heads from Tabletop Art and turned my Warboss and Nobs into pirates. Are these companies parasites? Really?