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CT GAMER wrote:

Oakenshield wrote:

Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm not defending GW per se, but your analogy is a big stretch:

1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

2. Beign inspired by tropes and concepts and using them to write the background/look of a game setting that you then make original design models for is far different then someone hiding in the shadows trying to put out knock-off versions of those exact designs (copyrighted products) before the parent company does...

I don't really enough either way to get hot and bothered over it personally, but a I stated: your assertion is a HUGE stretch...

1 that has **nothing** to do with respect. do you really think a knock-off game would have gotten half the attention this did? do you realize what a cash-cow this has been for them? respect? really, no. just profit. (NTTAWWT!)
2 ...you do realize many of the models are rather... derivative as well? I mean, the idea of copyrighting the concept of a pauldron... it takes some chutzpah. there's more like that. no, power armour is not all that original - if anything 'Nids might be but even there I've seen people point out lots of pop-culture examples predating GW. haven't got any to hand, but there's plenty threads to this.

//why do I even bother

Hmm... undecided on this. The Codex system really demands that everything is released at once, though I think the wave system has worked ok. It would have worked better if the release schedule was confirmed in advance.

This can only be a good thing. I really don't get the argument 'but then you won't get any new stuff for 6-7 years' at all. Seriously, do you guys buy models for your army just because they are new? I absolutely despise the wave system because we don't know if and when a wave hits.

I had to hold on assembling a Necron army for a time because I wasn't sure if and when or ever the Scythe models are released. An army based on them was the only one I was interested in. Now I don't care if GW doesn't release any new Necron models for the next 7 years. When the time comes that I've painted and assembled a force large and flexible enough that I can build every tournament army imaginable from the codex, I'll buy another army, most likely a new one with new interesting rules and models. There's plenty room on the shelves. I don't need to be crying in a corner that the army I've played with for a year or two needs something new. Why would I? Modern 40K codex books have plenty of units (much more than they used to) to choose from. Getting a single new unit after a couple years won't refresh the army in any way. If I want something new, I buy something entirely new with a different visual theme and playstyle.

What's keeping you guys from owning multiple armies, or one of every GW army? You'll always have something to add on to/replace then. Here's a plan: Start playing a DIY Space Marines chapter that can wysiwyg count as any chapter, and then one xenos army of your liking. Believe me a year won't go by that you won't have new models to buy and new rules to use, if that's your thing.

My preference in full model splash with White Dwarf becoming useful again with rules for any new models in conjunction with releases.

This wouldn't be any worse than the current method, and given the current quality of models, I'd be fine with them all coming out at once. If I'm going to buy more, it shouldn't need to be because its new, it should be because I want said unit, or want to increase the size/variety of my army.

yeah,

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

Bacms wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

But almost every codex has every non character unit available now.
So it seems future new army releases / codex releases will be about replacing tired old models and adding relatively few new units.

Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

Panic...

Kroothawk wrote:6-7 years between releases? I play Dark Eldar, Sororitas and Wood elves! Ask your Grandpa if he remembers the last Wood Elf release!

"Dad, when will I get new miniatures for my army?" "Ask me again when you are married, son."

Yes, the funny thing is I remember exactly the same conversations prior to the last Wood Elf army book. God knows how many years that had been released before! I guess some armies will also be less popular sales wise, and so will always only get the smallest amount of service.

TBH I don't know if this policy change will make much of a difference to that many people. The hardcore fans will have already made conversions/bought 3rd party bits (as was the case with the Nids for example), and the target demographic of kids will probably just shrug their shoulders and get something else anyway.

Panic wrote:Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

These come to mind:

Asdrubael Vect
Kheradruakh
Baron Sathonyx
Lady Malys
Duke Sliscus
Void Raven
Griffon
Colossus
Nork Deddog
Mogul Kamir
Lukas Bastonne
Hydra
Wazdakka
Old Zogwort
non-BR Dethkoptas

(In addition Rough Riders and Storm Troopers could do with new models, they are about 20 and 10 years old, respectively)

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:
I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

How would it be any less harmful if those units didn't exist in the Codex at all?

GW publish codexes with units in so they can sell models.

There were no models and hundreds of players made their own. I'm happy with that but I bet GW aren't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

Emphasis mine!

Why argue over whether you think waiting for years to get a new codex and models is better than being drip-fed stuff at seemingly random intervals with no real warning?

The simplest thing for GW to do, and the one that protects their IP the most, is to have art of all the models in the codex. This does not mean everything will be released at once, just that GW can say "If it looks like our illustration, and is called what we call it, then it's our IP and you'd better not use anything else!". It's all about stopping 3rd party companies selling stuff to fill in for models GW can't be ar*ed to produce, but 'may' do so at some unspecified time in the future.

And that will work. Their house, their rules. You will not be allowed to use proxy models, except possibly conversions using ONLY GW parts, at official tournaments or in GW stores (Individual managers may let that slide, but will be taking a risk if they do). FLGS may risk loosing stockist status if found allowing other companies models, gaming at a friend's house you can do whatever the players agree on.


Dropping everything on players all at once is, IMO, likely to lose sales, people will buy a codex on week 1, read it without buying any models to find out what units are the most OP, or suit their playstyle most, buy what they are after on week 2, paint and play by week 3. Where as staggered releases may force people into buying second best until their prefferred units come out. Personally I don't care. I don't play, I model - so if something I want to model comes out with everything else, or in 6 months time, makes no odds to me. I just want to know IF it's coming out and WHEN it's coming out. And with the recent price hikes, I'm much more likely to put my disposable income into another area of my hobby (Modelling) or one of my other hobbies. The only people who lose out due to bad decisions by GW (Finecast - especially now marines are going FC! new marine vehicle designs, and yes, no love for the Tau collector in me) and price increases on stuff that I thought was expensive in the first place - IS GW!

Voting with my wallet. Not impressed by recent GW behaviour, not buying GW stuff. Message to GW is simple. Improve and gain back custom, or keep doing what you are doing and die.

I think that if they utilize the new BRB, and codex for only currently existing models and use the white dwarf to release new models with new rules within the game, they may have something similar to PP's version of releases.

the only drawback to this system vs PP, is that PP is card based, meaning you can update all your models with just a single faction deck purchase, and all models come with their addended rules in the box or blister. (something GW could also do)

The flyer's issue we just recieved is a good example of how that could be played out. 3 armies got a new model and rules (necrons already having their rules).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Awww come on, you of all people know better than to feed the fanboys...and Panics comment was the purest fanboy stuff Ive seen.

I think I would prefer to have the splashes followed by nothing rather than the hideous conversions you see of models that aren't released yet from a new Codex. I purchase entire armies at a time and then paint them over the course of several years usually so give me all the models right off please. I waited a year to make my Red Hunters waiting for Stormravens, I waited more than two years to finish my Daemons so I could have Fateweaver and plastic Crushers. Getting everything I want for a new army has never really been possible on release before, I think I will be fine with it.

I can see the no new stuff for ages issue, but in my mind its very rare I'd buy a whole army in one sitting anyways. So at least having every unit type available right from the off would allow me to take the initial force I wanted and add to it later.

I think given the two options, looking at how the Tyranid players have been stringed along, I'd rather have the mostly at once option.

If they want to add to the army again before the next release, surely thats what missing special Characters and old units being upgraded to plastic or redone due to age would be for. Or as others have noted, just adding new units via the Dwarf as it seems they are willing to do that again.

I did this during the beginning of 2d edition.

Began with a boxed set, added my army in as they came out. then filled it out as the battles evolved my game. Currently, as with current tech- GW is taking the piss.

They should take a step back, and remember what they already learned the first time, ala 2d edition- That pushing a codex eventually removes some if not several units that eventually will be forgotten.

They can easily sell you a 3 ring binder with the current established army stats in it, then sell you several, or PDF evolutions of units in the army throughout the year. Thereby taking advantage of established dogma, and NOT rewriting the damn game every iteration, and giving players a stable environment to play in for a game. (A shock attack gun is a shock attack gun, a Leman Russ is a Leman Russ, a Long fang is a long fang....)

The way in which GW exploited its fans over the years, combined with the tiolet spillage that Mr Wells spouts off at random is easily in the realm of reality, yet when combined with attitudes like Panics, ( yes, I understand your perspective, even though I do not entirly agree, and feel that third parties are an intrigal part of Wargaming, the real hobby here.

We are as of now looking at players playing basicly the same armies as the game evovles year to year. Whatever works, someone spouts off an internets list, then you have the mindless chum coming in behind and playing the exact thing- as SOME Units are entirly ignored, as other units are creamed all over for the sake of the win.

In the event that this is true, GW could easily sell you a codex, an army book of fluff, and additional evolutions of your unit, which you could theoreticly change, and add to your binder, ( Much as in the days of Rogue Trader, when you had to get the stuff out of the WD to play the game with.)

Then there is the little matter of spouting off at the hole with a craptastic codex, which is entirely ... garbage. What then, to the guy whos sitting there with a few years worth of product, when your looking over at the much loved Necrons/ Tyranids who seem to be getting all of the lickies and chewies.

Take that you silly little IG!

I for one would wish that they could eventually just up and nix the codex, add in an 1-2" army bible and call it a day.

PP is already on target, and out GW'ing GW at every turn at it.

My personal opinion is I like everything all at once. I hate waiting months for a model. When I get the book I want to play the full army not part cause there is no model.

The other factor to consider is that GW may be at the point where they believe the range is 90% complete. Very few races now will require redesigning from the ground up like Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you look at the Empire release in April, the models that came out that month consisted solely of new units. The core of the army already exists (albeit with some very old scuplts), so they didn't need to release all that much.

I'd say pretty much every army is at this stage now with ony a few minor gaps in the range.

I prefer the release of new and redesigned units along with the codex instead of staggered wave releases that may or may not happen for years. As for the lack of new stuff in between codex releases, there is always WD for articles that expand units for armies... or god forbid annual or biennial compilation Chapter Approved books like in 3rd edition.

GW could do an everything at once release, followed by new units later. They have the track-recodd that shows that they are perfectly capable of that:

Release small updates via White Dwarf (fliers)
Add a game mechanic that could include something for everyone (new cityfight book with some nice models for each army?)
Add new sub-codicies/army lists ala Imperial Armour.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

It's cool that the best you can do is insult me. It might be better to stay on topic... but that might just be my opinion.

Don't let me stop you though. Carry on attempting to turn this into something about me.

Releasing everything at the same time is a good thing. You complain about it. That screams out loud that you want it to be all about you. How about trying to see the good in something for once?

Interesting. Adding the original rumor to the ongoing thread.

lord_blackfang wrote:I already have enough problems convincing my opponents that my Q-workshop dice are fair and that my printed FAQs aren't forged. Not looking forward to printing new rules off the website.

If everybody needs to print off the rules then it should become fairly common place then. SO you shouldn't have much problems I would have thought. If people at the moment are bugging you about your current FAQs and also dice, then perhaps you are playing with the wrong people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

Just because a person has a different thought than you does not mean you have to be that rude.

-Loki- wrote:
That's not a bad thing. Codices and army books are so bloated right now, there's already redundant units in them. The problem of GW being a miniatures company instead of a game company, they need new models in the book every edition. Books that had a release in 4th edition didn't need new units in 5th. Books that got a release in 5th not only don't need new units in 6th, but some could stand to lose a few as well. Books that have had a release every edition are getting ridiculous. This is where balancing issues tend to crop up, since the newer unit that made an old unit redundant tends to be a bargain simply to sell the model to people that already have the older model (good example - the Trygon and the Carnifex).

Not getting as many units on release, but getting them all? Yes please.

Exactly. I am a blood angels player and I am STILL trying to buy stuff to fill my army out and I've only played the one army since 3rd ed. I have recently bought some Grey Knights (just waiting for them through the post), so I will have enough on my hands as it is trying to fill out my collection. Saving grace is that I can use some of my Blood Angels stuff along with my Grey Knights e.g. Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Stormravens, etc, etc.

I dont know if this has been mentioned but GW have already done this with the necrons. All the models were clearly designed and ready to go when the codex came out and they just spread them over 6 months.

I like it this way.

Tigerone wrote:
Just because a person has a different thought than you does not mean you have to be that rude.

Says the guy that constantly calls whiners to everyone that dares complain about GW pricing policies...

DaNewBoy wrote:I'm also not seeing a downside to this.

Unless this is just another, "OMG I hate anything and everything GW does" type deal?

If there is "nothing to buy" until the next codex is release, then I am relieved. This will actually make maintaining two or three different armies easier, imo.

Its kinda like that

I'm kinda fine with how GW releases stuff now. My only real complaint is they don't tell you what's coming even 1 month away. Just. Totally. Stupid.

Conrad Turner wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

The simplest thing for GW to do, and the one that protects their IP the most, is to have art of all the models in the codex. This does not mean everything will be released at once, just that GW can say "If it looks like our illustration, and is called what we call it, then it's our IP and you'd better not use anything else!". It's all about stopping 3rd party companies selling stuff to fill in for models GW can't be ar*ed to produce, but 'may' do so at some unspecified time in the future.

You're sort of close, but IP does not work this way with models from what I understand. They can copyright the illustration, idea, etc. but if they haven't produced a model for it, they can't claim another company is infringing on their IP if they produce a proxy model. Basically GW will have to show a model for a unit in the codex, even if they don't immediately release it to prevent 3rd party companies from producing knock-off models.

So what I believe we will see in codexes is images for all units, to protect copyright, but they may not release everything immediately, or at least lessen the length of waves, like with dark Eldar.

I would much prefer everything all at once. I'm sure I'm not the only one who spaces out purchases over time, and the idea that everything released at once will hurt sales doesn't make sense. People will spend what they can afford to spend. They will buy what they can and come back later for more, and be confident in knowing everything is available for them when they need it and not have to wonder about a potential release at some unspecified future date.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Panic wrote:Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

These come to mind:

Asdrubael Vect (Isn't there an old model for this guy? I don't know if they still sell it though)
Kheradruakh
Baron Sathonyx
Lady Malys
Duke Sliscus
Void Raven
Griffon (Old model, don't think they make one anymore, but there is a FW alternative)
Colossus (No GW model, but again, a FW model can be used)
Nork Deddog (I seem to remember they did do one of these at some point? Don't know whether they still sell it though, maybe it was a conversion...)
Mogul Kamir
Lukas Bastonne
Hydra (FW model)
Wazdakka (I thought there was a model for Wazdakka? Or am I getting mixed up with something else? I don't play Orks...)
Old Zogwort
non-BR Dethkoptas

(In addition Rough Riders and Storm Troopers could do with new models, they are about 20 and 10 years old, respectively) (Agreed on RRs, but Kasrkin are basically Storm-Trooper re-sculpts? Agreed on needing more though, I don't like Kasrkin too much....)

Added my thoughts in bold

There's more than just those last two being old and needing re-sculpts though, I think some of the Eldar aspects are showing their age, and Ork Buggies are still using the 2nd edition model aren't they? Oh... And the Assassins! I bought the old 2nd ed Assassins codex off ebay for cheap, and really want some assassins now, but they look too... Dated... They've aged better than some models mind....