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aka_mythos wrote:

Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.

For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.

For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.

In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.

Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?

... .

The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.

They aren't.

Kilkrazy wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Eilif wrote:I agree. My tolerance for repairing models operates on a sliding scale depending on the price of the model.

For the price of finecast, they should arrive trimmed of sprue and free of defect.

For all the hype and the premium price, the simple fact is that the finecast product has unacceptably high rate of flaws.

In fairness its no different and no more work than how GW recommends using greenstuff to smooth and fill out the joints when you assembled metal miniatures.

Forgeworld models are more costly, don't come free of flaws and aren't trimmed off their sprue. So what basis are you using to say "for the price...they should..."?

... .

The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.

They aren't.

Its not even a fine cast.

Kilkrazy wrote:The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.

They aren't.

*** sarcasm alert ***

I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do. I didn't know that when GW said anything it became a holy writ. When GW talk about 'the hobby' I have always read it as 'the hobby of collecting GW miniatures' not the sum total of life on Earth as we know it. I'd like to see some decent figures on the scale of miscasts. It seems to me like it was a rush job because they were launching a new product across their three games systems. Even if they got in extra labour there would be less skilled people casting the figures. I agree with some of the trepidation people have for younger players possibly being disappointed with their first figure but that's nothing new compared to trying to put together my first metal dragon in the 80s. I am wary that forums make it seem like there are more problems than is really the case. Like most people I will be wary of buying Finecast models unseen but in truth that goes for all models, it feels as if it is highlighted because its a big change and the product is directly comparable to old models in metal. (edit) It should be noted that we are rather spoilt by Citadel's plastic range so we aren't used to defects.

Bloodwin wrote:I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do....

Of course it was advertising hype.

But the danger of using this sort of hype is that if your product doesn't go far enough towards living up to that hype, it can backfire.

Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then having it be pretty good... that'll satisfy most people.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then releasing something that looks like the efforts of a fairly inexperienced garage company... not so much.

NAVARRO wrote:

Its not even a fine cast.

Lets be fair, "SameCast" just doesn't have the same ring to it...

insaniak wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do....

Of course it was advertising hype.

But the danger of using this sort of hype is that if your product doesn't go far enough towards living up to that hype, it can backfire.

Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then having it be pretty good... that'll satisfy most people.
Stating that your product is the best thing ever and then releasing something that looks like the efforts of a fairly inexperienced garage company... not so much.

Aye. I honestly wasn't expecting anything better (detail/appearance-wise) than what I'd expect of a good metal casting, not the bestest evers miniatures GW was hyping. What I got didn't even come close to that, or GW's previous offerings.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Honestly I don't see all the extra detail that is supposed to be on finecast models. The resin Abbadon I looked at looked just like my metal one as far as I can tell. The big upside to finecast models seems, to me, to be the decreased weight over metal models.

From what it looks like on the current minis the only difference is some slight 'crispness' difference due to how molten metal vs. liquid resin fills in small details. The models appear to be made from the same masters.

On the other hand, it's possible that one things are getting designed and sculpted with the new process in mind there may be some increase in fine details, but I wouldn't expect anything amazing. Maybe a bit finer small details like filigree on armor.

http://massivevoodoo.blogspot.com/2011/06/games-workshops-finecast-review.html

Even Massive Voodoo ran into the same issues, and I trust them 100%.

Note, in the above review, they show a primered side by side of the metal and resin, and there is no difference in the level of detail.

It seems to me resin photographs better, so doing side by sides without primering both to put them both on even footing is misleading. I am also sure that in some case, such as the Carnosaur, it does look like there is more detail...

What a crapshoot -


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Yea that massive voodoo review was pretty good. The side by side primered images were very telling. Well done! Thanks for sharing that!

Im surprised they didn't comment on the durability, I don't expect resin to hold up well (to transport and play), but then, they seem like fine painters and perhaps not players? Speculative on my part...

Good review from Voodoo, but that guy sure did spray the primer on thick judging by that picture!

Yea it looks a little textured on the bodies doesnt it? Hmm.

nectarprime wrote:Good review from Voodoo, but that guy sure did spray the primer on thick judging by that picture!

Augustus wrote:Yea it looks a little textured on the bodies doesnt it? Hmm.

C'mon you two can do better than that!

1. Obviously they are both metal models!
2. Why'd they use the same model but put it on a different base!

Probably about 10 other sarcastic comments I could make but the truth of the matter is this: At this scale...no amount of clarity of detail is going to be retained once you start laying primer and paint on a model. In short the 'better detail' argument is moot.

Eilif wrote:
Perhaps you didn't mean this the way it looks in print, but if you did...
It's quite presumptuous to judge what is too expensive for someone whose finances you are not familiar with. I can afford GW at retail, but I choose to put my money into a variety of more reasonably priced alternatives (and some used GW products) in order to get more for my $.

Come on mate this is the internet, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt

aka_mythos is one of the more polite posters on here, I took the comment as 'if the cost is more than you are willing to pay for it, then find another interest'

Pacific wrote:

Cadaver wrote:

I definitely agree Specialists Games should be a bigger focus. It allows people to get into the hobby without investing hundreds of dollars, let alone the time involved in painting larger armies. I exclusively play SGs these days, since the level of commitment I have allows me enough time to play smaller, quicker games I can get in on a weeknight with friends. I really hope there is either an option alternate rules set in 6th edition, like Kill Team was (although hopefully slightly more expansive) or alternatively, an expansion, which allows for smaller, yet balanced games using a variation of the core rules. I'm not optimistic, but a version of 40k that is in more direct competition with WarmaHordes would be great. I'd honestly have given Privateer Press a go if I could get over the look of their miniatures.

.

Not sure if you have tried it, but have you considered Infinity? I so wish I had discovered it a couple of years ago, the game system and models are absolutely superb, it's just so ... hmmm... I think 'dynamic' is the word that best suits it.

I have not, although I have looked through their model line a number of times. Their stuff looks great from a purely aesthestic perspective. However, in that regard I can consider myself a GW "fanboy" in that I'm really not that big of a tabletop gamer. I like 40k because of the background that GW has created, as well as a certain level of nostalgia from having collected GW models over the past 15 years. Other games like Infinity, Privateer Press and Malifaux, while having some cool aspects, just don't appeal to me beyond a certain appreciation for the models. In my opinion, none of these companies can compare to the design that GW has created for their universe.

brettz123 wrote:

Cadaver wrote:
Now to continue the car metaphor, they do require maintenance occasionally, i.e. new codexes, rulebooks, etc. But just as people can keep driving their older car, they can keep playing with their existing armies. They are not entitled to barebones prices on new releases, just as people aren't entitled to brand new cars for low costs, just because they are a previous customer of the company. GW is not unique in that regard to any other large corporation. The fact that they produce a product that people feel passionately about, does not entitle their fans to special treatment. The consumer ultimately has the choice whether or nor to support a company. If they are not happy with the cost or quality of the product, they are always free to take their business elsewhere.

I'm not sure this is a good analogy. People need to keep up their car or buy a new one eventually to continue using it. This is not the case with GW miniatures. Someone can still use their miniatures old miniatures (generally speaking of course) and never need to upgrade. GW should be actively getting people to not only upgrade their old miniatures but to buy a second or third army. Large price increases certainly hurt them in this area.

The exact point I was making is that people don't need to upgrade their miniatures. Strictly speaking, people don't even need to upgrade the codexes or rulebooks if they are happy with a current edition and have a group that wants to keep playing that edition.

But as far as price increases, I would argue that in most cases, the diehard gamers are going to upgrade, and going to keep purchasing, regardless of price increases. Yes, some will not buy as much, but GW's current business model seems to focus on recouping losses in sales but increases in prices for their product. That's fine if that's how they want to run their company, and I don't feel that I am entitled to lower prices, even as a longtime customer. The simple fact is they are promoting their product in a way that does not appeal to me as a customer. I am in most cases forced to go to eBay for my Necromunda purchases, as GW does not offer that full line, nor do they offer a skirmish level game for 40k. If they did I would certainly have small forces for Daemons, Dark Eldar, CSMs, and probably a few others if I could use these models in a small scale game. My issue is simply time, and not necessarily the cost of the product. If GW was a little more business savvy they should realize a smaller scale version of 40k - whether it be available in the main rulebook(preferable, IMO) or as an expansion - would not only be a better introductory method for new customers, but also a way for more current customers to have a reason to purchase the "flavor of the month" codex, they would probably experience greater sales across the board. Not only that, but they could also have a platform to compete more directly with the smaller scale competitors out there.

I'd honestly love to give GW more of my money. I think the new DE are some of the best models out to date. But I'm not going to fork over $300+ dollars for each new army just because it looks awesome. I don't have the time for it. I'd gladly hand over $100 for each release if I could play that army on a skirmish level. Hell, I might even get into WFB if they did something similar there.

My criticism of GW is that they need to be a bit more dynamic in their approach to targeting customers. Theer are a wide variety of people who are interested in this hobby. Basing their business model solely on the impulse buyer kid who walks through the door is shortsighted and could very well end up costing them many customers in the long run. Ultimately it's their choice how they want to run their business, and as consumers, we have the choice whether or not to purchase their products.

Based only on that picture, I started off thinking the one on the left was resin, with quite a large bubble disposing of the Chimp's fist - then I noticed the nub for the holstered pistol, and realised that hand was probably another piece.

Nothing t see here, move along.....

Bloodwin wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The point is that GW named Finecast the best miniatures in the world.

They aren't.

*** sarcasm alert ***

I thought that it was advertising hype, like most companies do.
...
.

That would be a point to be decided by a court. I certainly didn't take it as hype.

I would argue firstly that there can be a "finest miniature in the world", so it isn't an obvious hyperbole as a claim.

"The finest miniature in the galaxy" would certainly be hype, in contrast.

Carlsberg used to advertise themselves as "Probably the best lager in the world" because they wouldn't get away with a claim of being "the Best".

Secondly, GW's line about the qualities of their miniatures is also presented in their financial statements. It isn't just used as advertising, it is used as a serious statement about the purpose of their business.

My biggest bugbear is not so much the cost, it's what you get for the money. £18.50 for 10 Imperial Guardsmen is truly laughable....£18.50 for what? 80pts?!

That just makes horde army's practically obsolete, it's not wether you can afford it that really matters, GW is a niche hobby afterall, what really matters is value for money. For that price I would expect 20 Guardsmen for the good that they do on a table.

If GW insist on raising prices so spectacularly, at least give the gamers a little more for thier money. The 'Finecast' stuff is, for the most part, badly made. The level of detail is no different and the durability of the 'Finecast' resin is questionable.

THOSE are the biggest problems I have with the GW business practise atm....that and treating longtime gamers, like myself and a lot of other poster's on here, like mugs.

I really want a DE army, but I cannot justify it. The way GW are pumping out second class mini's is shocking. For the reason's stated above, my money is currently being spent on Mantic and Infinity.

According to this blogger, Finecast resin is sensitive to heat. Enclosed is a picture of his Gandalf, melted in the sun. Feel free to repeat the experiment if skeptical. If you do, please document it fully.

http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-leave-finecast-in-sun.html

Oh dear....

Frontline Gamer wrote:...the former GW manager of Sutton Coldfield has just informed me that the Leamington Spa stores Finecast window display has also melted. If you want to post it on those places then by all means do so... I posted it on BoLS and got nothing but grief and insults off of people who don't want to hear any bad news.

Also, some more info that was buried in the 40K discussion's forum:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372723.page#2875141

I think someone on Dakka has also done their own heat test but I can't seem to find it right now...

lol, finecost displays melting!! This is almost like a bad satire skit. You just can't write this stuff.

Like I said, I lost a squad of krieg due to heat - finecost is really not that different. Unless they reformulate, this isn't going to bode well over the longterm for those with the finecost models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd LOVE to see how the GW stores in Texas and Arizona even stock the stuff in the middle of summer.

Thrax wrote:lol, finecost displays melting!! This is almost like a bad satire skit. You just can't write this stuff.

Like I said, I lost a squad of krieg due to heat - finecost is really not that different. Unless they reformulate, this isn't going to bode well over the longterm for those with the finecost models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd LOVE to see how the GW stores in Texas and Arizona even stock the stuff in the middle of summer.

I live in the tropics. I really pity the people who still buy GW and want to get Finecast.

Sugestion, don't buy any YET. It looks like the UK will be having a very warm weekend (for the UK), so I woulden't be suppriesd to see GW shops having windows full of melted minis. They will have to look at it again.

Kilkrazy wrote:Secondly, GW's line about the qualities of their miniatures is also presented in their financial statements. It isn't just used as advertising, it is used as a serious statement about the purpose of their business.

That's a good point...

And I can't believe display windows are fething melting already, that's amazing. Kinda hard to sweep THAT one under the rug, huh?

Well, "amazing"...I'm actually very worried about my own purchase now. As if I wasn't already annoyed enough every time I find a new defect in them, now I have to be careful about how long I leave them in sunlight.

even if whole displays are melting I'm sure its not GW's fault, afterall they are akin to gods and cannot make mistakes, its all our faults for making the models out of this resin......

Well you guys should pity me then, I spend 2 months a year in the Philippines! Those finecost thingys ain't gonna last more than 2 hours in the damp heat out there! :(

Displays are melting? That's just golden...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Displays are melting? That's just golden...

actually its more of a grey puddle, if the models melted into pure gold though that would warrant the cost of each of them

Pacific wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Perhaps you didn't mean this the way it looks in print, but if you did...
It's quite presumptuous to judge what is too expensive for someone whose finances you are not familiar with. I can afford GW at retail, but I choose to put my money into a variety of more reasonably priced alternatives (and some used GW products) in order to get more for my $.

Come on mate this is the internet, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt

aka_mythos is one of the more polite posters on here, I took the comment as 'if the cost is more than you are willing to pay for it, then find another interest'

Good point. Always better to assume good intentions.

Consider Benefit-of-Doubt given.

brettz123 wrote:
I'm not sure this is a good analogy. People need to keep up their car or buy a new one eventually to continue using it. This is not the case with GW miniatures. Someone can still use their miniatures old miniatures (generally speaking of course) and never need to upgrade. GW should be actively getting people to not only upgrade their old miniatures but to buy a second or third army. Large price increases certainly hurt them in this area.

While it is true that in theory that you do not need to upgrade your miniatures, in practice their new minis are really important in the game. For example, the Hive Guard, Tervigon, and Trygon are used in many nid lists and did not exist before the current codex. The Hellpit Abomination is used in many Skaven lists. You also have certain units that are removed from the game, like halflings, that cannot be used in tournaments. Lastly, you have changes in the game that alter the way in which armies are constructed. Most 8th edition army lists look much different than 7th edition lists. I needed to buy more Tomb Kings just to field a legal army when the new book came out because all of the troops dropped in points so drastically.

spaceelf wrote: For example, the Hive Guard, Tervigon, and Trygon are used in many nid lists and did not exist before the current codex.

Trygon - Forge World.
Tervigon - Still no official model. Plenty of people scratch build from Carnifexes.
Hive Guard - Mine are scratch built from old 2nd edition Hive Tyrants.

You don't need new models. Folks who have been in the hobby a long time will have plenty of bits and pieces spare and can scratch build and convert quite a bit.