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Grey Templar wrote:the Codex Astartes is OPTIONAL for marine chapters.


the High Lords know it is impossable to enforce and so they don't.

They're not *supposed* to be optional, at least not certain things, Chapter size in particular, some just are able to get away with it. The High Lords also do enforce things when it can't be ignored anymore. The BT's haven't crossed that threshold and take care not to, but it could be suggested that they in fact are renegade or could be construed as such, they just haven't given anyone an excuse to come after them yet.

Vaktathi wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Codex Astartes is OPTIONAL for marine chapters.


the High Lords know it is impossable to enforce and so they don't.

They're not *supposed* to be optional, at least not certain things, Chapter size in particular, some just are able to get away with it. The High Lords also do enforce things when it can't be ignored anymore. The BT's haven't crossed that threshold and take care not to, but it could be suggested that they in fact are renegade or could be construed as such, they just haven't given anyone an excuse to come after them yet.

did you even read my post, there is no suspicion that they are renegade, period

speculation is all well and good but the codex full out refutes it

Brother Coa wrote:I do not hate Tau, I hate when people start talking about Tau like they are all children of Chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Like this...

6,000 vs 1 million Fire Warriors. Not even going to include other races...

Given even the most basic math they would be overwhelmed. Sorry man, but without heavy naval and guard support they would be wiped.

EmilCrane wrote:

did you even read my post, there is no suspicion that they are renegade, period

speculation is all well and good but the codex full out refutes it

I wasn't responding to your post. The codex's viewpoint on that matter is also rather...subjective. If you'd read *my* posts, I said that they could be *considered* renegade, just without having done anything to really bring a nail down on their heads.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
6,000 vs 1 million Fire Warriors. Not even going to include other races...

Given even the most basic math they would be overwhelmed. Sorry man, but without heavy naval and guard support they would be wiped.

And why do you think that they would go alone?

They would bring at least 3 of their successor chapters , 30+ Regiments of Imperial Guard, several Titan Legions ( With Warlords and maybe 2 Imperators ), battle-fleet ( their chapter fleet is already very much powerful.... ) and several chapters ( Ultramarines, Novamarines, Raptors...) would gladly send them support, as local Governors, Adaptus Mechanicus would send Skitarii and Tech priests to study Tau tech...

In this crusade ( if ever happened ) BT would have no shortage of allies. It would be a brutal fight, but in the end Tau would lose. There is no way anything can stand against a full Imperial crusade ( nothing has in the past ).

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Backfire wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Rouge element=/=renegade.



Oh, and the Black Templars Codex states that the Black Templars have dozens of battle-barges. That's at least 24 battle-barges, one of them being what could very well be the largest, most powerful ship in the Imperium, bar the Phalanx (curse you Imperial Fists!).

Backfire wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Rogue means they do their own thing.


the BTs follow their own agenda about how to serve mankind.


the BTs are STILL fighting the Great Crusade. for them it never ended, they will not rest untill the Galaxy is at the Emperor's feet.

a more loyal chapter you could not find.

NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda.

Not necessarily. Knights of Blood keep fighting Imperium's enemies and probably consider themselves loyalists, even though they have been declared renegade. BT are supremely loyal to the Emperor, but it does not mean they are necessarily loyal to all Imperial authorities.

Earlier in the thread (i am NOT about to go find it) someone compared a thunderhawk to a manta...just no. Mantas are 6x bigger, and have a $h1tl0@d of weapons: sixteen Long-Barrelled Burst Cannon, six Long-Barrelled Ion Cannon, two Heavy Rail Guns, Missile Pods and battery of Seeker Missiles as well as a Networked Markerlight turret.

It would literally take 1 or 2 turns to destroy a mid-sized army (~1500pts)

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

From Dictionary.com: Rogue: no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; deviating, renegade

They do in fact pursue their own dogmatic, fanatical agenda without any input from the organizations that actuall run and operate the Imperium or the greater Imperial military forces. Sounds pretty renegade to me. Renegade need not mean they are actively working against the Imperium, but at the same time it doesn't mean they are working in its best interests, but rather what they see as their duty, which is not necessarily the same thing.

Grey Templar wrote:
Rogue means they do their own thing.

See above.

the BTs follow their own agenda about how to serve mankind.


the BTs are STILL fighting the Great Crusade. for them it never ended, they will not rest untill the Galaxy is at the Emperor's feet.

a more loyal chapter you could not find.

Key phrase, *their own agenda*. That may not be in the best interests of the greater Imperium, but rather their interpretation of 10,000 year old dictates. It's very difficult to believe that the Black Templars would not wage war against Imperial authorities if they thought it in their Chapter's interest (be it recruitment worlds, insults to their honor, demands for assistance, supplies, etc), regardless of whether or nor it's best for the Imperium as a whole. Lufgt Huron followed his own agenda about how to serve mankind. Look how that turned out

The BT's are loyal to *their* interpretation of their duty to the Emperor, nobody will deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean they are loyal to the Imperium or it's greater well being.

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

From Dictionary.com: Rogue: no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; deviating, renegade

Essentially, they are like the Soul Drinkers in that they are renegade (and 2nd founding IF), the only difference being that SD are KoS for the IoM

There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade. Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.


As far as the Soul Drinkers are concerned, they were practically forced into becoming renegade. They despise the Imperium as a system of Government, and are still loyal to the Emperor as a separate figure.

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade. Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

In the Imperium, a renegade chapter is considered to no longer be loyal to the Emperor and The Imperium. The Black Templars are fanatically loyal, ergo, they aren't renegade in the Imperiums eyes.

...even though most non-chaos renegades are loyal to the Emperor, they either are disloyal to the IoM (not the big E though, he's just awesome) or have offended someone. (Soul Drinkers fall into both categories)

How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade.

Except their own codex considered them practically "rogue" as pointed out earlier, page 9 of the codex. Rogue is synonymous with renegade. Nobody is arguing that they aren't loyal to their interpretation of their duty to the Emperor. Their interpretation of their duty to the emperor and the Imperium are two different things.

Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

Unknown to the inquisition doesn't mean that it wouldn't be subject to sanction if found out and they do have suscpisions. It also doesn't mean that the BT's should be doing it.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.

Nobody is saying they are outright traitors actively working against the Imperium, which is what Excommunicate Traitoris applies to. However just because they aren't "Excommunicate Traitoris" doesn't mean they aren't renegade. Neither was Lufgt Huron until long after he had seceded his realm.

Vaktathi wrote:


The BT's are loyal to *their* interpretation of their duty to the Emperor, nobody will deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean they are loyal to the Imperium or it's greater well being.

The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor. The BT answer first and foremost to the Emperor, like every space marine did pre-heresy. Their interpretation may be 1 millenia old, still its not as twisted as the imperial cause was from the imperial truth to the
actual way the Imperium operates. Therefore loyality to the Emperor = loyality to the Imperium.
To question the Emperor never turned out well for those who did.

The BT are loyal to the Imperiums well beeing, as seen in the apostasy.
They actively hunt down threats to the Imperium.

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Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Or, you could stop over-exaggerating about Tau hate, troll.

Seems that in every 'Tau hate thread' you've ignored facts quoted by others that are negative about the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade.

Except their own codex considered them practically "rogue" as pointed out earlier, page 9 of the codex. Rogue is synonymous with renegade. Nobody is arguing that they aren't loyal to their interpretation of their duty to the Emperor. Their interpretation of their duty to the emperor and the Imperium are two different things.

Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

Unknown to the inquisition doesn't mean that it wouldn't be subject to sanction if found out and they do have suscpisions. It also doesn't mean that the BT's should be doing it.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.

Nobody is saying they are outright traitors actively working against the Imperium, which is what Excommunicate Traitoris applies to. However just because they aren't "Excommunicate Traitoris" doesn't mean they aren't renegade. Neither was Lufgt Huron until long after he had seceded his realm.

A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Okay, the Black Templars, a space based chapter, fly away from the Tyranids. Case closed.

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

If youre able to quote GW on this, start one and provide that reference.

But the chance been missed, no new Tyranid dex in sight.....

Nerivant wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Okay, the Black Templars, a space based chapter, fly away from the Tyranids. Case closed.

Discussion ends, case closed. Next thread?

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

It very much can be. The BT's are loyal to what they *believe* are the Emperor's wishes. The BT's as a chapter didn't exist when the Emperor was around.

The BT answer first and foremost to the Emperor, like every space marine did pre-heresy. Their interpretation may be 1 millenia old, still its not as twisted as the imperial cause was from the imperial truth to the
actual way the Imperium operates.

While perhaps true that it's not as twisted as the current Imperial Creed, it doesn't mean that they are loyal specifically to the Imperium. Though lets be honest, the BT's aren't much different. They despise and hate psykers in all forms, which the Emperor had eventually planned to elevate all of humanity to (and something they would likely execute someone for suggesting).

Therefore loyality to the Emperor = loyality to the Imperium.

Again, not necessarily true. If the Templars believe the existence of a particular planet that produces more Psykers than normal is an abomination and must be purged, they will do so, even if the planet had little or no history of other deviancy, and the Imperium may lose out on a valuable source of Astropaths/Battle Psykers/Interrogators/Inquisitors/Astronominican Food.

To question the Emperor never turned out well for those who did.

Nobody is saying they are questioning the Emperor directly. However what the Imperium sees as best for it and what the BT's see as the wishes of the Emperor may not be the same thing.

They actively hunt down threats to the Imperium.

They hunt down what they decide are threats when they want where they want.

iproxtaco wrote:A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

The Astral Claws were decidedly renegade. They weren't declared Excommunicate Traitoris until well after they had seceded and began open warfare agains the Imperium. Not every Renegade SM force is always declared Excommunicate Traitoris either, and especially not right away.

Renegade also doesn't mean they are outright fighting against the Imperium, again, it means they do whatever they want and answer to nobody, regardless of whether its really in the best interests of the Imperium or simply of their particular dogma.

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Backfire wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Exactly. If the Inquisition had solid information on their numbers and brought them to account for it (as they found out that SM's in large numbers was a bad idea and should be avoided) and demanded that they split, they'd likely end up fighting the Inquisition and ultimately likely other Space Marines rather than split. It just hasn't happened yet.

Vaktathi wrote: It very much can be. The BT's are loyal to what they *believe* are the Emperor's wishes. The BT's as a chapter didn't exist when the Emperor was around.

Believe? their first High marshal was the first captain of a space marine legion, who walked beside the Emperor personally. Dorn himself
founded the BT at second founding, and its unlikely Gulliman liked the deviation of his codex but had to give in. Maybe the size of the BT comes from a trade-off. The first Black Templars were already IF-space marines when the Emperor was able to voice his wishes.
No need to believe. When did the High lords have their last audience with the Emperor?

Vaktathi wrote:Though lets be honest, the BT's aren't much different. They despise and hate psykers in all forms, which the Emperor had eventually planned to elevate all of humanity to (and something they would likely execute someone for suggesting).

And still accept navigators, astropaths, Grey Knights,.......

Vaktathi wrote: If the Templars believe the existence of a particular planet that produces more Psykers than normal is an abomination and must be purged, they will do so, even if the planet had little or no history of other deviancy, and the Imperium may lose out on a valuable source of Astropaths/Battle Psykers/Interrogators/Inquisitors/Astronominican Food.

Maybe the Grey knights get faster there?

Vaktathi wrote: However what the Imperium sees as best for it and what the BT's see as the wishes of the Emperor may not be the same thing.

The question is, who is the Imperium?
The High lords? the organizations who sent their representatives to form the High lords? The people?

Until you know the wishes of all of these, and those have to be not to contradictionary, you cannot claim the BT aren't caring for the best of the IoM. Because you need to know what is the best for the IoM and how the BT see the wishes of the Emperor to compare them and find out if there is a difference.
Are you able to define what is the best for the imperium?

Vaktathi wrote:They hunt down what they decide are threats when they want where they want.

Like any other chapter.
And any in dependent organization of the IoM.

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

The Astral Claws were decidedly renegade. They weren't declared Excommunicate Traitoris until well after they had seceded and began open warfare agains the Imperium. Not every Renegade SM force is always declared Excommunicate Traitoris either, and especially not right away.

Renegade also doesn't mean they are outright fighting against the Imperium, again, it means they do whatever they want and answer to nobody, regardless of whether its really in the best interests of the Imperium or simply of their particular dogma.

To be listed as Renegade, a chapter has to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris. The Black Templars have not been declared as such, and are not even close. Not being declared Excommunicate for a while is more down to bureaucratic lag and the fact that fighting or destroying the chapter is more important than any 'official' label. If a chapter is openly attacking the Imperium then it's fairly obvious they are traitors.
If a chapter is loyal to the original values of The Emperors and the man himself as a singular figure, and not loyal to the Imperium, they are traitors to humanity. The Black Templars are quite clearly still loyal in that respect, although I do agree that their numbers and extreme zealotry do make them radical.

iproxtaco wrote:
To be listed as Renegade, a chapter has to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

I'm not saying they are officially declared renegade, rather that they could be considered as such if anyone chose to force the issue over several items of note.

The Black Templars have not been declared as such, and are not even close. Not being declared Excommunicate for a while is more down to bureaucratic lag and the fact that fighting or destroying the chapter is more important than any 'official' label. If a chapter is openly attacking the Imperium then it's fairly obvious they are traitors.

Not all chapters that have done this have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Most of the Badab War chapters never were despite waging open war against Imperial institutions and other Marine chapters, and only the Astral Claws were after they went beyond simply waging war and actually flat out renounced their oaths and ties with the Emperor.

1hadhq wrote:Believe? their first High marshal was the first captain of a space marine legion, who walked beside the Emperor personally. Dorn himself
founded the BT at second founding, and its unlikely Gulliman liked the deviation of his codex but had to give in. Maybe the size of the BT comes from a trade-off. The first Black Templars were already IF-space marines when the Emperor was able to voice his wishes.
No need to believe.

And ten thousand years down the line, what have they to go on but legend and myth?

When did the High lords have their last audience with the Emperor?

When did the last Black Templar do so? For that matter, the High Lords are the rightful heirs to the Emperor's political and military power over the Imperium in the aftermath of the Heresy as appointed by the Primarch and regent Rogal Dorn. They are the legitimate ultimate authority on all Imperial matters short of the Emperor himself (who isn't doing much these days)

And still accept navigators, astropaths, Grey Knights,.......

Only grudgingly because the literally can't operate otherwise, and the psykers in their service must be "repentant of the curse of pyschic powers". They won't fight alongside psykers either.

Maybe the Grey knights get faster there?

?

The question is, who is the Imperium?
The High lords? the organizations who sent their representatives to form the High lords? The people?

The High Lords are the ulitmate legitimate political and military authority of the Imperium, as extensions and representatives of the major organizations that make up and operate the Imperium. Theirs is the ultimate authority to decide what is best.

Like any other chapter.
And any in dependent organization of the IoM.

To a degree. Most chapters have specific areas that they are responsible for and are duty bound to respond to any major military need within those areas if requested. The Templars just go wherever they feel like it and have no duty beyond what they decide is their duty to respond to.

To all those debating the Black Templars being renegade, I have started a new thread in discussions to debate the point, and to put this thread back on topic.

Vaktathi wrote:

Backfire wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Exactly. If the Inquisition had solid information on their numbers and brought them to account for it (as they found out that SM's in large numbers was a bad idea and should be avoided) and demanded that they split, they'd likely end up fighting the Inquisition and ultimately likely other Space Marines rather than split. It just hasn't happened yet.

Why you even talking about this? BT are not renegades - they just give a damn about Codex Astartes and the Inquisition all together.
Inquisition knows that and they watch them, but I think that they would never act against BT - they would have more to lose then to gain.