Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can you prune that list down to 1850 or st least 2000 so it fits within the framework we're working with? 2500 points is a completely different meta bracket.

I'm a huge fan of putting 2x Lanceteks ino every Troops unit, just because you also get the additional benefit of denying cover more often, because those Str 8 shots are coming from everywhere, rather than one select location. It also makes it harder for your opponent to hide the rear/side armour when he's surrounded by squads with Str 8 firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've tried to prune down that massive 2500-point list as best I could. I think it's got a little long-range anti-tank to give it some options, and I just have trouble with the idea of running a Wraithwing in broad daylight. I just think that a lucky barrage template is too risky, so the nightfighting will give it at least one turn to close the distance. And I'm a big fan of wound allocation shenanigans with the Wraiths. Personally, I wouldn't use so many troops, but this is just my spin on that previous list. So how about this:

HQ ... points = 325

1x Overlord w/ Warscythe
1x Catacomb Command Barge w/ Gauss Cannon

1x Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe & Mindshackle Scarabs (Goes with unit of 5x Wraiths)

TROOPS ... points = 880

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance & Solar Pulse
5x Warriors
1x Ghost Ark

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
5x Warriors
1x Ghost Ark

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
8x Immortals w/ Tesla Carbines

1x Harbinger of Destruction w/ Eldritch Lance
7x Immortals w/ Tesla Carbines

FAST ATTACK ... points = 720

6x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster & 1x Transdimensional Beamer

6x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster & 1x Transdimenional Beamer

5x Canoptek Wraiths w/ x3 Whip Coils & 1x Particle Caster

HEAVY SUPPORT ... points = 270

1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon

1x Annihilation Barge w/ Gauss Cannon

TOTAL ... points = 2000 exactly

Alright. 17 wraiths, 2 CC HQs, 1 pulse, 4 lances, then the staple 3 barges. Tweaks and such come down to personal preferences.

My eye is immediately drawn to the troops.

2x5 warriors w/Arks
2x7.5 Tesla Immortals

This just bothers me because of the point distribution.
I get that you want 4 homes for your lances, but if you're running a ghost ark, you might be better off keeping your Royal Court as a self contained unit, sticking them in a ghost ark, and putting enough warriors running along side of it to take advantage of the ghost ark reconstruction mechanic.

I lean towards the belief that Night Scythes are the best complement for a wraith wing, as tesla destructor fire is pretty fantastic. I don't want to step on your list, because we're all still pretty green when it comes to the Newcrons; but my opinion is this:

2x10 immortals with night scythes is 540
and 10+ Warriors w/ghost ark is 245
Add your 4 lanceteks+Solar Pulse and you've got 945

Lose the 2 beamers and 1 wraith, and you're even, essentially trading 1 ghost ark and some wargear for 2 night scythes. Yes, you're down a scoring unit - but, and again, just an opinion, all the tesla destructor fire and extra mobility for your immortals is going to balance that out and give change.

I don't mind losing the beamers, as I think they're garbage to begin with -I only included them for a greater wound allocation ability. And I certainly don't mind dropping the troops units down to 3, as I typically only use 3 Troops units in my own lists.

My apprehension comes from moving the Lanceteks to a single unit, simply because I like to have the Str 8 firepower spread out, so that it can't be easily targeted, so that it can hide in units (same idea as a hidden PF) and so that it can come from multiple angles.

Hrmm... Further revision is required...



EDIT: This is only in theory for me, btw- I'm a very hardcore proponent of gunline necrons.

I ran something very similar last night against a venom spam DE list and found the NS to be worth it. I had min squads of immortals in them (points misspent elsewhere) but found the extra tesla shots and fast speed to be very useful.

Haven't tried the warrior blob with lance court in the ghost ark yet, for the same reason. I'd prefer to have 2 x more hulls on the field and 2 x units that can target differently.

Btw, wraiths did great against everything on the DE side, but that many lance shots and fast moving vehicles were tough.

How is everyone using the NS? I had 2 in reserve to come in and assist on weak sides (move, drop troops in cover, tesla something......then get shot down).

azazel the cat wrote:Better to drop the number of Lanceteks down to 2x per troops unit. It'll also let you keep them alive longer, as 2x Laneteks and 5x Warriors means you need to take 5x wounds before your first Lancetek dies, whereas a Lancetek dies on the first wound in the Royal Court.

The lancetecks are in the ghost arks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the night scathe idea, list in a few


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hq-640
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
Overlord, warscythe-100
CCB-80
x4 Lancetecks-140
x4 Lancetecks-140
Troops-673
x5 Warriors-65
x5 Warriors-65
x5 Warriors-65
x6 Warriors-78
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Night Scythe-100
Fast-685
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x6 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
x5 Wraiths, x3 Coils-240
total-1998

you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.
I like the alpha strike quality of that list. MSU Warriors/Scythe Spam - by the way, has anyone come up with a suitable conversion yet?

I saw this on Ebay.

http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/Necron-Night-Doom-Scythe-conversion-Warhammer-40k-Doomscythe-Nightscythe-Style-2-/200684661460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb9bcead4

junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.

I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either

Cpt Stubbs wrote:I saw this on Ebay.

http://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/Necron-Night-Doom-Scythe-conversion-Warhammer-40k-Doomscythe-Nightscythe-Style-2-/200684661460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb9bcead4

That is a gorgeous conversion model. And reasonably priced for custom work! What went into that? An Annihilation Barge and a Tau Pirhana?

Over 9000! wrote:

junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.

I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either

I think the benefit of at least one turn of night fighting will be worth it, just to protect you while you close the distance.

Over 9000! wrote:

junk wrote:you may want to squeeze 2 solar pulses in there.

I thought the same thing at first but correct me if I'm wrong but don't you need to be on the board to use solar pulses, scythes have their occupants in reserves. You could nuke a scythe nd have one warrior squad footslogging with two pulses but that might hurt the list more then help. Not sure about that either

I assumed that you need to be on-board or in a transport with Firepoints to use the power based off earlier rulings with Marine Librarians not being able to use psychic power from inside a Land Raider as it has no FirePoints. As the NS is closed topped and has no FirePoints (at work so can check the dex) it sounds like the pulse would be unusable when in a unit deployed in a nightscythe

Same would apply when held in reserve, as it is not actually in the field yet so cannot apply its affects to whats going on the table.

However if thats incorrect........


Great Night/Doom scythe conversion, though looking a bit overbalanced on the front it actually work. Not sure what the body and cockpit section is from though, my first thought was a Wave serpent but maybe its something from forgeworld (New Eldar Vehicle)?

If you're not on the table using a solar pulse would be a waste -the enemy can't shoot at what isn't there.

Also solar pulse isn't a shooting attack, and as such closed-topped transports have no detrimental effect on using them.

tetrisphreak wrote:If you're not on the table using a solar pulse would be a waste -the enemy can't shoot at what isn't there.

Also solar pulse isn't a shooting attack, and as such closed-topped transports have no detrimental effect on using them.

To clarify, I meant that if the cryptek was not on the table but you wanted to provide nightfight to units on the board
ex. Cryptek deployed in reserve in NS will rest of army is on the table
In the above, I would assume that you could not use that crypteks solar pulse as it is not on the table.

Good point that solar pulse is not defined as a shooting attack. So that would allow it to go off while the cryptek is inside the NS?

with that in mind, one of the only reasons Ive been running GA is to allow those things to go off in turns 1 & 2 and than sit on the home Obj.

New list for tomorrow:

HQ: 485
- Barge Lord + Warscythe
- Destoryer Lord + Shackles + Warscythe

- 4 x HOD
--1 x pulse

Fast Attack: 635
-5 x Wraith
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 2 x particle caster

-5x Wraith
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 1 x particle caster

- 5 x Wraith w/ D Lord
-- 3 x whip coils
-- 1 x particle caster

Troop: 700
5 x Warrior w/ HOD
--NS
5 x Warrior w/ HOD
-- NS
5 x Immortal w/ HOD
--NS
5 x Immortal w/ HOD + Pulse
--NS

Heavy: 180
2 x Annihilation Barge

I'll double check later but I'm pretty sure being embarked on the ns is the same rules wise as any other closed vehicle - with one exception that the unit inside goes into reserves if the ride is wrecked/ exploded.

I could well be wrong after the FAQ comes out

That list looks pretty good, unless your opponent is spamming land raiders, you have a good TAC list there with a very strong anti-infantry/transport load out. Definitely looking forward to your battle report!

Now, we have gotten off track with all the list tweaking we've been discussing, and It would be cool if we could resume the tactical discussions.

One of the things that slipped through the cracks here is the WW vs. MSU Purifier match up. MSU Purifiers was the most commonly played army of the summer/fall tournament season, although it didn't top as many tournaments as Space Wolves and IG, it's going to be a hurdle that the WW has to overcome.

The most common MSU Purifier lists feature 4x6 purifers in psy-bolt razorbacks, sometimes 4x5 or 5x5. With 2-4 dreadnoughts, and a Nade-quisitor at 1850. These lists have 10+ Psycannons and 4-6 Psybolted Heavy bolters, backed up by the S8 48" Autocannons.

So assuming all things are equal, pitched battle, kill points, What do we want to do in this fight?

junk wrote:That list looks pretty good, unless your opponent is spamming land raiders, you have a good TAC list there with a very strong anti-infantry/transport load out. Definitely looking forward to your battle report!

Now, we have gotten off track with all the list tweaking we've been discussing, and It would be cool if we could resume the tactical discussions.

One of the things that slipped through the cracks here is the WW vs. MSU Purifier match up. MSU Purifiers was the most commonly played army of the summer/fall tournament season, although it didn't top as many tournaments as Space Wolves and IG, it's going to be a hurdle that the WW has to overcome.

The most common MSU Purifier lists feature 4x6 purifers in psy-bolt razorbacks, sometimes 4x5 or 5x5. With 2-4 dreadnoughts, and a Nade-quisitor at 1850. These lists have 10+ Psycannons and 4-6 Psybolted Heavy bolters, backed up by the S8 48" Autocannons.

So assuming all things are equal, pitched battle, kill points, What do we want to do in this fight?

If playing the above........
I would try to go 2nd and deploy in a refused flank depending on his deployment (I would assume central, but would hope for spread out)
Deploy along the table edge on one corner to maximize NightFighing affect (pulse in his turn), cross fingers and hope they have trouble seeing
Then move up 12 along short table edge to be just within range of a small portion of his army, hop out units with HOD, blast the units within range (aiming for anything clustered up to take advantage of tesla arc)
-- My hope is to create enough wreckage between remaining units and my midfield units to stop them charging in their turn.
Remaining functional NS would embark 1 - 2 units and move them further up the table edge to other points of cover and potentially inside his deployment zone. Aim is to create a half arc from my deployment zone and up to his deployment zone bending out towards the short table edge, with the 24" point hitting about center of the board & his deployment zone. While a full envelopment would be great, a half with S8 and S7 weapons all along one side of his flank should work just fine.

Then hope the dice rituals performed the previous night did their job and I roll well enough on shooting......

The night scythe does give you the mobility to pull off your positioning, so that's one thing you can count on. If he chooses to concentrate on your advancing scythes he's going to get wrecked by uninjured wraiths.

You can't count on his deployment cooperating with your counter-assault strategy, but you can force moves with your HQs.

Ideally we want our opponent to deploy offensively: forward and loose; for the GK it's a sound strategy thanks to the board coverage provided by razorbacks, while keeping your purifiers in position to assault in any direction.

By taking the GK player from one flank in a KP game, we have the freedom to bring the full strength of our army against a fraction of his.

Any MSU purifier list deploying first against a wraithwing will learn after a game or two to castle, denying us the advantage of our mobility and force us to fight on a more direct playing field.

This is where the HQs come into play. Obviously, sweep attacks from our CCB + warscythe assaults; and destroyer lords splitting off from wraiths become our 'line breakers'. Sacrificed to the gods of armor penetration. Ideally we want our HQ's up in his Psyflenought house, breaking his fire support. But if we can't reach them, we want to take out his razorbacks.

If we can get his army on foot while our transports are still intact, we've got this in the bag, our backbone is jump infantry and anti-infantry guns.

With Razorbacks or Psyflenoughts out of commission we've limited his effective range to within our own, and the annihilation barges can clean up the mess once they come out of night fighting or simply move into range. Against a castled GK player, we want our wraiths on the edge of their threat range, not wasted on vehicles. Against purifiers, you need the charge.

If you've got a royal court in there, you use those shots on power armor, and keep the fight with the purifiers a shooting battle. Gauss Cannons and TL Tesla Destructors will kill marines, no matter what force weapon/psyker power they've got. Let your wraiths eat those dreadnoughts before they ID all the wraiths.

If you've got scarabs in there (2x6 wraiths + 10 Scarab list) go on and give those scarabs away. They're cheap, expendible, and annoying for your opponent; with the power to de-mech an army, they naturally become a high priority target, which is wonderful, because you don't need them, but your opponent hates them.

If your opponent chooses not to castle, but to deploy in the typical optimum configuration for a purifier list, with a wide threat range and an aggressive stance, then by all means, take him from the flank and chew your way up his line.

Any other considerations?

I expect GK players to step up and take issue with this analysis...

ShotgunFacelift has the best of it, I think, using the wing to envelop from a flank. The concern being concentrated fire from psyflenoughts and psycannons against the outstretched portion of the army.


What about something completely different, anyone have concerns against match ups with Tyranids?

A matchup against genestealer horde nids would be somewhat difficult but the strategy would only change by delaying movement up the board until the infiltrating units have been mauled or areas of the board have been cleared.

The Hive Guard (shooty thing) would make a mess of the Av11 units so the NS would have to be held in reserve until they have been removed.

I have serious doubts about destruction crypteks. 35 points, right? For s8 ap2. I dont know, I mean after the obligatory solar pulse guy I dont see the value in additional 35 point s8 ap2 shots.

Consider 4 destro crypteks, one with solar pulse...

Or 1 destro cryptek with solar pulse, and a 105 point block to buy something else. Like another scythe for its average 5.33 s7 hits versus 2 s8 ap2 hits that the 3 crypteks get.

To me, destro crypteks are basicly jokero weaponsmiths. 35 points, not great in cc, but with a versitle shooting attack (s8 ap2 or s9 ap2 with longer range). Its just the destro crypteks dont buff the squad, and dont have 2 other weapon options, and are capped at 5.

The big problem I see with removing the HoD crypteks is that you are basically losing a lot of dedicated anti-tank in the list. Now while I myself will be messing around with a slightly toned down version of the dedicated Wraithwing, I still want a reasonable amount of Crypteks in the list. When you put Wraiths in you need some shooting to crack transports allowing the Wraiths to munch the contents...much like nids do.

For me an 1850 list will look like:

Anrakyr
CC Barge

RC 1
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

RC 2
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse

10x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals

5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
1x Particle Caster

5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils

10x Scarabs

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Comes to 1850. While you lose a lot of the alpha striking capability when employing Night Scythes the addition of Scrabs punish a mechanized foe who plays too aggressively. Having a 2nd Solar Pulse also allows you to maintain positional domination over an opponent which is hugely important in objective games. In this variation the Wraiths could be counter-assault vs assault heavy lists (think nids with a high amount of stealers or Mech DE with Wyches). Depending on your opponent you can sit back and gain a KP advantage by knocking out vehicles or push aggressively with your Wraiths and push out onto objectives if they get their S8+ from a few key sources (looking at Long Fangs and GK Dreads here).

What do you guys think?

Lukus83 wrote:The big problem I see with removing the HoD crypteks is that you are basically losing a lot of dedicated anti-tank in the list. Now while I myself will be messing around with a slightly toned down version of the dedicated Wraithwing, I still want a reasonable amount of Crypteks in the list. When you put Wraiths in you need some shooting to crack transports allowing the Wraiths to munch the contents...much like nids do.

For me an 1850 list will look like:

Anrakyr
CC Barge

RC 1
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

RC 2
3x HoD Crypteks, 1 Solar Pulse

10x Immortals
5x Immortals
5x Immortals

5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils
1x Particle Caster

5x Wraiths
3x Whip Coils

10x Scarabs

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

Comes to 1850. While you lose a lot of the alpha striking capability when employing Night Scythes the addition of Scrabs punish a mechanized foe who plays too aggressively. Having a 2nd Solar Pulse also allows you to maintain positional domination over an opponent which is hugely important in objective games. In this variation the Wraiths could be counter-assault vs assault heavy lists (think nids with a high amount of stealers or Mech DE with Wyches). Depending on your opponent you can sit back and gain a KP advantage by knocking out vehicles or push aggressively with your Wraiths and push out onto objectives if they get their S8+ from a few key sources (looking at Long Fangs and GK Dreads here).

What do you guys think?

A 1850 I would really look into a destroyer lord just for the sake of points efficiency. While losing the 2nd solar pulse you get much of the same utility (at & cc line breaker) while saving approx 45 points. In the above I would put that into extra bodies in the small immortal squads. Alternatively you could replace aranykr with a regular barge lord and and redistribute the points, but I understand his utility and previous performance in your other games.

Even then, there isn't much I'd change about the list.

But here's a question:

1. How would you handle a venom spam list (other than watching youth immortal squads get hosed down in t1?)
2. How would you play against your normal nid list (lots of infiltrating steamers, ymargls [little astards] swarm lord, etc, etc)

Venoms don't actually get a turn 1 alpha strike. With Night Fight I force them to push and go flat out. Essentially I get an alpha strike on them (though they do get a bunch of cover saves). If they sit back then it's a shooting match where they can't see for 2 turns. It would be tough but by forcing the DE forward I can cherry pick the targets that absolutely have to die with shooting, tarpit a few others with Scarabs and deny assaults with Wraiths.

Knowing how nids work I would have to say vs the mass Stealers that I run would probably be the most competitive. Due to the conga line approach you can hit them hard with the Wraiths while denying a lot of return attacks. Alternative to that is to shoot them and if they take from the front then they are possibly denying themselves the charge (or again at least they won't be charging turn 1 for fear of not getting enough attacks in). They should not take form the rear since they could lose their FnP buff and reforming the conga wastes movement forward. Not saying I can deal with all the stealers in 1 go, but if you can make enough of a dent then Wraiths can finish off the survivors.

Oh and I would suggest giving a unit of scarabs a go instead of that 3rd units of Wraiths. Against certain builds Scarabs have a huge threat priority and take pressure off the Wraiths in certain competitive matchups...Scarabs can't be ignored by GK Dreads and vs multiple AV14 Wraiths will struggle while Scarabs will just eat it alive (or at least make it so your other stuff pens easier). Just somethig to playtest.

I think the venoms will still get the alpha Luike, not sure how you are figuring the slower list gets the alpha. Realistically with a scarab wall in deployment I would move 12" to 24" range (66% chance with nightvision of seeing) and tempting the scarab charge or 27" (48% chance of seeing) and whittle the scarabs or the wraiths (if deployed aggresively). However, I would probably hold the blasterborn inside 1 turn as I need to be at 18" for them and I don't want them all to die to scarabs/wraiths counterattacking. Hence, limiting my t1 alpha. The way it worked last time, I got a brutal t2 alpha once the wraiths had been cleared by the venoms. Dark Lances do a similar thing from a distance to try to silence the vehicles. Nightfighting we don't mind so much.

Still a tough matchup I think. Remember the other game was DOW, hence I turboed.

I tend to agree with Cmac's interpretation of a DE reaction to an aggressive WW central deployment; you'd have more luck with an oblique approach, forcing the lengthwise deployment of the DE to use turns of movement to compensate for their reduced range under Night Fight. The Venom list's high mobility counteracts the typical advantage of the WW, and forces you to use it like a wrecking ball, coming in tight and hard from the short edges.

The advantage swings back to WW if the DE sacrifices it's mobility to concentrate fire on your vanguard (thus castling), as you'll be able to engage multiple targets faster, maximize the tesla effect, and limit the effectiveness of his shooting by forcing the dilemma of which of your multiple High priority targets to concentrate on.

As it stands I have only played vs competitive Mech DE the once and didn't do so well so my tabletop experience on this limited (although that is soon to change now we have Cmac joining the dark side).

I'm now actually thinking about an alternative list which includes 4 Night Scythes (and 3 Annihilation Barges) at 1850. Actually it's very similar to ShotgunFacelifts list with a few alterations. The more I think about Tesla Destructors the more I like them. Great vs DE but are also good enough to handle Rhinos. Factoring mobility of Nightsycthes it also seems really easy to get side shots on Chimeras.

Yeah, learning to hate that tesla arcing thing, especially if the dice are rolling hot. Its very difficult with the saturation of units that would normally all jump out for the "going to take 1/3 of your points turn 1" to spread out sufficiently to mitigate the tesla damage. It's just physically impossible to spread out enough and still get the shots in I require.

We roll a venom spam 2k v WW 2k tomorrow (shotgunfacelift). A battle report could come with pro's cons etc. I'm planning on trying Vect +Baron ;-). Want that 1st turn and a bit of CC grunt (wyches throw handbags).

In the WW list, be careful if you intend on using 2 wraiths units and 10 scarabs. I found the multicharge of the wraiths and scarabs with a couple of units of wyches ended up with a bunch of fearless saves (16 or so) on each unit of wraiths.

I'm anxious to see that battle report!

I don't mean to change the subject, because I'm enjoying the DE and Tyranid input; but tomorrow night I've got a match up with my WraithWing vs a 7 drop pod army.

My List:
Junk's WW V6 - Fingers crossed.
Anrakyr in CCB
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs
Lance Tek
Pulse Tek
2x6 Wraiths (3 whips, 2 casters)
1 x 10 Scarabs
1 x 10 Eternals
2 x 5 Immortals
2 x Scythes
2 x Annihilation Barge

I don't know the full details of my opponent's list, but I know it includes a thunderfire cannon, 15 sternguard (probably all melta) Pedro, some scout bikes; no dreadnoughts, possibly a second orbital bombardment. I don't want to tailor my list, but I'd love to theoryhammer this to death.

So I figured I'd tap the brain trust for some last minute suggestions for deployment and long strategy. Against Drop Pod armies, In the past, I've played heavy reserves and leave a little bait on the field; but I'd love to see what other people suggest.

Well dude, its your thread, we can only speak from the experience based on the surrounding meta. Its good to hear and see other variations. The first time I played shotgunfacelift he had a unit of 6 wraiths, I was WWP that day was pure CC (harlequins, wyches, talos, 3 max beast squads etc) and after the game I remember thinking; "Wow, wraiths are good". After the game we had a beer and discussed tactics. I though, 1 squad of wraiths is good (fast, brutal, wound allocation, inv save), how about 3? The thoughts were, oh too expensive. How I would make that list is similar to the thought process you have gone through above;

What is important?
I want lots of wraiths.
Hence. 3 max squads, I would increase their cost with wound allocation shenanigans more severe than whats listed above. If I can put a wound (2 wounds) on the layouts above, your precious whip coil fellas will fall faster than if there is complete differentiation. I think you actually only need 2 whip coil guys, put them on either flank when you advance and with a smart charge you can get their effect on the majority of the combatants.

Now, what goes with this.
HQ
Both the CC barge overlord, Anrakyr (cool character but has a big target on his head and is only really brutally effective if you get within 12" and don't ruin his day, 1 character that can reasonably reliably take out 4!! of my transports in a turn needs to be managed), the D lord are solid. Stormlord has some tricks and with the proliferation of vehicles I am running is a real threat, however as an allcomers I think the effect will end up being underwhelming. This 4+ steal may be his best quality but for the price there seems to be better efficiency. The CC barges are nice but I think a D Lord is fast enough to get to the action, especially if he has some ablative wraith wounds.
Court - People seem crazy about this. The solar pulse is good, given. If its necessary to provide some level of safety for the approach then I guess its an overlord in a CC barge, as cheap as killy effectiveness allows with a min size court with 1 pulse. Period. Save your points, they are your cheese.

Troops
Well, yes tesla immortals are nice but really in the WW list the wraiths will clear the troops. I would go min size warrior units in the NS? (the flyer with the tesla arcer). Take 3-4.

So this costs how much? I have no codex but we probably end up with some points to play with at 1500-2000 points.

What can help us?
Heavy
Those barges are good value. However I have found that with the fire proliferation I can break the QS with one shot At hunters then put the pain into them with the multiple shots ravagers to reliably finish. However, I'm then not thinning wraiths.. Take a couple, I don't think you need 3 as these will draw the fire for the NS to get your tesla action down.

Elites
The stalker is looking more and more like its good on paper to me. After a few games, their effectiveness has been minimal (double skulls didn't help shotgun face ;-)).
I think this is your "weak" FOC slot. Maybe nothing here, go more warriors and NS if needed, or HQs.

HQ's
There are a bunch of nice additions here. That WBB option they have (I know it has a different name), is probably the BEST ability in your codex for changing the result of the game. I am learning more and more that to kill a Necron HQ, I have to completely surround you then kill you in CC otherwise imagine this; I take first turn and on the top of turn 5 I shoot your WBB HQ which is hanging annoyingly near my objective (within 6"). You make your roll, reanimate within 3" and contest, take an objective. All out of my control except my previous turns movement to block. However, in turn 5 maybe I haven't got much stuff left and can't.. I think that "ever living"? will turn a loss into a draw, a draw into a win on an uncanny basis. Hence, lets take 2. I would like to say 2 D Lords that move with the move populated (at the time) wraith squads. No solar pulse.

Can someone with a codex please cost this out?

As for your upcoming game against the marines, I make some suggestions below.

Ok, so he has a heavy investment in sternguard.

Depending on deployment type (this is easier to do with spearhead), put the scarabs in a circular shield around the vehicles, use the wraiths sitting just behind the scarabs (castling I guess). His melta heavy sternguard might be able to have a shot at a vehicle but certainly won't get 2d6, hence your QS is quite powerful. His other option is to IK scarabs or whittle wraiths. Either of these you won't really mind too much as you have redundancy in ways of dealing with 3+ marines. Shooting first then a big multi charge with the scarabs and wraiths if needed. However, one squad of wraiths I would send to hunt the Th cannon and other stuff in the area, another hunting the bikes. You should be able to piecemeal milk a victory, his list doesn't sound cohesive (sorry if you are reading). If its DOW, give him second turn if possible and then you can control the game as you know where half the DS stuff is. You can then either Alpha if its in 24" coming on with everything first turn, or refuse flank and avoid them with mobility. Either way, you should be able to fight this one on your terms. If DOW and you go first, roll on into phalanx mode as above.

As for my game with shotgunfacelift tomorrow, here is my list;

DE 2000 points on the dot.

Vect w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (I feel I don't need the ff here as I will either be going 24" or moving 12" and disembarking after which the raider has done its job.
9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (as above)
Trueborn x 4, blasters x 4, venom +sc. x 3 (sorry)
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom +sc, x4
Ravager w ff x 3

Yes, its a list. The point is as a WW player (maybe Shotgunfacelift can post his list), what would you do against this?

cmac wrote:Well dude, its your thread, we can only speak from the experience based on the surrounding meta. Its good to hear and see other variations. The first time I played shotgunfacelift he had a unit of 6 wraiths, I was WWP that day was pure CC (harlequins, wyches, talos, 3 max beast squads etc) and after the game I remember thinking; "Wow, wraiths are good". After the game we had a beer and discussed tactics. I though, 1 squad of wraiths is good (fast, brutal, wound allocation, inv save), how about 3? The thoughts were, oh too expensive. How I would make that list is similar to the thought process you have gone through above;

What is important?
I want lots of wraiths.
Hence. 3 max squads, I would increase their cost with wound allocation shenanigans more severe than whats listed above. If I can put a wound (2 wounds) on the layouts above, your precious whip coil fellas will fall faster than if there is complete differentiation. I think you actually only need 2 whip coil guys, put them on either flank when you advance and with a smart charge you can get their effect on the majority of the combatants.

My initial desire was definitely max wraiths; but I feel like the scarabs are an x factor that I can rely on to draw fire, tarpit, and keep my wraiths free for surgical application. I'm also on the fence about wound allocation vs. redundant whips; 2 whips and improved allocation is better vs. shooting, but 3 whips is better in assault. I'll definitely use the next game to measure the effect. Both points are well appreciated.

cmac wrote:
Now, what goes with this.
HQ
Both the CC barge overlord, Anrakyr (cool character but has a big target on his head and is only really brutally effective if you get within 12" and don't ruin his day, 1 character that can reasonably reliably take out 4!! of my transports in a turn needs to be managed), the D lord are solid. Stormlord has some tricks and with the proliferation of vehicles I am running is a real threat, however as an allcomers I think the effect will end up being underwhelming. This 4+ steal may be his best quality but for the price there seems to be better efficiency. The CC barges are nice but I think a D Lord is fast enough to get to the action, especially if he has some ablative wraith wounds.
Court - People seem crazy about this. The solar pulse is good, given. If its necessary to provide some level of safety for the approach then I guess its an overlord in a CC barge, as cheap as killy effectiveness allows with a min size court with 1 pulse. Period. Save your points, they are your cheese.

The HQ block of this list was the most difficult part of the process. I love D-Lords, they're one of the most cost effective HQs in the game considering everything they bring to the table. I'd love to run 2 of them, but I feel like the strategic advantage of 1 turn of night fighting is going to get me that critical advance that I need to get to effective range. I went with anrakyr primarily because of his potential, but also specifically because he is a priority target, and will draw high strength fire from the barges, scythes and wraiths, that all really deserve a lot of attention. He is a gamble though, and I'm biting my nails about how he will perform.

The Second lance-tek was an afterthought, trying to find a place for 35 points. Dropping Anrakyr down to a standard Scythelord will save 50 points. Combined with the 35 from the extra lance-tek would be enough to field an extra 5 immortals (85).

cmac wrote:
Troops
Well, yes tesla immortals are nice but really in the WW list the wraiths will clear the troops. I would go min size warrior units in the NS? (the flyer with the tesla arcer). Take 3-4.

So this costs how much? I have no codex but we probably end up with some points to play with at 1500-2000 points.

5 Warriors in a night scythe is 165
5 immortals in a night scythe is 185
The 20 points for 3+ saves and Assault 1 24" guns, but actually, I was going to stick gauss blasters on them, figuring that the 2x5 squads would be deposited on objectives early and remain stationary, so the rapid fire limitation isn't a concern, but an advantage if enemies begin to close. The 10x Immortals (eternals) were my foot squad, so they do get the tesla guns, move 6" shoot 24".

I absolutely love night scythes; and taking your combined advice so far, if I were to drop 1 coil, downgrade anrakyr, and ditch the lance tek, I could afford a 3rd. (More Proxies for the proxy throne)

cmac wrote:
What can help us?
Heavy
Those barges are good value. However I have found that with the fire proliferation I can break the QS with one shot At hunters then put the pain into them with the multiple shots ravagers to reliably finish. However, I'm then not thinning wraiths.. Take a couple, I don't think you need 3 as these will draw the fire for the NS to get your tesla action down.

No argument here.

cmac wrote:
Elites
The stalker is looking more and more like its good on paper to me. After a few games, their effectiveness has been minimal (double skulls didn't help shotgun face ;-)).
I think this is your "weak" FOC slot. Maybe nothing here, go more warriors and NS if needed, or HQs.

Agony. The Stalkers are really attractive; but they belong in a warrior phalanx, where the Twin-linking magic can be exploited. My big anti-infantry guns are already twin-linked, and my anti-tank comes in the form of rending, warscythes, and scarabs. So at best, they're 150 point blockers with 2xMulti Meltas; nothing to scoff at, but also not necessary. I do like them though.

There aren't a lot of options in the elite section that can keep up with this army, Praetorians being one (200 for 5, jump infantry either anti-Teq or anti-mech), Flayed ones (65 for 5) as a distraction, or Deathmarks (95 for 5) as another High Priority threat.

cmac wrote:
HQ's
There are a bunch of nice additions here. That WBB option they have (I know it has a different name), is probably the BEST ability in your codex for changing the result of the game. I am learning more and more that to kill a Necron HQ, I have to completely surround you then kill you in CC otherwise imagine this; I take first turn and on the top of turn 5 I shoot your WBB HQ which is hanging annoyingly near my objective (within 6"). You make your roll, reanimate within 3" and contest, take an objective. All out of my control except my previous turns movement to block. However, in turn 5 maybe I haven't got much stuff left and can't.. I think that "ever living"? will turn a loss into a draw, a draw into a win on an uncanny basis. Hence, lets take 2. I would like to say 2 D Lords that move with the move populated (at the time) wraith squads. No solar pulse.

Can someone with a codex please cost this out?

Dropping anrakyr, the ccb, the royal court would free up 335. A D.Lord with scarabs is 145. The 190 would be probably best employed as 1 night scythe and 1 more annihilation barge; for 2 more tesla destructors and an additional gauss cannon.

cmac wrote:
As for your upcoming game against the marines, I make some suggestions below.

Ok, so he has a heavy investment in sternguard.

Depending on deployment type (this is easier to do with spearhead), put the scarabs in a circular shield around the vehicles, use the wraiths sitting just behind the scarabs (castling I guess). His melta heavy sternguard might be able to have a shot at a vehicle but certainly won't get 2d6, hence your QS is quite powerful. His other option is to IK scarabs or whittle wraiths. Either of these you won't really mind too much as you have redundancy in ways of dealing with 3+ marines. Shooting first then a big multi charge with the scarabs and wraiths if needed. However, one squad of wraiths I would send to hunt the Th cannon and other stuff in the area, another hunting the bikes. You should be able to piecemeal milk a victory, his list doesn't sound cohesive (sorry if you are reading). If its DOW, give him second turn if possible and then you can control the game as you know where half the DS stuff is. You can then either Alpha if its in 24" coming on with everything first turn, or refuse flank and avoid them with mobility. Either way, you should be able to fight this one on your terms. If DOW and you go first, roll on into phalanx mode as above.

Solid advice, but wouldn't I rather give him 1st turn?

cmac wrote:
As for my game with shotgunfacelift tomorrow, here is my list;

DE 2000 points on the dot.

Vect w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (I feel I don't need the ff here as I will either be going 24" or moving 12" and disembarking after which the raider has done its job.
Baron w 9 wyches, hek, ag, raider no ff (as above)
Trueborn x 4, blasters x 4, venom +sc. x 3 (sorry)
Warriors x 5, blaster, venom +sc, x4
Ravager w ff x 3

Yes, its a list. The point is as a WW player (maybe Shotgunfacelift can post his list), what would you do against this?

This is going to take some thought, that's a nasty list. First impression, I'd definitely want to try to tackle that obliquely under cover of night fighting, deploying tight and at a comfortable distance in the hopes you move into a tighter formation to concentrate fire, or at least move into my comfort zone; I might actually want to swap whip coils and particle casters, and DS the wraiths to take pot shots and draw lance fire away from my vehicles chasing down vehicles if they don't get wiped, or DS the Night Scythes to use those tesla destructors against the venoms or ravagers; god that's risky. Imotekh would make me a little more comfortable in a defensive game, as he complements warriors, and with your model count, his lightning storms become a consideration, on top of his extended night fighting, which compensates for the superior range of the lances to some degree. Anrakyr is still fun though, so he'd come up behind the annihilation barges to try to put a hole in your line. It's a tough match up, I would love to get into this fight!