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I find this thread very informative.

I wouldn't give up on the night fighting too soon.
Yes, it is a wraith wing.
But 3 maxed squads of wraiths is only half the army.
The other half would really like night fighting.

I caught turn 3 and 4 today of necrons vs chaos marines.
The Night Scythes were tearing it up. Being able to move 12" and still fire let them stand off fairly safe and plink away.

I'd go Immotekh, Lord w/scythe CCB, 3x6 wraiths, and 4x5 immortals with night scythes, 2 pulses, 1 tek with re-roll, and sprinkle in lances.

With units in scythes, it doesn't matter that they are small. With 4-5 turns of night fighting (re-roll to keep it going, then pulses) the immortals who do go into reserve typically don't get shot. One unit (immotekhs unit) has gauss.

AV13 barges is better than AV11; but if you factor in the effect of night fighting, the AV11 wasn't getting shot at all that much.

Immotekh vs not...
IMO, he's only worth it with the re-roll to keep the night fighting going. The lightning he rains down does help quite a bit.

Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.

Oh, nighting fighting for most of the game and a CBB was brutal. That thing was picking off the power fists before the wraiths moved in.

I get that the destroyer lord is bad ass, but I'd rank the CCB assassin higher.

-Matt

Necrontyr40k wrote:

junk wrote:
Just cut 1 wraith from each squad, there's enough meat in there to play a second destroyer lord and put scarabs on both.

That is a viable alternative. The reason I prefer mine is because ... drum beat... I do not think the mindshackles are that great... (jumps in his CCB and zooms away before the rotten eggs can start flying).

Here is my reasoning. What is the purpose of the wraiths? To rend light vehicles and rip up GEQ and MEQ. Wraiths do not want to fight termies. Wraiths do not want to fight characters. Wraiths hate multi-wound models, because they cannot ID them (S6 only). So, the last thing they should be doing is fight a tough CC squad. The tough CC squads are generally slower than wraiths, and so generally avoidable.

So, why should I pay 40 pts for two lords' mindshackles?

Well, 2 reasons, and these are really the only 2 reasons.
1. The mindshackle scarabs have a good chance of neutralizing upgrade characters and their ID weapons, including ICs attached to squads (better than average against LD10).
2. The destroyer lord is a keen armor buster; and can be concealed in a squad of wraiths (protected by their 3++) and either split off to wreck heavy armor or kept in to provide 3-4 power weapon attacks.

But again, I'm not saying it's the be-all end-all, I think that the difference between 5 and 6 wraiths is a trade off for the extra war scythe. I'm sure the list will work well either way.

I guess it's time we Really Focused on HQs - Theory hammer the crap out of them Vs. Destroyer Lords

The first thing we have to really figure out is Night Fighting as it applies to the wraith wing:
I'm of the opinion that 1 round of Night Fighting would be a huge benefit to a wraith wing. More than that, I don't think it's necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
The wraithwing fights at 18-24", and demands a tight formation. 1 round of night fighting should get you into that range.
The benefit of Multiple rounds of night fighting is to protect your army from Long Range shooting in defensive lists, like Tau, SW Long Fang lists, MechDar, Dark Mechdar, and Mech IG.
It's also an expense which does nothing against armies like Draigowing, Blood Angels, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons; and horde armies like Ork, FootDar, Foot Guard, Tervigon Spam

If we really want that 1 round of night fighting, here are some ways to get it that we should probably theory hammer into the ground.

RE: CCB Scythelord w/ Pulsetek (235)
As discussed, complements the wraithwing in movement speed and effect; I'm a fan

+ The scythelord brings a Pulse-tek that provides 1 Turn of Night Fighting and a LasCannon for 55 points. Not bad
+ The Scythelord can crack heavy armor or assassinate key models
+ The Scythelord is well protected (AV 13, Flat Out cover save)
Only 90 points more than a destroyer lord for a lot of benefits, 110 if you decide to stick scarabs on him and have him disembark to join wraiths before assaults.


RE: Immotekh
I reached out to Reecius via PM and he also advocated the addition of Imotekh, so I think it's something that needs to be seriously theoryhammered.

+ Multiple rounds of night fighting aren't necessary because this army fights at 18-24", but they certainly don't hurt. Weighing his cost vs. 2 pulseteks justifies his price tag.
+ Seizing on a 4+ is Very Attractive for this list.
+ His Lightning stom Gimmick is a boon to an army lacking long range shooting (even if it is a crap shoot) And helps against a lot of the lists that would give WW a hard time.
- No warscythe, No RezOrb, we do not take advantage of his Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs
- Costs 225, 265 with reccomended chronometron.
- Even in A CCB he contributes nothing other than his special rules.

RE: Nemesor - I've been talked out of this one, In this army he's just not cost effective.
+ Special abilities are useful and versatile throughout the game
+ Brings a rez orb, and Allows royal court
- With Pulse-Tek, he costs 240, No Warscythe, so no value in CCB
- Since we do not take advantage of Phased Reinforcements, he has no place other than a slightly handy support unit, an overpriced Rezlord

RE: Anrakyr w/CCB - I love this guy, but is he worth it?
+ Does everything a Scythelord does, in addition to upgrading 1 squad of immortals with a somewhat useful upgrade
+ Mind in the machine is amazing and pretty reliable (3+)
+ Allows for a royal court, fits well in a CCB
- Total cost with Pulse-Tek and CCB = 300 (65 points more than the standard overlord)


Other HQ choices:
Illuminator, The Vargard, Orikan, Trazyn; anyone see any value in considering these guys?


Taking everyone's suggestions, and my own preferences into account, I'm currently looking at:

Junk WW V5
Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
1x5 Wraiths (4 whips, 4 casters) 235
2x5 Wraiths (3 whips, 4 casters) 550
1x10 Tesla Immortals 170
2x5 Tesla Immortals (Night Scythes) 370
2x Annihilation Barge 180

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The other half would really like night fighting.

The shooty component has range of 24". Stormy helps them hide, as the opponent has to roll above average to spot and shoot them. But, he hinders them as well, because they themselves have to roll above average to hit at max range. So, I'd say he is neutral, unless we are talking about a phalanx list, where you want to get the arks and warriors within 12" for double-tap.

The only way to solve the above is pop a pulse on your own turn to cancel Stormy temporarily, but that will only get you two turns if Stormy is lucky and keeps going.

I caught turn 3 and 4 today of necrons vs chaos marines.

Are you sure the CSM were using their searchlights? Are you sure the game was played according to the rules?

I'd go Immotekh, Lord w/scythe CCB, 3x6 wraiths, and 4x5 immortals with night scythes, 2 pulses, 1 tek with re-roll, and sprinkle in lances.

That is a viable variant, but it sacrifices the shooting of the immortals - if they stay in the wormholes, they don't shoot. But, you get more kites with tesla for the points.

Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.

Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?

Oh, nighting fighting for most of the game and a CBB was brutal. That thing was picking off the power fists before the wraiths moved in.

Again, check the rules. Stormy hurts his own shooting unless you use pulses. Either he gets lucky and you use up the pulses to cancel him on your own turns, or he gets unlucky and you use the pulses on the opponent turn. At least, this is how I read his rules.

CCB is good if you have the points for it. The army above facing the CSMs must be well over 2000 pts.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.

Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?

I was curious about this too, so I stuck it up on YMDC.
My feeling is No, because it's not 'an additional' ccw, because wraiths aren't listed as having ccws, just 'phase attacks' Whip coils are not referred to as CCWs either in the text or description, so even with both, I'm afraid that the wraith only gets his base 3. Regardless, the pistols are great for 5 points, even if they don't provide an extra attack, it does give Transport popping power to a squad that realy want's to assault the contents of said transport. It also means that the wraiths rarely have wasted turns.

junk wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Pistols for wraiths: I'd debate the value. Yes, 18 of them for the cost of a barge looks good, but you aren't shooting once in combat. I'd put it pretty low on the list of things to take.

Technically, they are still useful. They are pistols and thus extra close combat weapons, right? Wouldn't they give an extra attack in CC?

I was curious about this too, so I stuck it up on YMDC.
My feeling is No, because it's not 'an additional' ccw, because wraiths aren't listed as having ccws, just 'phase attacks' Whip coils are not referred to as CCWs either in the text or description, so even with both, I'm afraid that the wraith only gets his base 3. Regardless, the pistols are great for 5 points, even if they don't provide an extra attack, it does give Transport popping power to a squad that realy want's to assault the contents of said transport. It also means that the wraiths rarely have wasted turns.

And lets not forgot the wound allocation if you take coils as well.

junk wrote:I like the Flayed...
....with more wraiths?

D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145

O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 195

Pulsetek - 55

3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495

1x 6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Caster, Beamer - 250

2x 2x Wraiths, Coil - 160

Doom Scythe/Monolith - 200

1475-1500pts

(Loose out on the Scarabs - Scarabs are quite superb - 10 Scarabs or 4 wraiths, essentially).

My understanding of the basic rules is that the only time a pistol does not add an extra CC is when you already have two close combat weapons. The point being, humanoids only have two arms, so having a third weapon gives you options in what you use to attack with, but you cannot use more than one "extra close combat weapon" at the same time. Since wraiths are not mentioned to have two close combat weapons already, the extra pistol must count as +1A. I bet that is one of the first things that will get FAQed.

But, that is a discussion for another part of the forum.

Necrontyr40k wrote:My understanding of the basic rules is that the only time a pistol does not add an extra CC is when you already have two close combat weapons. The point being, humanoids only have two arms, so having a third weapon gives you options in what you use to attack with, but you cannot use more than one "extra close combat weapon" at the same time. Since wraiths are not mentioned to have two close combat weapons already, the extra pistol must count as +1A. I bet that is one of the first things that will get FAQed.

But, that is a discussion for another part of the forum.

You need two close combat weapons. A pistol is one close combat weapon. I cannot see any other mention of an additional close-combat weapon on the wraith entry.

Regarding HQ, for me the top runners for leading the wraithwing are destroyer lord, scythelord in CCB, and Anrakyr in CCB.

When the points are tight, e.g. in small games, I think the destroyer lord is enough. He meshes well with the wraiths since he is jump infantry, has the warscythe, and has the preferred enemy (everything). All that for 125 pts is pretty good. His only weakness is he cannot take a court, and thus has no access to crypteks and solar pulse. So, he only works if night fighting is left to chance.

The overlord (90) with warscythe (10) and tachion arrow (30) clocks at 130 pts, so Anrakyr gets furious charge, counter-attack, mind in the machine, and pyrrian immortals for just 35 pts. With that in mind, Anrakyr is a steal. So, Anrakyr is clearly the winner there in terms of point efficiency. However, both of them need a CCB to get anywhere, so they actually come with 80 pts on top as a requirement. This means 245 for Anrakyr. On the upside, they allow a cryptek with solar pulse.

The question is, is Anrakyr in a barge worth 2 destroyer lords? My guess is no.

Zahndrekh and Stormy are on the expensive side for my taste. They may make more sense in games above 2000 pts.

Razerous wrote:

junk wrote:I like the Flayed...
....with more wraiths?

D-Lord, Mindscabs - 145
O-Lord, Sythe, Mindscabs, Command Barge - 195
Pulsetek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Sythes - 495
1x 6x Wraiths, 2 whip coils, Caster, Beamer - 250
2x 2x Wraiths, Coil - 160
Doom Scythe/Monolith - 200
1475-1500pts

(Loose out on the Scarabs - Scarabs are quite superb - 10 Scarabs or 4 wraiths, essentially).

So, lets extrapolate; to fit it in with the current discussion (1850) you've left room to up the wraith count. I'm going to suggest cutting the Beamer, as I think it's a piece of garbage, and we'll figure it out from there, if it's just there for wound allocation we can do the same thing by just varying the coils/casters, 1 naked, 1 caster, 1 coil, 3 both.

Razerous List scaled to 1850
D-Lord, Mindscarabs - 145
O-Lord, Scythe, Mindscarabs, Command Barge - 195
Pulse-Tek - 55
3x 5 Warriors, Night Scythes - 495
2x6 Wraiths, 4 whip coils, 4 Casters- 540
1x5 Wraiths, 3 Coils, 3 Casters - 220
Monolith or Doom Scythe- 200/175

Now, 3 warriors in Scythes obviously should not be disembarking, as they're too fragile; so the only shooting in this list comes from 3 night scythes and the monolith/Night Scythe.
The monolith, I understand, will be a gateway for warriors trapped in reserve after the scythes are destroyed.
Since the monolith doesn't keep pace with the movement speed of the rest of the army, it will have to be deployed via Deep strike in order to impact the game (risking mishap, or irrelevance if it's stuck in reserve)
However, if deployed early enough and positioned well enough, it can have some impact as a mobile wall, it's gauss flux arcs are not tremendously attractive as weapons. 12 bolter shots essentially. And the "portal to New Jersey has a d6" range, which also is underwhelming. So Let's look at the doom scythe instead.

Doom Scythe: AV 11, supersonic flyer - so It can definitely keep pace with the army. Its death ray is potentially so powerful that it probably just became Target #1. Assuming the conservative interpretation of the rules, the death ray can impact an average of 7 models. Pretty nice, but in order to do so, it's got to be within 12" of those models meaning that is will always be subject to return fire. It's relatively safe to assume that you may only get 1 shot with a night scythe; and in order for it to really be worth its points, that shot has to be effective. If you manage to keep it alive for 3 rounds however, it's probably the best unit in your army.

The choice to back up wraithwings with annihilation barges was a pretty important one. Each barge provides 4 S7 Tesla-Arc shots at 24", it's AV13 which means it can take a little punishment, and it's a skimmer, which means it can keep pace with the army. Once it's in position, it can bring its not insubstantial secondary weapon to bear (I like the gauss cannon, but pretty much either one is fine), and works equally well as Anti-transport and Anti-Infantry, with the str to put wounds on MCs. Not glamorous like a doomsday ark or doom scythe, but a very solid HS choice at a very low price.

Now, you have 3 night scythes in the list, which do have twin linked tesla destructors; and that fills the same role as the A. barges, but they are pulling double duty as both troop transports and fire support; essentially very expensive razorbacks. While they will draw fire, they can't take much of it, and that leaves you high and dry with no other fire support to speak of.

Still, with your 3 night scythes, 1 doom scythe, 3 units of wraiths, and 2 CC HQs; you do have a substantial alpha strike; and even though it's kind of a glass cannon, it might still do the job.

Now to scale it back down to 1500, I guess the only thing to do is lose the small wraith squad and the destoyer lord. This version is a little too risky for me, but maybe the approach could be improved? Scythe-wing?

Good thread. Keep it going please! Learning lots of good stuff.

It's made me think a lot about the scythes so far, which is great because I had figured I wouldn't mess with them until 6th edition, when the rules for flyers are likely going to be clearly established.

Using a Scythe-wing approach, we definitely want to go back to Imotekh and definitely add a chornometron, because we want night fighting all game. It may not be viable at 1850, because scythes are so expensive... but screw it, let's play.


Scythe/Wraith Wing, Will it blend?

Imotekh: 315 + Chrono-tek, Pulse-tek
4x5 Warriors in Scythes (660)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 4 coils, 3 Casters (265)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 4 Casters (260)
2 Doom Scythes (350)

The entire game is predecated on maintaining night fighting for as long as possible, and using Aerial assault as much as possible; the wraiths broadside the weakest part of the enemy's defenses, while the scythes concentrate on the biggest threats. Imotekh does nothing but hides and and tries to get lucky with lightning.

I think we are making progress but we are still confused about night fighting, and that is a critical issue for HQ selection and points allocation.

For the third time, Stormy hurts his own army by the night fight rules. Every turn in which his power remains active requires a solar pulse on the necron half of the turn, to cancel the effects. Otherwise, half the 24" tesla will fail to see the enemy! And we do not have searchlights, acute senses, or night vision! So, it goes like this:

Turn 1: Stormy automatically succeeds, necrons need a solar pulse on their turn half.
Turn 2: Stormy keeps going on 4+. If he succeeds, necrons need another solar pulse on their turn half. If he fails, necrons need a solar pulse on the enemy half of the turn.
Turn 3: Stormy must roll again. By this time, both crypteks are spent, so if he succeeds, the enemy is blind but so are we. If he fails, both sides see each other.

Conclusion: to be effective in night fight with Stormy, you need both crypteks and the advantage is gone by turn 3.

Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.

Conclusion: There is no way to keep night fighting throughout the game without blinding ourselves as well for all but 2 turns.

So, Stormy is no good in a 24" shooting-heavy list. Stormy is good for scarab farming and the phalanx (12" shooting).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If all we want with night fighting is to have it on Turn 1 when wraiths are vulnerable to shooting, all it takes is a single cryptek. Stormy is less good for that (he might succeed on turn 2 and beyond), and is horrendously more expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pay close attention to the wording in Stormy's rule and the pulse rule. Stormy's power works over a GAME turn (both player turns). Pulse works over a turn (a PLAYER turn).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: doom scythes.

Doom scythes are a waste of points. The death ray is too short range. The kite is fragile - it needs to stay 24" away and pelt the enemy, not try to get close and eat meltas and power fists. It is a peculiarity of the codex. Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive. Also, heavy slots are best spend on annihilation barges, which are stupid cheap for their firepower and quantum shielding.

Re: monoliths.

Monoliths are significantly nerfed in this edition. Living metal now only protects them to some extent vs shaken/stunned results. Now they die to lances and meltas. For something that has to be so close to be effective, they are remarkably more fragile. The cost reduction does not compensate enough for the new fragility. They have no place in a wraithwing list because they do not synergize with anything in it. Btw, the warriors/immortals stuck in reserve due to downed kites can simply walk onto the map. Here immortals with tesla are the choice because they can walk 6 and still fire at 24, which means they will be in the fight quickly enough.

Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.

This is exactly my pick, cheap and effective.

Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive.

However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.

I agree that the stormlord is detrimental to both players. That's not under contention.

I stand by WW V5 for now

Anrakyr in CCB W/ Solar Pulse Cryptek (300)
Destroyer Lord w/ Scarabs (145)
1x5 Wraiths (4 whips, 4 casters) 235
2x5 Wraiths (3 whips, 4 casters) 550
1x10 Tesla Immortals 170
2x5 Tesla Immortals (Night Scythes) 370
2x Annihilation Barge 180

I feel like it has enough shooting and enough assault to be a very comfortable TAC list.

I absolutely agree with you about Monoliths, they have no place in this army.

Regarding the stormlord, I don't think there was any confusion that night fighting affected both players. Also, I believe that using pulse-teks on your own turn also negates his lightning storms, which is a terrible waste.

Night Fighting however does something great for us; considering how mobile our army is. It may force the opponent to cluster his units. If the opponent spreads his units out around the table, then we want night fighting to go on for as long as possible, and we can go about bringing our entire force to bear against fractions of his without worrying about Long range attacks from those distant squads.

If the enemy does decide to cluster in response to the night fighting, then we move in and our 16 Twin Linked Tesla Destructor shots can freely arc around his army, while our wraiths Multi-assault.

Now, until we have a few dozen playtests nailed down, I can't really say this with certainty, but I feel like a wraith wing should be deployed tightly, second, and with an eye towards approaching your opponent obliquely from 1 flank. With this approach, we can safely move our attacking units within 12" of the closest enemy models and be protected by night fighting from the remainder.

The more your enemy spreads out, the longer you want to maintain night fighting. Yes it hurts us too, but since we're most effective under 24", it hurts anyone that wants to stay outside of 24"+.

I like 2 pulse-teks, I think the list works fine with 1, and I can live without any; but the idea of sustaining night fighting for 3+ turns is just fine by me as well.

Yes, immotek works better with the Warrior/Ghost ark approach. I think the Immortals/Scythe setup may be superior, and he doesn't belong there.

The scythe/wraith wing idea seems fun though; and consistent night fighting is really a necessity to keep those paper airplanes flying. It's probably not at all competetive; but why not bring it up?













Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:

Alternative: drop Stormy completely and have 2 crypteks to blind the enemy for two turns while keeping everything visible on our turn.

This is exactly my pick, cheap and effective.

Night scythes are stupid cheap for what they do; doom scythes are stupid expensive.

However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.

Okay, assuming we do squeeze a monolith into the list, how do we use it?
It's a 200 point back up plan if we don't deploy it centrally, considering it moves no faster than the foot slogging units it activates, wouldn't it be better to just deploy the immortals outside of the scythes? If the scythes survive they pick them up and supersonic to objectives late game, and if they don't we're counting on the monolith also surviving to pull those units in. In DOW it either walks 6" off the board edge and falls far behind the effective range of the army, or it has to deep strike, with no way to manipulate our reserve rolls, if it doesn't come in before the night scythes die, then it's a race between the immortals in reserve and the monolith. Not to mention that deep striking the monolith means that 200 points of our army is doing nothing until its number comes up. Keep in mind the thing has a massive foot print, and a 2d6 scatter causes a significant risk of mishap.

I

wuestenfux wrote:
However, they are only AV 11 and thus more or less super-overcharged Rhinos. The problem with Night Scythes is that their cargo must go in reserve when they crash, and here the Monolith comes into play which is able to bring the passengers back to the battle field.

Theoretically, yes, but is that a problem in reality? If you want to grab an objective on the first turn, move the kite to it and unload the passengers. It can move 12 and still do it and fire as well at full capacity, and so do the passengers up to 12 with gauss or 24 with tesla. Then the kite is free to do the gunship dance until it gets popped.

If you do not want to get that close that early, do the same idea but move less and drop the passengers someplace forward and behind cover, from where they can march to an objective while firing tesla at full capacity all game.

Regarding the kites being only AV11, look at DE. Their raiders and ravagers are AV10-11, few people bother with shimmer shields, and they still do pretty well, for about the same price and LESS FIREPOWER!

There, I said it - the real secret of the newcrons is that we can be the new DE if the army is built right. We can alpha strike using NS kites spam, we have more dakka, and cheap too (AB and NS are underpriced for their stupid-amazing capabilities). We now have deadly gunships for transports! We also have night fight toys that DE do not have. We don't have wyches, but we have wraiths - ours are more expensive but better in some ways - tougher, multi-wound, rending, stronger, and 3++. I pity the hapless that faces the WW-NS spam.

The real problem of us old Necron players is that psychologically we expect to see the old ways and want to act according to old instinct - be tough, resilient, imperturbable, keep coming back, like the living metal we are. But those days are gone. The new codex is about firepower at the expense of resilience. We are more fragile but we get speed and firepower. So, we are the new DE, just tougher and shootier. That bothers me spiritually but I embrace it intellectually.

Okay, so lets get into strategy.

Again, until any of us actually comes through with the modeling, builds one of these lists, and starts playtesting it (mine wont be ready for 3 weeks at least, and that's assuming that I can find tournament legal stand ins for scythes) we can still theorize.

So, here are some scenarios:

Scenario 1: Against the average opponent in Round 1.
Seize Ground, 5 Objectives, Pitched Battle against a Van. SM player with a Salamander list that isn't quite focused. He Forces you to go first so he can reactively deploy.

Vulkan
2x10 Tacs (Flamer, MM, PF SGT, Drop Pods)
5x Sternguard (2xMelta, 3x Combi Meltas, PF SGT, Drop Pod)
5x Sternguard (2xHF, 3x Combi-Flamers, PF SGT, Drop Pod)
5x Assault Terminators TH/SS + Land Raider Crusader
2x Whirlwinds

Scenario 2: We make it through the first round and go up against the tournament favorite in round 2.
Capture And Control, Dawn of War - The opponent is running a Tony Kopach clone list, and made his last opponent cry. You win the Initiative roll-off.

Njal Stormcaller 245
6 Wolf Guard – Combi-melta x6, Powerfist x6
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
8 Grey Hunters – Meltagun, Wolf standard - Rhino
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack -
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack
5 Grey Hunters – Flamer LazPlazBack
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5
5 Long Fangs – Missile launcher x5

Scenario 3: After that last fight, we pray for an easier match up, and the chaos gods send us:
Annihilation, Spearhead - Forced to Play 2nd by a fluffy Chaos Undivided CSM.

DP Wings, Lash
DP Wings, MOK
1x9 Khorne Berserkers, W/Pfist Skull Champ + Rhino/Havoc Launcher
1x8 Plague Marines + Pfist, 2xPlasma Guns + Rhino/Havoc Launcher
1x7 Thousand Sons, + Sorc w/ Bolt + Rhino / Havoc Launcher
1x6 Noise Marines + Sonic Blasters and PW + Rhino
2x3 Obliterators


Or Invent your own using your favorite list.
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Homework! So, imagine you're bringing your version of the WW to the fight, pick one of these match ups, and write up a pre-game analysis.

Why do you want night fight, even though your guns are only 24"? Beacuse you use your speed to hit an outside edge of the opponent, not moving your whole force across into range at once.
By hitting the edge, most of your shooters are ~18" out or so, but most of your opponents army is 30" or more away. It doesn't totally hide you from enemy fire once you close in, but it does cut your opponents firepower down considerably.

Chaos was playing a cult list (which I didn't know at the time). Havocs on both flanks, 1 land raider and 3x rhinos, + defiler.

Necrons went 2nd, and darkness prevented almost all 1st turn shooting. He flat outted the scythes to the outside.
Turn 2 nightfighting kepts over half of the chaos army from shooting, necrons started popping rhinos.
Turn 3 had necron shooters backed off, again limiting chaos shooting.

This is where I started watching and was thinking that, if he had a ton of wraiths it would be awesome. You can limit (not prevent, just limit) shooting by using the speed of the scythes to jump out on a flank. Anything that moves towards you to shoot is moving into assault range of the wraith wing.
So, is it worth ~300 points to take away half or more of your opponents firepower? Most likely.
Is it worth both of your HQ choices to do it? That is very debatable.

As for the night fighting, if you do take the re-roll, you could use it to try and keep it going, or end it, as you see fit. You then get 2 more turns of night fight control with the pulses.
For slightly less night fighting, I'd go Immotekh and 1 pulse, 1 re-roll. That would leave the 2nd slot open for destroyer lord. Raining down lightning (only on a 6, but hey, you get lots of tries) is really awesome.
Personally, I like the CCB more than the D-lord, just for the range.

Here's a good question for list design,
What the plan for AV14? Glance it to death?
Hope for the really lucky wraith rending hits?
Have the HQ's do it all?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Here's a good question for list design,
What the plan for AV14? Glance it to death?
Hope for the really lucky wraith rending hits?
Have the HQ's do it all?

AV14 is a little bit of a headache, and the HQs have to be the ones to deal with it.
There are no other realistic options in this list.
1-2 shot(s)/turn from the pulse-tek lance(s), a roughly 10% chance per 5xWraiths on a full assault, a roughly 20% Chance per barge to glance (gauss cannon) which wastes the Desructor shots.
Our immortals are most likely majority spec'd with tesla, so that wont help.
The Night Scythes can't hurt it, as only tanks can ram vehicles... which is sad, because I like the idea of supersonic kamikazi attacks.

Your 2 warscythes are the only valid option.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2011/11/necrons-night-fight-and-imotek.html#uds-search-results

If you want, you can take 2 Destruction Crypteks with Solar Pulse instead of Immotek or take them with Immotek. The big bonus of Destruction Crypteks is that Solar Pulse can be used on your opponent's turn; your army can fight in the daylight. The big con is that if you don't take Immotek, you only get 2 turns on night fighting; Immotek has a constant chance of inflicting night fight.

I think we've covered that pretty extensively, but if you have a new argument for or against the stormlord's impact on the Wraith Wing, i'd love to hear it.

The AV14 is a problem in principle. But, since we are looking to take it down in CC, the real important AV is the one on the back facing. There are only the Land Raider and the Monolith that have a AV14 backside, IIRC. I have rarely seen LR on the table and the monolith is now nerfed, so it is doubtful they will be nearly as common as before, especially with the line of new vehicles available.

Still, this AV issue has started me thinking about synergies with scarabs. What about a list like this:

2x (6 wraiths with coils and pistols) = 600
1x (10 scarabs) = 150
1x (3 spyders) =150
2x AB = 180
HQ and crypteks by taste
fill the rest with tesla immortals in night scythes

This list still has a heavy wraith presence (12 instead of 15 or 18), but it has more threats - scarabs with replenishment, lots of tesla destructors. It is a more balanced, hybrid list, which forces the opponent to make many bad choices.

Also, scarabs and wraiths work well together because they move about the same and can multiassault vehicles to make use of entropic strike and rending and S6. A list like that has little to fear of AV14.

if the opponent buys the hype and tries to wipe out the scarabs, he leaves the wraiths and the tesla intact enough to kill him. If he ignores the scarabs, they multiply on the way in and kill his vehicles. If he concentrates on shutting down the tesla firebase, the CC will hit him in full force. If he spreads out firepower, he may end up not hurting anything enough.

I realize this is a hybrid list more than a wraithwing spam, but ultimately we want strong nasty killy lists that make the other armies shake in their boots.

Necrontyr, if you are going to run Spyders at all, you really want to throw the Gloom Prism and Claw on a squad of 3 for wound allocation purposes.

Well, what are some other options at our disposal?

Anything with entropic strike works; if we don't want to give up the fast attack choice, what about a squad of Praetorians with Voidblade/Particle Caster. They're jump infantry so they match our wraiths, 3 attacks on the charge thanks to the additional pistol, entropic strike and rending. 5 of these guys assaulting a stationary AV14 vehicle have a greater than 50% chance of wrecking it.

Do we need the gloom spiders as well as the scarabs? Can we just field the 10 Scarabs?
If we are going to field Spyders, we might as well stick a fabricator claw in there to keep those annihilation barges shooting.
If we do include spyders, do we need more than 1? 1 Spyder gets the extra 2.5" on the Swarm; then is pretty much outpaced by the rest of the army.

Imotekh: 315 + Chrono-tek, Pulse-tek
4x5 Warriors in Scythes (660)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 4 coils, 3 Casters (265)
1x6 Wraiths w/ 3 coils, 4 Casters (260)
2 Doom Scythes (350)

Sorry for not reading every post here, but what about:

Anrakyr in CCB- 245
Pulse Cryptek-55

Overlord with Scythe, Tac Arrow-130
Pulse Cryptek-55

4x7 Immortals-476 (1 is Phyrrhian Eternals)

6 Wraiths with 3 coils-240
6 Wraiths with 3 coils-240
9 Scarabs-135

3x Annihilation Barge-270

Total:1846

You have 2 turns of opponent only night fight and 12 Wraiths. Plus, the anti AV14 problem is mitigated by 2 tac arrows and Scarabs. The list is balanced with strong amounts of anti infantry once those metal boxes start popping. The Phyrrhian Eternals are joined by the other Overlord and can try to bail out squads if push ever comes to shove. The Pulse-teks hide in 2 other Immortal units. Really, with the amount of threats and two turns of night fight I don't think the Immortals will be a top priority much anyway.

junk wrote:

Anything with entropic strike works; if we don't want to give up the fast attack choice, what about a squad of Praetorians with Voidblade/Particle Caster. They're jump infantry so they match our wraiths, 3 attacks on the charge thanks to the additional pistol, entropic strike and rending. 5 of these guys assaulting a stationary AV14 vehicle have a greater than 50% chance of wrecking it.

That is an option, but is pricy to my taste. 200 pts for 5 models with 1W and just 3+ is really fragile expensive.

If you do not want to take the scarabs, entropic can be gained by replacing the HQ warscythe with void blade - rending and entropic. I think it can be done for free - don't have the codex with me. Then the plan is to lower the armor for everybody, e.g. all wraiths, rather than do the killing outright. All that is needed is a few hits regardless of damage rolls, to turn a Land Raider into a rhino. Then tesla can finish it off. Running the warscythe is a bit risky, because a few bad damage rolls can make it ineffective, while losing the model leaves the rest of the army up the creek with the AV14. IMO, entropic is the way to go for heavy AV.

Do we need the gloom spiders as well as the scarabs? Can we just field the 10 Scarabs?
If we are going to field Spyders, we might as well stick a fabricator claw in there to keep those annihilation barges shooting.
If we do include spyders, do we need more than 1? 1 Spyder gets the extra 2.5" on the Swarm; then is pretty much outpaced by the rest of the army.

Spyders are optional. Scarabs can just be run by themselves. They are sacrificial in terms of both fluff and actual tactical use.

Necrontyr40k wrote:
Spyders are optional. Scarabs can just be run by themselves. They are sacrificial in terms of both fluff and actual tactical use.

Well, if we do run

2x6 Wraiths (3xCoils, 5 Casters) 530
10 Scarabs 150

It comes out to be pretty much the same as our 15 wraith config, point wise, and solves AV problems.
It lets our HQs go back to being assassins, and as we know, scarabs and wraiths work well together, so still synergistic.
(it also saves me about $50, as I still have a ton of scarabs from my oldcron army)

Weighing the Scarabs against the Praetorians by cost/benefit that Necrontyr brought up, I suppose I'm in favor of this as a new optimization.
Nod to HawaiiMatt for bringing up the issue.
Is the addition of scarabs preferable to keeping the extra wraiths and switching back to warriors/phaeron for the gauss?

Option A:
HQ Block (1 or 2 pulse-teks)
2-3 units of Immortals (5/5/10 or 10/10 probably)
2 Night Scythes
2x6 Wraiths
8-10 Scarabs
2-3 Barges

Option B:
Big HQ Block (Imotekh/Phaeron/Royal Court with bells and whistles)
Warrior Phalanx (+/- ghost arks)
3x5-6 Wraiths
3 Barges

I'd still like to see people taking their wraith wing up against one of the spec lists and writing up a pre-game analysis.
I'll try to playtest this weekend with proxies.
Anyone making progress on night scythes (I just ordered 2 Tesla Destructors from a bits dealer on ebay, now I need to figure out what I'm gluing them to)

My guess is both options will work. However, my preference is for list A, because I like night scythes better than ghost arks (faster, cheaper, 5.33 S7 arcing hits vs 3 or 6 S4 gauss depending on firing arcs and distance). Also, I feel more confident with 10 immortals with S5 tesla than 13 warriors with S4 gauss - better weapons, better save, no need to pay for phaeron.

Still, field experience will show which build is more viable.

By the way, a lot depends on the firing arcs of the ghost arks. The model looks like arcs are 45 degrees centered along an axis normal to the keel. If this is the case, the arks will have to do ship-of-the-line tactics, including Adm. Horatio Nelson's shenanigans (splitting the enemy line) to fire broadsides in both directions. This is characterful but really awkward in practice. As usual, GW has done a poor job at defining the firing arcs.

I think I have to agree with you here about A over B. Probably because I really want to flex Anrakyr, the scythes are growing on me, and also I feel like warrior spam requires too high of an HQ investment to really maximize wraiths.

Any other glaring holes?
What about a BA DoA list, or a Khorne list?
I think we have the firepower to handle hordes, and the tools to dismantle a mech. Elite armies will likely cause headaches.